Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Plant0x84]

It's a tough job and he had veto over transfers.

If he'd moved on from Lindelof and spent that money elsewhere, identified a younger DM than Casemiro as plan B that he wanted during the De Jong chase, bought a different winger than Antony (to be fair, not a lot of good wingers around that summer and found a versatile LB/LCB instead of Malacia for that role, we'd be in much better shape.

There were tough calls to make, so it's not like he did disastrously, and buying Lisandro was smart and he's been unlucky in that sense, but he hasn't exactly had the magic touch either.

The thing with Antony is Erik only pushed so hard for Antony because the club failed him badly in finding a striker. He was asking for a forward player all summer, and the club got hung up on FDJ and everything else went out the window. The summer was almost done, Erik got desperate and pushed for a player he knew/could trust. It seems he has known the hierarchy and structure above himself is clueless and has felt like he has to take control himself, which you can understand. You can debate the merits of choosing Antony, and whether he is good enough or not (ultimately you’d have to say this was a failed transfer) but I don’t think you can blame Erik for getting players that know how he plays.
I think the transfer fee in this case is a disgrace too but that’s on Murtough/Arnold not ETH.

 

[redcucumber]

My fairly wild guess is Ten Hag will go after the season ends and it'll be Potter on a shorter contract. He gets a chance to prove himself up to the job (which he thinks he is, wouldn't have moved from Brighton to Chelsea if not), it's someone INEOS is comfortable with, the money will be good and worst case scenario you'd figure that the risk of hurting Mainoo's development off the ball and the chaos-ball are reduced.

I'm assuming Liverpool hire Amorim, Nagelsmann turns us down and De Zerbi is seen as maybe too chaotic.

There's not a cat in hell's chance Nagelsmann turns us down, assuming he's our first choice. Absolutely zip.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

It is quite funny to see such staunch defending of the manager, with people saying that this draw is some sort of positive sign of progress or something.

Imagine if, when SAF retired, someone had told you that we would be in a situation where being absolutely hammered with shots, being completely dominated in most of our games, regularly looking like we have no identity or style of play, and then scraping a draw from a game where we were utterly dominated at home like this, would be considered as cause for celebration of the manager and people saying he should be allowed to continue...

 

[stefan92]

There's not a cat in hell's chance Nagelsmann turns us down, assuming he's our first choice. Absolutely zip.

He might have better options, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.

 

[RORY65]

There's not a cat in hell's chance Nagelsmann turns us down, assuming he's our first choice. Absolutely zip.

He could stay with Germany if the Euros go reasonably well, he seems to be Bayern's first choice and he's of interest to Liverpool. It's probable he would turn down the United job given the alternative options he has but I would hope that the club were at least seeing if it's possible.

 

[Sarni]

The first one's hilarious. The second one is just depressing.

Manchester United trying to cling onto 6th in April, what has he done to us?

This is because you do not appreciate how big of an achievement it is to take possibly the worst squad in the league, going through the worst injury crisis in history of football, to 6th place.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yes, Bruno’s goal came from correct front pressing structure forcing Quansah to make a pass inside to his other CB from his weaker foot. The shot was great but the chance was created by our structure.


See below:

That picture is not showing salah free out on the right wing or the keeper available in space. The defender just had a brain fart

 

[stevoc]

If we give managers endless benefit of doubt and I assume that each failure is part of the plan and represents growing pains, then it was very harsh from us to fire any of the preceding coaches and in particular Moyes who was allowed just 10 months and was trying to rebuild the whole coaching staff, had some players to replace which he didn’t get to do etc… also this approach is kind of working under assumption that the coach is the most important person at the club, essentially more important than the club itself.

Bingo.

I'm more concerned about what's best for Manchester United than what's best for the career of Erik Ten Hag. I don't think we should waste any more seasons based on hoping a manager suddenly comes good.

This is because you do not appreciate how big of an achievement it is to take possibly the worst squad in the league, going through the worst injury crisis in history of football, to 6th place.

Maybe, he could be the hero we need but not the one we deserve.

 

[Berbaclass]

It is quite funny to see such staunch defending of the manager, with people saying that this draw is some sort of positive sign of progress or something.

