I wasn't saying this out of thin air. The poster I was replying to was comparinf Haaland with Haller and tenhag with Guardiola and Klopp.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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On the point of me "policing this thread" that's not been my intention, but I can see how it looks that way. As I explained to you previously, I find it incredibly frustrating that this thread is full of circular debates about transfers and injuries, when I don't think either are particularly pertinent issues when assessing Ten Hag's tenure as manager. At most, they're mitigating factors that should be used in the context of other issues.
Any discussion of tactics, the specifics of Antony's output and place in the side, the whole Varane at left centre-back debacle, etc. are all lost in the incessant cycle of:
and/or
Repeat ad infinitum.
You say that you "don't have that much to say to those who think ETH is primarily responsible for how United play" but the reason I've called you out is precisely because these aren't the discussions you start or involve yourself in. They've been the two I've paraphrased above and, to me, it's come across as pot stirring.
However, even if just to draw a line under this particular discussion, I'll take your word that you've come here in good faith and just found yourself embroiled in the constant cycle of nonsense (because god knows I have). There are people on both sides who've wedded themselves to daft lines of argument, but as a United fan, I can at least sympathise with those who have a semblance of faith in the manager, because it's at least rooted in positivity. A lot on the other side nailed their colours to the "sack him" mast far too early for me to trust them not to do the same if we don't look like title challengers within a season or two with a new manager.
We're talking past each other here I think. My initial response to you was on why EtH allowed the Casemiro transfer then you brought up the EtH quotes regarding transfer control.
Anyways I agree that both EtH and Murtough should be sacked so we can leave it there.
I think you may need to read the post you quoted again. Besides, ETH had Tadic and our own VDB playing false 9. Ajax fans can probably provide more context but given he had those two, Haller and I think Brobbey for a period of time playing as the further forward, there's not much to deduct other than he was pragmatic and used whoever he had available.
Again ETH deserves a lot of criticism but to say 'ETH used Haller = lower tier manager' is bit of a lazy reach.
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Two of ETH's new buys this season started off poorly but have come to life over the last two months. ETH's great buys last season have had issues this season. Two of ETH's buys, one this season and one last season, are dubious at best.
Imagine a universe in which all of ETH's buys performed as expected. Had that been the case, there would be no discussion of sacking him.
Imagine a universe in which all of ETH's buys performed as expected. Had that been the case, there would be no discussion of sacking him.
That’s totally fair enough and you’re right, it has become a thread of people talking past each other.
Also, the main reason I’m here instead of Arsenal Mania is because our fanbase splits into In/Out debates with any minor dip in form. Therefore, I completely sympathise with anyone who feels their call for a bit of patience with their Manager is falling on deaf ears.
28 games into the season and Erik Ten Hags Manchester United have scored less league goals than Rob Edwards Luton Town…
Didn’t you hear?! Injuries!!
You disagreed to this original post.
The original point was the above. I was merely pointing out that actually Rangnick started off very well. He wasn't a total disaster at all. He actually has the same length of unbeaten run in the league than ETH has managed in his time here (6 games). Was he much worse than ETH has managed this season?
Manager | Win Ratio | Loss Ratio | CS | Games | W | D | L | GF | GA | GD | Pts | Pts PG |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Ten Hag | 53.57% | 39.29% | 8 | 28 | 15 | 2 | 11 | 39 | 39 | 0 | 47 | 1.68 |
Rangnick | 41.67% | 29.17% | 6 | 24 | 10 | 7 | 7 | 33 | 33 | 0 | 37 | 1.54 |
It's better than Rangnick but not by a great deal and Rangnick had no money to spend to change the team. Both have abysmal goal difference, both lost way too many games and the points per game stat aren't too dissimilar. Don't think it was a far fetched claim at all. The fact that Rangnicks and ETH's stats are comparable when the squad totally jacked it in with 9 games to go for Rangnick says it all really. It's been such a bad season this year, the only redeeming flicker of positivity I can muster is the emergence of Mainoo.All fans will have varying levels of patience though. If you watch your team play and you're shit then you brush it off as a bad day in the office after the initial moaning. A few weeks of bad performances and you start to get irritated. But it's been a full year. So how long do you give a Manager? How many PL Games do you give them before you want to see actual progress. 20? 30? 40? 50?
Our fanbase is patient, the moaning only really began to mount up in December when we got pushed out of the CL in the group stages and we've been rubbish in the League since March 23.
You can’t possibly expect a Manchester United team with the 6th worse injury record in the league to outscore Luton town. Ridiculous expectations.
Every other post, no need to quote.
So we spend a large part of last year laughing at Chelsea spending hundreds of millions stock pilling random players on crazy long contracts, we mocked when Potter was sacked and Lampard came back as caretaker, we are smug and self righteous about them getting Poch and watch him struggle to clean up Boehlys shitstorm and ridicule there lowly league position yet this summer we seem to want our club to jump in 2 feet first and repeat these same mistakes.
