Estêvão aka "Messinho" | 17 year old Palmeiras winger

[Fortitude]

As the horsechoker wasn't worried about Chelsea (our rival) signing him. But I understand there are other threads to b**** about United.

I wouldn’t go that far; what makes you think he’s the premier horse choker??

 

[horsechoker]

I wouldn’t go that far; what makes you think he’s the premier horse choker??

Patterns of choking

 

[Fortitude]

Patterns of choking

You would say that. Do you have any data to back your claim?

 

[Ekeke]

By special I mean a very high level of talent in the category of Neymar, Ronaldinho, R9. Interms of talent alone, Neymar is very special and imo only Messi is above him amongst currently active players.

Vinicius is very good and potentially a ballon d'or winner but not in that category of talent. And he improved his game to get to his current level. Rodrigo is good but not even as talented as Vinicius.

If being a potential ballon d'or winner at 23 and actual main attacker for very likely a champions league winning team (seems like we're just waiting) isnt special then no country has special players, its not a Brazil thing

 

[Alpha 1]

If being a potential ballon d'or winner at 23 and actual main attacker for very likely a champions league winning team (seems like we're just waiting) isnt special then no country has special players, its not a Brazil thing

Vinicius is a very good footballer just not at that special level of the likes of Neymar, Ronaldinho, or R9 even if he wins the ballond'or.Brazil doesn't keeps its hopes on Vinicius the way they did for the aforementioned players. I'd compare him more to players like Kaka and Rivaldo.

He is doing very well at Real Madrid and would be my pick for the ballond'or but winning it doesn't make you special; it means you've had a very good season and have played a key part in success of your team.

 

[devaneios]

Vinicius is a very good footballer just not at that special level of the likes of Neymar, Ronaldinho, or R9 even if he wins the ballond'or.Brazil doesn't keeps its hopes on Vinicius the way they did for the aforementioned players. I'd compare him more to players like Kaka and Rivaldo.

He is doing very well at Real Madrid and would be my pick for the ballond'or but winning it doesn't make you special; it means you've had a very good season and have played a key part in success of your team.

What exactly puts Rivaldo below the other three, particularly Ronaldinho? Rivaldo was easily as good as Ronaldinho for Barcelona and way better for Brazil.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Unless we are talking about a school newspaper I do not see the media handing out nicknames to 10 year olds. So no, not purely a media creation. In fact, not a media creation at all.

He signed a deal with Nike aged 10. The nickname was literally a media creation; he's never referred to himself by it and reportedly doesn't even like it at all.

 

[Alpha 1]

What exactly puts Rivaldo below the other three, particularly Ronaldinho? Rivaldo was easily as good as Ronaldinho for Barcelona and way better for Brazil.

No he wasn't, atleast not at club level; Ronaldinho from 2003 to 2006 was on another level to any version of Rivaldo. Agree that Ronaldinho relatively underperformed for Brazil after the 2002 wc and ofcourse he totally flopped at the 2006 world cup where he was expected to light up the tournament as the best player in the world. Rivaldo never had such expectations on him as he was never of that mythical level although world class.

 

[giorno]

What exactly puts Rivaldo below the other three, particularly Ronaldinho? Rivaldo was easily as good as Ronaldinho for Barcelona and way better for Brazil.

Mhno. Dinho's 04-06 run was better than anything Rivaldo managed at club level. Just on a higher level. You're right about international football and Rivaldo was more consistent and lasted longer at the top at club level. But Dinho's peak was a level above

 

[devaneios]

I don't think so. Rivaldo 98-99 and 00-01 are on par with any Ronaldinho's season for Barcelona; his first two seasons in Spain were brilliant too. He was more of a match-winner for sure(and I'm not only talking about sheer number of goals).

 

[autopilot]

Honestly, I don’t really see it when I watch his YouTube highlights. He’s clearly very talented but he doesn’t explode off the screen as some generational player.

His Palmeiras teammate Endrick is the one who looks truly special and they’re the same age.

Have to agree on this. Nifty footwork, but the highlights don't scream generational player as the hype would have you believe. Could of course turn out to be a good player but in this case I think we would be overpaying by quite a bit from the (little) I've seen. Paez will be a natural comparison due to age and where they play, and from what I've seen he looks more mature in his game and more ready to make the step up.

 

[giorno]

I don't think so. Rivaldo 98-99 and 00-01 are on par with any Ronaldinho's season for Barcelona;

They are not. Seriously

 

[Raees]

 

[istripador]

Signing the next Vini is the hope with this kind of move but even in that case it was about four-and-a-half to five years from when Real first signed him in May 2017 to when he figured it out and really became a decisive player during the 21-22 season. They had a lot of patience with him along the way too. Rodrygo is more of a middle-ground case in terms of success but the timeline was basically the same - signed summer 2018, doesn't really have a successful professional season until 2022-23. Then you have your Reinier, Gabigol, and perhaps (too early to tell but its not looking great so far) Vitor Roque type of moves that end up not really panning out at all.

In sum, these young Brazilian talents are really big dice rolls but even when you roll good its probably only really paying off 4-5 years in the future. And for whatever reason the top end Brazilian 16-17 year old commands a price that is far beyond the top end talents of any other country. Brazil is obviously a great footballing nation producing really good players but I think there's a lot of mystique built into this as well. Certainly if you offered me the chance to spend 50m on a Brazilian wonderkid who has barely played senior football versus spending the same money on 3-4 of the very best English or French 17 year old academy talents I would take the latter strategy.

TV sponsorship contract does not exist in Brazil?

 

[B20]

I often think Rivaldo gets underrated, but his best was merely "strong contender for best in the world". Ronaldinho's best was a level above that, something that will be remembered far longer.

 

[Alpha 1]

I often think Rivaldo gets underrated, but his best was merely "strong contender for best in the world". Ronaldinho's best was a level above that, something that will be remembered far longer.

Ronaldinho was a truly special footballer, at his best an all time class (above world class). Rivaldo was world class.

Interms of allround play, from the players I've seen chronologically only Maradona, R9, Ronaldinho, and Messi belong in that "above world class level". I feel Neymar had the talent to be in that category and at his best, he was. But stupidity and bad luck with injuries means he couldn't get there consistentlyand when it mattered most.

The level below is where I'd put someone like Vinicius on current form ditto Rivaldo, Van Basten, Platini, Zidane, Kaka iniesta etc

Cristiano is the strange one. Definitely above world class at scoring but not at that level in his general play and I'm not talking his 30s (when he was essentially a poacher) but rather his 20s. Over his career one of the greatest ever though.