Imagine if, when SAF retired, someone had told you that we would be in a situation where being absolutely hammered with shots, being completely dominated in most of our games, regularly looking like we have no identity or style of play, and then scraping a draw from a game where we were utterly dominated at home like this, would be considered as cause for celebration of the manager and people saying he should be allowed to continue...

Don''t recall seeing that. Many people are saying it was a positive result considering our performance, which it was.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

The first one's hilarious. The second one is just depressing.

Manchester United trying to cling onto 6th in April, what has he done to us?

You are another example of seemingly just here to bash ETH. I asked you in #86,501 to back up your claim with names and numbers wich players are ''good enough for a succesful side/squad'' and what constitutes a ''succes'' for you. Top 4? winner PL? Champions League winner?

It is quite funny to see such staunch defending of the manager, with people saying that this draw is some sort of positive sign of progress or something.

Imagine if, when SAF retired, someone had told you that we would be in a situation where being absolutely hammered with shots, being completely dominated in most of our games, regularly looking like we have no identity or style of play, and then scraping a draw from a game where we were utterly dominated at home like this, would be considered as cause for celebration of the manager and people saying he should be allowed to continue...

SAF had plenty of games where he parked the bus and was happy for a 1 - 0 win. ETH has one of the best succes, win numbers of any manchester United coach. And didn't we break a record for shots against an opponent vs Chelsea in december? We are a very, very agressive side.

 

[M16Red]

That would suggest we're a swashbuckling attacking side that cares little about defending and are very entertaining to watch. Yeah we don't seem to care about defending but we're crap at attacking as well.

Yep we're crap at attacking as well, which makes this even more nuts - because we could easily set up as a counter attacking team. Yet this guy gives zero fecks eh.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

People forget that we have been out of Europe and have generally had good gaps between games to prepare but shown nothing. We now have 6 days before we play Bournemouth who are an average side and yet I can promise you that 6 days later we will just be still the same open chaotic side conceding 25+ shots on goal

 

[Salford_Red83]

What's he showing to people like you? We've been shit all season. Moreover, we have been regressing since the league cup. I beseech you, what do you see on the pitch that shows he deserves a chance?

I guess your sarcasm detector isn't working today, heh

 

[stefan92]

People forget that we have been out of Europe and have generally had good gaps between games to prepare but shown nothing. We now have 6 days before we play Bournemouth who are an average side and yet I can promise you that 6 days later we will just be still the same open chaotic side conceding 25+ shots on goal

Yes... in the first half of the season we often heard the reasoning "he couldn't properly work with the team during the abysmal preseason planning, no wonder we don't look like a well drilled team". After exiting Europe there should have been enough time to work on tactical stuff but we see very little progress, if any at all.

 

[Salford_Red83]

Well said.

Progress isn't linear. Fergie went 12th - 2nd - 12th in his first 3 seasons.

Ten hag needs to be allowed to bring in better defenders and blood through more prospects.

Garnacho and Mainoo handled superbly. Got a tune of Dalot and AwB now too. People forget how bad they were on ten hags arrival. Look at Maguire now too.

He had the chance to do that in the summer transfer window just gone. He bought Mason Mount instead

 

[dabronxolivera]

People are entitled to their view and just because you don't agree with their viewpoint, it doesn't make them a 'WUM'.

Some of his defenders (ex @BenitoSTARR) are not a WUM I agree but there are a few that is surely an obvious WUM (most obvious is @Berbaclass). You can see it from their replies.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

That picture is not showing salah free out on the right wing or the keeper available in space. The defender just had a brain fart

I can’t see where Salah free? Do you have access to a clip which shows more of the pitch and him free and unmarked?

I’ve already addressed the GK in the description.

Of course the defender made a poor decision but it’s because the options available were narrowed down to either back pass to GK.

I find it funny that people want to see a coached side, when they are shown what the coaching does they then reject that it’s relevant.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that you either don’t understand pressing structures, and are therefore not able to criticise them. Or you are choosing to ignore them despite knowing it’s there.

 

[stevoc]

You are another example of seemingly just here to bash ETH. I asked you in #86,501 to back up your claim with names and numbers wich players are ''good enough for a succesful side/squad'' and what constitutes a ''succes'' for you. Top 4? winner PL? Champions League winner?