Can you imagine the absolutely epic meltdown if we rocked up in 10th or lower next season, millions spent on players and a new manager in place?
It’s not wise to replace vast swathes of our playing squad and the managerial/coaching staff and the club hierarchy all in one go. As Sir Jim said himself, we need to walk to the right solutions and as such need to drop all this impatience and steel ourselves for the hard yards. We are a club that has been in decline and transition continually for the last 11 years, that won’t be fixed immediately.
We have one striker, who had to get bedded in and wasn‘t scoring: that will depress those numbers.
I don‘t have a problem with less shots created, as long as we create high quality chances.
A counter attack that doesn‘t lead to a shot could still be a situation that has a high probability of a goal. Creating shots is the wrong way to think about it: we need to create situations that have a high chance to lead to a goal, not a shot.
4 big chances created is better than creating 30 low probability shots.
If we start taking better care of the ball, all this will right itself. We will concede less shots and create more ourselves.
In that universe you could say the same for every manager. If ll their players worke out we would have a few league titles in the bag since Fergie.
Zero fit strikers for large parts of the season, and 24 different starting back 4 combinations. We’ve also had a long period without our best midfield. The team has had no continuity and therefore no opportunity to build relationships on the pitch and learn patterns of play together.
Drop the smarmy sarcasm act and look closer at the context of all that’s gone on this season.
He showed a lot more cojones in his first season compared to now, wonder what happened.
That last bit is indeed a baffling take. Haller tore up the CL group stage, I believe he was topscorer. He simply was outstanding for Ten Hag, as was Van De Beek. Tadic and Daley Blind as well.
They all made top teams in Europe look like wet wipes.
Now he has Scott McTominay. But it looks like if Højlund will stay fit he will score lots of goals for Ten Hag.
Yeah we need to see some big names sold like Bruno & Rashford,however think the extent of big names will be Sancho, Varane & Casemiro this summer which is a start I guess
Oh cmon man....that's a lazy reach.
12 in xG, 14th in xG conceded, 12th in expected points, 15th in goals scored, somehow only 4th in goals conceded (more luck than skill that one given the other stats), 9th in goal differential... 6th in the table of course is what's recorded. But I guess a goal difference of 0 and being 6th is seen as fine these days.
They shot themselves in the foot over Kane by not having the money to go all in,due to the fact we frittered it away on Mount & Antony. What would it take for you to join many of us on the Erik out train just out of interest?
Not at all. Sancho nobody gives a shit about. Varane and Casemiro will be sold because of the money they are getting.
We have to sell overpaid underperformers like Rashford and others to make funds available and semlnd message across the dressing room that trash performances arent accepted.
Why quote me then?
6th is flattering. We have absolutely zero desire and perhaps ability to dominate games and win convincingly. Team and manager share the blame for me but ETH needs a plan or he will be ushered out soon.
..and yet EtH got us 26 more points than Luton! Going by your logic, EtH is a genius!
The way I read it EtH got put to a choice: either Hojlund and Mount and a new keeper, or just Kane. After a season of overdelivery by EtH, he got shackled again on a squad that needed and still needs a huge overhaul. A limit of what, 140 mill was and is crazy. It's why we are a top 6 side at best. It's even more crazy when you think strikers, 30+ a season strikers like Kane arent available at all most of the time.
I'm on the Erik out train if he gets to Ole stats, 8 played and 5 losses with horror games and no prospect.
As it is, its 8 played, 5 wins, 2 losses, with flashes of great attacking play. The results are there. I get the criticism on his tactics for midfield but that is a result of the style we play and the many players we don't have. You want more midfield, get Allardyce and actual better midfield players. Also, we are not a top 4 side yet. Why do like Everton, hire big blow managers when you don't have a big blow squad? I think EtH has good prospect to grow as a top 4, a prize winning coach for United. In fact, in his first season he got us already one.
On top of that he is a good player manager. That same bunch under Ole did nothing while under EtH, Maguire, Rashford (last season) McTominay, Fred (at times), Dalot found incredible form. Garnacho was a young chicken fighting with Pelistri but look at him now. Mainoo is a great prospect. Going for an Onana type keeper was the right move and he starts to deliver. Hojlund had many doubters including me but now he is a record breaking striker.
Then I think that EtH learns and keeps 86 million Antony out for weeks now; he isn't too big to see at this moment Antony isn't delivering what he supposed to (EtH has said that quite a few times now).
We are not top 4 but after 28 played we are on top of a lot of good teams like Chelsea, Newcastle too. I also thought (and think) that United lacks a top class structure to support its manager, something INEOS seems also to have concluded. We need new technical managers, top class, and then judge EtH.
