European titles - United 3, Chelsea 2. How do you feel about it?

[Ace of Spades]

I said it last night but timing and luck is a massive factor with this stuff. Chelsea have won 2 now and you can’t really say they’ve been the best team in Europe for either of them, but they were in the right place at the right time and took advantage of the other teams not being at it. They had some massive karma in the bank from 2009 when knocking Barca out in 2012. It seemed like the trophy was just meant to be theirs.

We were unlucky that we had a balon D’or winner who buggered off shortly after his 24th birthday. We could have dominated like Real did if we’d hung onto Ronaldo, or if our second great team didn’t coincide with Barcelona being the best side ever. That team got cut short in its prime, which hasn’t happened to the other elite clubs like Bayern, Barca and Real.

We often seem to have our strong cycles at a time when others are as well. We never play Real when they’re in the position they are now - they’re always full of Galacticos. The great Barcelona team as I mentioned above is also frustrating that it came along when it did. 2004 is one that sticks out as a competition we should have capitalised on due to the rest being poor - but we got fecked over by the linesman against Porto who ruled out a perfectly good goal.

Basically it’s a cup competition and anything can happen, down to the smallest margins making the difference. We’ve been unlucky not to win more than 3, and at the same time lucky to win 3. Eusebio missing a last missing sitter in 1968, Bayern going full Sterling in front of goal in 1999, Terry missing his pen in Moscow in 2008. These could have gone the other way too.

This, if anything the final should show the unpredictability of a cup competition.

City spent a ridiculous amount of money to win a CL, even setting everything up to get Pep and they still have not won it.

Chelsea on the other hand did not win under Jose or Ancelotti, but under Di Matteo and now under Tuchel in an underwhelming season in the league.

And as far as Chelsea winning two, I don't feel anything. Your fortune can change pretty quickly at times, for both positive or negative. People predicting them to win it again before us based on feck all proof is the best thing in this stupid place.

 

[Gehrman]

Part of the reason their superior midfield made a difference is because both Hargreaves and Fletcher were absent. That carousel was imperious, but it could be got at with sufficient tenacity (as other sides in that era showed). Fergie talks a good game about wanting to play that final in the ‘right’ way, but in retrospect maybe he didn’t really have much choice in that midfield selection.

It's conjecture. In a final anything can happen as we've seen loads of times. We might have beat them with other tactics or with Fletch and Hargreaves. We might not. Barca didn't have their strongest line up either. In 2009 there is definitely more debate about what "might have been" compared to 2011.

 

[Oranges038]

Three matches I'll always look back on in the CL are Dortmund, Leverkusen and Porto. Those 3 are teams that should have been beaten. Definitely those were years that it was there for the taking.

Barca in 09 - should have been 3 up before they even got a sniff. Then it went to shit.

Barca in 11 - They were just the better team on the night.

Part of it is due to Fergie and his cut from the same cloth moyes debacle.

Aside from being Scottish? What other ways are they cut from the same cloth?

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Like Partridge in that popular gif.

 

[christinaa]

Fa cup record over taken by Arsenal
Cl record over taken by Chelsea
League record over taken by Liverpool.

This shall not pass

Not yet.

 

[Sky1981]

Three matches I'll always look back on in the CL are Dortmund, Leverkusen and Porto. Those 3 are teams that should have been beaten. Definitely those were years that it was there for the taking.

Barca in 09 - should have been 3 up before they even got a sniff. Then it went to shit.

Barca in 11 - They were just the better team on the night.





Aside from being Scottish? What other ways are they cut from the same cloth?

Shrug... ask Fergie.

Was against it since day 1 myself.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Better than United 3, City 1.
But yeah, feels a bit like Real Madrid's chase for the La Decima before it happened. It's going to take a while to get only our 4th one.

Not really. It's unlikely but there's a better chance of us winning it next year than us the Premier League. Divine intervention brought the cup home for us in both 1999 and 2008. A side needs to reach a certain standard to actually compete in the latter stages in the first place, this goes without saying, but in cup competitions luck always plays a decent role.

 

[Bondi77]

Maybe we would have won more if we had a weaker domestic competition and only had to worry about a couple of hard domestic games a season......hold on! .....that would mean our domestic competition is shite!
Feck that!

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Couldn't care less about Chelsea. I was watching that game last night with a few Liverpool supporting mates and they were the only ones to bring it up as if I would care. Should I be concerned about Nottingham Forest too?

 

[Marwood]

It's a different tournament now. Chelsea have pretty much failed two years running domestically, just about scraping 4th, yet they're champions league winners.

What does that say for the tournament?

Then there's the whole buying of titles thing. The best players being concentrated amongst a handful of clubs etc etc.

Just very different times.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Man Utd still the only team to win the Premier League and Champions League in the one season. And did it twice.

 

[2 man midfield]

Man Utd still the only team to win the Premier League and Champions League in the one season. And did it twice.

This is what stands out to me as well. How can you claim to be the best team in Europe if you’re not even the best team in your country?