I haven't bashed him personally once to be fair.

The majority of these players are good enough to be part of a successful team at least as squad members.

''Success''?

Well considering the resources interms of finances at the disposal of the manager of the club. Manchester United should be competing for the Premier League title and the CL every season even if not winning it. That has to be the bare minimum.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Some of his defenders (ex @BenitoSTARR) are not a WUM I agree but there is a few that is surely an obvious WUM (most obvious is @Berbaclass). You can see it from their replies.

That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me in this thread .

I appreciate some view this as me defending Ten Hag, it’s more just trying to make sure criticism levied his way is fair and goes beyond calling him a “cnut” “bald f-“ or other lazy uneducated buzz words.

There’s some excellent criticisms of Ten Hag in this thread many of which I agree with wholeheartedly. He’s absolutely made mistakes.

 

[stevoc]

Yep we're crap at attacking as well, which makes this even more nuts - because we could easily set up as a counter attacking team. Yet this guy gives zero fecks eh.

But maybe he should give even a small amount of fecks?

Personally I'd like us to have a manager that does give a feck about results, and if things aren't going to plan can adapt to the situation and try to make the best of what he's got to get results.

 

[Berbaclass]

Some of his defenders (ex @BenitoSTARR) are not a WUM I agree but there is a few that is surely an obvious WUM (most obvious is @Berbaclass). You can see it from their replies.

I choose to WUM sometimes but I don’t really care which way it goes. If INEOS keep him fine, if they decide to replace him fine.

 

[izak]

His interview after the game were he said he's "proud of this players" what is he proud of exactly? Some of the things he says on interview leaves me scratching my head, said we should have had 9 points from our last three games, there's no way he truly believes that, we've been battered in every one of those games.

 

[Lee565]

Naivety in our last 3 matches reminds me of his ajax side against spurs in that semi final 2nd leg, I don't think we will ever be any different under ten hag and it could be as with a lot of new managers (and players) that come to the premier league, he has been found out tactically in his 2nd season

 

[Salford_Red83]

Yes, Bruno’s goal came from correct front pressing structure forcing Quansah to make a pass inside to his other CB from his weaker foot. The shot was great but the chance was created by our structure.


See below:

This is literally a misplaced pass. He had the defender and the high goalkeeper to pass to and he messed it up.

 

[Berbaclass]

His interview after the game were he said he's "proud of this players" what is he proud of exactly? Some of the things he says on interview leaves me scratching my head, said we should have had 9 points from our last three games, there's no way he truly believes that, we've been battered in every one of those games.

Coming back from behind presumably and showing a bit of character in that regard. Think we all can agree when Diaz scored we would have been fearing a long afternoon at that point.

 

[sugar_kane]

The thing that makes me nervous about him going is the desperation of ABUs in the media who want to tear him down and see him go.

They all know if he goes now we get someone worse - case in point Danny Murphy tying himself in knots on Talksport the other day trying to suggest we should replace him with Southgate, while also admitting he wouldn't want Southgate at Liverpool.

Given how we've already had 11 years of mostly shit I don't really see much of a risk in giving him one more year under a stable structure. There's just as much risk if not more in rolling the dice again on another unproven manager (since unproven managers are the only options out there) especially as it gives certain players yet another get out of jail free card and another chance to 'prove' themselves.

Put it this way, if I was to put money on someone like De Zerbi/Potter/Southgate being a success at United or Ten Hag leaving and being a success somewhere else I'd probably put it on the latter.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

This is literally a misplaced pass. He had the defender and the high goalkeeper to pass to and he messed it up.

Yes, it’s a poor pass. But we created a defensive structure that meant Quansah, their least experienced CB, is playing a pass inside on his weaker foot as there are no other good options.

He doesn’t try the pass to Kelleher because his body position is wrong to attempt it, he’d be significantly off balance playing back to a keeper.

If you don’t want to look for and acknowledge that defending helped create these conditions then again you either don’t understand a defensive structure and how it’s designed, or you do and are deliberately ignoring it.

It’s a bit like chess. You don’t checkmate someone in one move. You get the pieces on the board in the right position so that when your opponent makes a mistake, you can move.