Also, a manager change now can only be disruptive. We won't get top 4 so why change now. If you want Erik out, do it this summer and not now. But at this moment I'm not on the Erik out train just yet. I'm still on the Erik is good for United train on a long term project.
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If we get good offers that allow us to rebuild better everyone bar three can be sold...
Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojland
This is doubly true for anyone who counts as an academy player. Really see Greenwood, McT, Rashford going just to easy the cashflow situation FFP wise.
Given his age and his diminishing returns it would probably make sense to listen to offers for Bruno too.
Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojland
This is doubly true for anyone who counts as an academy player. Really see Greenwood, McT, Rashford going just to easy the cashflow situation FFP wise.
Given his age and his diminishing returns it would probably make sense to listen to offers for Bruno too.
It's kind of crazy to think that barring the odd spell here-and-there, we've been served with soul destroying football for a decade now.
It's extremely flattering. There have been many games where we were second best but still got points, while I struggle to think of any games we lost where we would have felt disappointed about result but not performance. Basically all our defeats have been quite resounding and deserved while wins largely haven't.
It will eventually regress back to the mean, teams can outperform their xG, xPTS, xGA for a year but it will eventually be what it should be.
Quite agree. It is some time since I got really excited about one of our performances.
There may have been been the odd one or two. But our inconsistency is such that the next game robs the joy of watching our team.
What? They finished top 3 twice under Ole, playing at a higher level than what we've seen this year and a pretty similar level to what we showed last year (yeah, I know, the mighty 1 point more and a cup we won't name because we all know it's the least important trophy we can win).
If anything, it's actually concerning that ETH has hardly improved any of the players we had prior to him joining (Dalot aside, but he was 19-21 in those seasons so it's hard to compare).
This problem has been going on since SAF. We got the first appt disastrously wrong, more to me that the players thought they deserved a bigger name manager, Moyes also made a lot of mistakes and would not listen to any advise given by people more qualified about knowing the squad, potential signing etc for such a . It has got worse and worse by each manager who has come in. A few trophies covering over the cracks. The higher ups have let the players decide who they fancy playing for and when. They have signed players for headlines rather than building a squad for the future. Until someone gets hold of the last situation it won't change. ETH is showing lack of tactical flexibility, but is that due to the squad and it inadequacies or him in general. Do we give him a chance with a better structure?
If Ole had to field 20something different back four combinations in 30 odd games with Martial essentially crocked and Hojlund unavailable for 40% of the PL games, I genuinely think he'd have us midtable.
Beleaguered by the negative stats? It's hard to push your message when you're conceding 22 shots a game, it's easy to give it billy big bollocks when you're winning. I think he also doesn't believe the stuff he's saying in press conferences but he's terrified of losing the players.
Perhaps. But I think it’s still hard to make an argument for players improving in masses over the last 18 months. It’s not even a dig at ETH, this may genuinely be their level.
Yeah, that's very true.
The biggest problem with Moyes is that he dismantled the entire back office coaching staff, getting rid of many coaches that had been there under Ferguson, and brought his own Everton staff aboard. A renowned coach bringing his staff to work with is normal, but it was David Moyes coming from Everton, we can't try to operate at their level nor was it wise to make such significant moves in his first big job at the very beginning.
I can on
You can strip everything else away, the only thing of relevance to judge ETH on (or any other manager) is a that manager has to utilise the players they have have to the best of their abilities, minimising exposing their weaknesses, you cannot judge a manager on the players they do not have or would ideally sign..... IMO ETH has failed in this, he has failed to play his most cohesive 11, and has significantly exposed the weaknesses of his team to the opposition.
Maybe, but then maybe not, pure conjecture and supposition, there are significant multiple differences to the squads, the back room and all of the other teams in the league, add in covid.
You can strip everything else away, the only thing of relevance to judge ETH on (or any other manager) is a that manager has to utilise the players they have have to the best of their abilities, minimising exposing their weaknesses, you cannot judge a manager on the players they do not have or would ideally sign..... IMO ETH has failed in this, he has failed to play his most cohesive 11, and has significantly exposed the weaknesses of his team to the opposition.
He can't play a cohesive 11 if his defence is made of jelly.
I really do not know why I would enter into further discourse with you mate as you will defend ETH irrespective of anything, especially like people who selectively quote part of a post, tells you all you need to know, focus on one thing and you can ignore everything else, noice!
But glutton for punishment that I am, are you asserting that ETH could NOT have modified his team selection and/or tactics to better utilise the players he had at his disposal..... you completely ignore my point that a manager has to manage what he has, making excuses for failure to do this is blindly ignoring what has occurred.
And we may not like every player we have, sure there are faults, but by in large they are regular full international players, who if they were to leave Utd would still be playing 1st 11 football in Europe's top leagues, ETH has not had to cope with Championship players and kids, he has just had players that do not meet his tactical profile
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