 

[NoLogo]

I don't really see a sense in comparing our trophy count to others, I don't even care that we are the team with the most PL wins. What I care about though is our present success and the football we play and that it is so lackluster disappoints me much more than another PL team gaining an additional UEFA trophy.

 

[Bubz27]

I felt pride at every trophy he won on course. Did the fact they added to trophies we won 60 years before I was born make them mean more? How could they possibly?

History is important.

It was part of Ferguson's whole time here. To knock Liverpool off their perch. It mattered to him.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

United and Juventus have underperformed the most in Europe historically, relative to domestic success. Could also say Arsenal considering they don't have any at all.

 

[2 man midfield]

United and Juventus have underperformed the most in Europe historically, relative to domestic success. Could also say Arsenal considering they don't have any at all.

Think England have been the most competitive over Europe as a whole though. We have the most diverse group of winners. Spain is just Real and Barca isn’t it?

Which also means that they’ll have been in it more often pre-1992 and had more chances to win. Just getting into the tournament was hard enough as an English team for ages.

 

[Handsome Devil]

Chelsea are owned by a Russian JR Ewing.
We are owned by Harold and Albert Steptoe.

(Showing my age a bit there.)

 

[Kopral Jono]

United and Juventus have underperformed the most in Europe historically, relative to domestic success. Could also say Arsenal considering they don't have any at all.

Juventus' two European Cups baffles me, given the fact that they're by far the most successful side in the history of the Serie A, a league widely regarded as the strongest in Europe historically. Their contribution to the Italy national team surpasses any of their closest rivals, too.

 

[Bondi77]

This is what stands out to me as well. How can you claim to be the best team in Europe if you’re not even the best team in your country?

So we should go back to the old format then?

 

[Mount's Goatieson]

Technically speaking, Chelsea has more European trophies than United.

 

[Oranges038]

Shrug... ask Fergie.

Was against it since day 1 myself.

How is it part of the problem then?

The squad after 2011 needed a rebuild, Fergie started it, but couldn't stay around to finish it. Don't think it really matters who they brought in after him. Could have been Pep or Klopp, but they've spent about a billion between them and only won it once since. United have spent a billion and can't even get out of the group stages.

 

[2 man midfield]

So we should go back to the old format then?

Erm..no?

 

[Ludens the Red]

Not bothered. Never like English teams winning the CL but the choice last night was easy.
Don’t hate Chelsea, don’t even consider them a significant rival outside of ‘competitive rivalry’. Their fans probably see us a lot differently but that’s what being Manchester United does.

They’re more like to hit 4 European Cups before we do. Their club is obsessed with winning trophies. I don’t think they’ve gone more than a year without winning a trophy since Roman came. Even when they’re not winning the League or CL they’re winning the cups. People on here like to downplay those cups to excuse this current United side but never underestimate the ability to keep winning trophies and the mentality it breeds.

Actually have a begrudging respect for them as the years go by. They’ve even started playing academy players regularly. They’re bold enough to make big managerial changes if they think it’s necessary regardless of previous trophies/sentiment etc. It’s ruthless but it bring success.

 

[George the Cat]

Anyone mentioned Forest have also won two?
Huddersfield the first side to win 3 titles in a row. it took the Dippers 30 years to win a title again, start of this season they were the best team ever who were going to walk the league again, didn’t happen did it.

Our problems are due to our owners, they aren’t selling up so get used to it.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Juventus' two European Cups baffles me, given the fact that they're by far the most successful side in the history of the Serie A, a league widely regarded as the strongest in Europe historically. Their contribution to the Italy national team surpasses any of their closest rivals, too.

And at least United's wins weren't overshadowed, like Juve's with Heysel (although not the team's fault but still overshadowed) and doping.

 

[Devil81]

I know we've won a few European trophies but given how strong we were you have to say we have never really been brilliant in European competition.

I know we had that period between 2008 and 2011 but we've not won enough. Five European titles just isn't enough for a club of our standing.

In comparison Liverpool have 9 and Chelsea 6.

Liverpool and Chelsea have delivered European success even when they've had average sides. Why have we struggled so much???

Not good enough, Chelsea have a pretty average team at the moment but they just seem to know how to deliver in Europe.

 

[Rojofiam]

People predicting them to win it again before us based on feck all proof is the best thing in this stupid place.

The same people were probably the ones saying in 2019 that Pool would go on to win their 7th and 8th before Bayern could get their 6th. The doom and gloom mentality on this forum is something else

 

[Zoo]

Both times Chelsea have done it is when they’ve changed their manager mid-season. Every manager is a hired gun for Abramovich, they are unique in that way but it works for them. It wouldn’t be a surprise at all if Tuchel was out of a job by Christmas, that’s how they roll.

United should have done better but we also reached 2 finals against probably the best club team of the last 50 years and the best player in history.

 

[stw2022]

History is important.

It was part of Ferguson's whole time here. To knock Liverpool off their perch. It mattered to him.