 

[Oranges038]

I can’t see where Salah free? Do you have access to a clip which shows more of the pitch and him free and unmarked?

I’ve already addressed the GK in the description.

Of course the defender made a poor decision but it’s because the options available were narrowed down to either back pass to GK.

I find it funny that people want to see a coached side, when they are shown what the coaching does they then reject that it’s relevant.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that you either don’t understand pressing structures, and are therefore not able to criticise them. Or you are choosing to ignore them despite knowing it’s there.

Salah was on in loads of space as soon as Quansah got the ball, two touches and he should have played out to the wing.

Instead, he turned inside, ignored the instruction of VVD to play the keeper and played a blind pass to no one off his weaker foot. Which Bruno gladly received and clipped into the goal.

The pressing structure was good, but in that instance, Quansah had 2 or 3 opportunities to play a pass and ended up screwing up, it had very little to do with how he was being pressed. It was just a player totally unaware of what was on around him, he had loads of time and space to play.

 

[Andycoleno9]

For the love of God, can he finally say something about refs? Stay quiet, you will be robbed again. Fergie, Jose, Klopp, Pep....would never allow this shit.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Salah was on in loads of space as soon as Quansah got the ball, two touches and he should have played out to the wing.

Instead, he turned inside, ignored the instruction of VVD to play the keeper and played a blind pass to no one off his weaker foot. Which Bruno gladly received and clipped into the goal.

The pressing structure was good, but in that instance, Quansah had 2 or 3 opportunities to play a pass and ended up screwing up, it had very little to do with how he was being pressed. It was just a player totally unaware of what was on around him, he had loads of time and space to play.

And pressing structures enable you to capitalise by narrowing choices.

If you can show me where Salah is or have a clip (video better) I’d really appreciate it.

 

[Salford_Red83]

Yes, it’s a poor pass. But we created a defensive structure that meant Quansah, their least experienced CB, is playing a pass inside on his weaker foot as there are no other good options.

He doesn’t try the pass to Kelleher because his body position is wrong to attempt it, he’d be significantly off balance playing back to a keeper.

If you don’t want to look for and acknowledge that defending helped create these conditions then again you either don’t understand a defensive structure and how it’s designed, or you do and are deliberately ignoring it.

It’s a bit like chess. You don’t checkmate someone in one move. You get the pieces on the board in the right position so that when your opponent makes a mistake, you can move.

You are giving more credit than is due here.

He has options when he receives the ball from VVD, but (probbly due to his inexperience) decides to play it safe and go back to VVD. He literally miscontrols the pass and Bruno manages to pounce on it.
Bruno was fortunate the GK was so high up the pitch (giving his defender an option to pass no doubt) and has already begun one of his mindless pressing excursions that he loves, when he pounced on the ball.

Also, I don't know who it was in midfield that Quansha could have passed forward to, but they made a run which totally cut off that as an option probably contributing to him going backwards.

Honestly, just look at a clip of the goal:

 

[Oranges038]

And pressing structures enable you to capitalise by narrowing choices.

If you can show me where Salah is or have a clip (video better) I’d really appreciate it.

They showed it on MOTD.

They had this high/wide camera view that showed the whole pitch. I'd love if there was an option to watch games in this view minus the commentary so you can actually see the whole pitch and different movements in shape as the game is going on.

When Quansah gets the ball Salah shows and is in plenty of space on the right wing for a pass, he just ignores him and turns back inside. And fecks up, I agree with you that the pressing shape is generally very good, but in that instance it was all on Quansah, he lost his bearings and messed up under very little pressure.

 

[NoPace]

He could stay with Germany if the Euros go reasonably well, he seems to be Bayern's first choice and he's of interest to Liverpool. It's probable he would turn down the United job given the alternative options he has but I would hope that the club were at least seeing if it's possible.

My guess is that Liverpool are hiring Amorim as the media coverage I read makes me think they have been preparing people for it with leaks already.

Nagelsmann no idea. His record was better than Tuchel's and I now assume Xabi Alonso wants to coach Madrid instead, so maybe they bring back Nagelsmann. No idea what their alternative is. Betting suggests De Zerbi is the favorite.

We might end up just getting whichever of De Zerbi or Nagelsmann prefers us or Bayern doesn't choose.

I guess they're my first 2 choices, though I'm no Nagelsmann expert. Bayern firing him was odd enough that you wonder if there wasn't some serious reason as to why it occurred, but he then got the Germany job so who knows. Firing Neuer's goalkeeping coach and alienating him seems like a weird move to make, so maybe he's power-mad or something, but a young highly rated coach like him who did fine at the one job he got fired from might be our best chance at getting an elite manager, for which we have to be lucky and/or clever without a 2015 Pep or Klopp on the market who wants to come here.

I've always been fine with us hiring someone like De Zerbi because I think even if it fails it probably sets you up better for the future to be playing good football (move on from McTominay and Wan-Bissaka athletes who can't play pass and move football and older players and keep the club from being interested in those sorts of buys), and I think we're at least 3 years away from challenging for the title even if we rebuild the squad correctly barring a miracle or a manager just transforming us, and an ideologue and highly rated tactics guy like De Zerbi is probably more likely to do the latter.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

You are giving more credit than is due here.

He has options when he receives the ball from VVD, but (probbly due to his inexperience) decides to play it safe and go back to VVD. He literally miscontrols the pass and Bruno manages to pounce on it.
Bruno was fortunate the GK was so high up the pitch (giving his defender an option to pass no doubt) and has already begun one of his mindless pressing excursions that he loves, when he pounced on the ball.

Also, I don't know who it was in midfield that Quansha could have passed forward to, but they made a run which totally cut off that as an option probably contributing to him going backwards.

Honestly, just look at a clip of the goal:

The clips show what I’m saying is happening.

The run of their midfielder is both shadowed and covered by our man following it’s a pass that likely results in a turnover.

If we can’t give credit to the basics like this when they are applied correctly then you’ve lost all objectivity on our style of play.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Can Erik backers on this forum please articulate what they see in the team's performances, development and style of play over the past 12 months or more that make them think he's the man for the job.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

They showed it on MOTD.

They had this high/wide camera view that showed the whole pitch. I'd love if there was an option to watch games in this view minus the commentary so you can actually see the whole pitch and different movements in shape as the game is going on.

When Quansah gets the ball Salah shows and is in plenty of space on the right wing for a pass, he just ignores him and turns back inside. And fecks up, I agree with you that the pressing shape is generally very good, but in that instance it was all on Quansah, he lost his bearings and messed up under very little pressure.

Thanks I’ll take a look at MOTD now.

 

[stefan92]

Firing Neuer's goalkeeping coach and alienating him seems like a weird move to make

It was exactly the right move. You even said the reason yourself: "Neuer's goalkeeping coach". Tapalovic indeed was exactly that and other keepers under contract at Bayern complained about a lack of attention (Nübel went public about there being no contact at all while he was on loan to Monaco). A club needs coaches who care about all players under contract at the club, not only about a single one, especially not a single one that is severely injured and not sure to return at all at the time.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Seen the wider view and you’re correct Salah is available out wide for a pass. Our structure though is perfect in that situation. Blocks central passing lanes and then when an inexperienced player makes a poor decision we are in the perfect shape to take advantage.

I agree it’s a poor decision made by Quansah. But I also can see with the wider angle we’re set up in the exact shape we should be.

The goal doesn’t happen without Quansah making a poor decision. It also happens because of our defensive structure.

 

[golden_blunder]

ETH is not to blame for any of the last 3 penalties. We were winning with 10 minutes to go, it is normal to make a defensive sub. This year, individual errors have really cost us, both in the league and in Europe.

I still don't think changing the manager will solve our problems. I think we simply need to change our club's culture, and INEOS are the ones who can do that now.

People keep talking about changing the culture, what does that mean to you?

 

[Berbaclass]

People keep talking about changing the culture, what does that mean to you?

The goal has always been top four under the Glazers post-Fergie.

That sort of environment breeds complacency and mediocrity.

If the new ownership from the start say the goal is to win and nothing else is good enough then that is a big culture shift in the club and it's standards becasue their is a big difference between aiming for top four and winning the league. You have seen it with Arsenal.