Oh come off it.He knocked them off their perch 93. I’ve never heard him talk about 19 as being overly significant. That’s the one that mattered to him, 93

like feck did he think Liverpool were still on their perch because of title wins50 years before

 

[Hugh Jass]

Read in Fergies book that he said he should have won 5. Which is a bit too much. Certainly we should have another under Ferguson, maybe another 2.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Yes we should have one more but at this stage ah fecking well.

The main problem is the club is not even trying to win them anymore.

Our rebuilds are entirely too slow, I think we can all agree in that.

That's now Spurs Liverpool City and Chelsea who have made a CL final in the past few years. That's because we are in a period on English dominance with La Liga especially being weak right now.


Hey we are nowhere to be seen. For all the talk of progress the club is still a mess that is nowhere near where we should be.

 

[Bubz27]

Oh come off it.He knocked them off their perch 93. I’ve never heard him talk about 19 as being overly significant. That’s the one that mattered to him, 93

like feck did he think Liverpool were still on their perch because of title wins50 years before

A big part of the reason we're one of the biggest clubs in the world is because of what we've done in our history. It baffles me that it can't matter to fans.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Read in Fergies book that he said he should have won 5. Which is a bit too much. Certainly we should have another under Ferguson, maybe another 2.

Despite our final defeats to Barcelona on two different occasion, personally 2002 stings a lot and to me that was the one where Fergie should have added another to his collection. That Real side is nothing special and we'd have beaten them in Glasgow.

 

[stw2022]

A big part of the reason we're one of the biggest clubs in the world is because of what we've done in our history. It baffles me that it can't matter to fans.

of course it matters but the pretence there’a an emotional connection is ridiculous. If any of our title wins would have meant less to you if James Magnall hadn’t led his side to glory in 1911 then that’s where we depart. History is fine but at some point it becomes trivia that has no relation to achievements we’re emotionally invested in.

In 93 nobody thought “nice but were still 12 behind “ not a fecking soul

 

[dinostar77]

Chelsea will get to 4 european cups before we will.

 

[Maticmaker]

We should have paid more attention to Europe, but I can understand why it was always Premier League which was more important.

Also its the difference between playing in a league ('marathon' type comp) and a cup competition ('sprint' type comp).

Even the CL is really a knockout competition in the end, you could win all of your group stage matches, then fall foul of the 'unlucky' aspects of 'cup football' in the knockout stages where one slip, one wrong choice and you can be gone.

Its true the CL does throw together the better teams from across Europe, but it is still reliant on things like 'luck of the draw', one costly mistake, the vagaries of 'penalty shoot-outs' etc, in the final analysis.

The CL competition does have a sort of glamour about it that is not necessarily associated with the PL. The phrase 'Champions of Europe' is certainly what excites the sponsors; but in terms of 'best teams' we have to remember three out of the four finalists in this years UEFA cup competitions finals were from the PL.

We've played in five of Europe's top competition finals 1-European Cup and 4 of the follow up Champions League finals, of the two we lost we were up against one of the acknowledge best teams ever in Europe, so we have not done so bad. I know SAF feels there were two CL competitions where he should have gotten us through to the final, but luck had a part to play in both these outcomes... that's why Cup Comps are always subject to individual acts or strokes of luck/bad luck.

Apart from 'the treble' I still value our 13 PL titles above all else!

 

[stw2022]

Winning league and wining CL is very difficult. In England there isn’t chance often to prioritise one over the other as there are far fewer games where you can go out and at half effort expect to win. City nearly managed it this year but its no conscience it’s the least competitive Premier League season in a long time

If you don’t have a league to fight for or a domestic fixture list where one game in seven requires you to pay attention it’s not as hard

 

[MattofManchester]

Doesn't bother me at all. It's a once-off. City and Liverpool's rise and our constant pushing for just a CL place bothers me more.

 

[MU655]

4-4-2 was a problem under Ferguson. It just didn't work in Europe, and we were very lucky to win it in the 90s.

We were much better around 2007 where we reached 3 finals (should have been 4). Unfortunately, the team deteriorated and were no longer good enough. The midfield wasn't sufficient in 2009, and was even worse in 2011. I remember Carrick took a lot of slack for those games, but he had to play next to dross in comparison to the opposition.

I remember we started the 2009 final brightly, but Ronaldo was in solo mode and didn't seem interested in passing. Giggs was fine as a CM against weaker sides, but nowhere near good enough to face a proper team. Anderson was average.

In 2011, again it was Giggs in pretty much a two-man midfield with Carrick. Park on the left side and Valencia on the right. We had no chance, and would have been hammered without Carrick.

In those last two finals, only Carrick was good enough to play in midfield against a team like Barcelona.

 

[R77]

It's a little bit sad that Russian gangster money is further legitimised by trophies and titles in the history books. More so if/when the likes of PSG and City achieve similar. As far as how it applies to us... It doesn't. Couldn't care less.