F.A. contributed to Munich Crash

Red Hand Devil

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It surprises me that no-one's mentioned why United and FA dont get on and what made them fall out in the first place, but i'll give it a shot from what I recall from old interviews from people like Harry Gregg - a Northern Irish Legend and Hero of the crash - who being bare-footed for comfort on the plane, got safely outta the crashed plane and then went back into the burning wreck to rescue many people dead and alive - a Mother and child were among the lives he saved and many of his friends he couldnt as he tried!

One of the most important factors in the Munich Air crash - United had to be home asap no matter what or they faced gettin kicked outta the Football League! United had to by any means necessary get the feck back to England for Saturdays game or they would be fecked out - and the FA meant it!

The moment that plane had problems they would and should of stayed overnight but the FA were livid about United going against their wishes competing in a European Competition - we were the renegades and at the same time - we were the Pioneers of English Football! Sir Matt had a vision for English football to compete in this great European Cup Competition with all the other National Champions!

The FA didnt give any credit to this Competition as the FA Cup in their eyes was the one and only football Cup Competition in the world - played in the "Home of Football", and it was highly regarded throughout Europe, as it still is today!

You can see why English Football puts itself on a pedestal - its inbrid in the English Psyche - "we own the game..."

The FA didnt recognise the European Cup and forbid any winner of the Old First Division to do so and compete. Chelsea won it the year before us and chickened out, cos they didnt want to feel the wrath of the Football Association, like Liverpool also!

United requested a Sunday match, that would allow them to recover from the Red Star game but the FA said "feck off - you chose to play against our wishes - you get back here for Saturdays game and dont be playin a weakened team either..."

So, after having technical problems with the plane - the pilot finally got the Plane motoring on the 3rd attempt and the rest is as they say - history....

Phoenix from the Flames...
 
Mostly true but to be fair Liverpool were never in a position to chicken out.
The FA were total dickheads as they still are. Just about everything ever accomplished has been in spite of them
 
I wasn't born yet when this happened and clearly this info is something new for me... but still, felt gutted about it.... :(
 
Shocking the attitude the FA had to overseas football back then generally. The ironic thing being that, as England actually were one of the best teams in teh world until the 50s (as opposed to just thinking we are), if they'd agreed to come out and play with the other kids , and gone to the first 3 World Cups, we'd probably have won a couple and not spent the last half a century jealously eyeing up Germany and Italy's current hauls...

YCSYFEUYA
 
Liverpool were mid-table in the second division with Shanks walking into the carnage that the club was at the time.

But you're right, it's another example of a butt-scuttling from the FA, just like authorising us to drop out of the FA Cup in 2000 and then standing back and let us be slated for devaluing their competition.

Conts.
 
The FA will never change - pratts in the past. present and future and yes indirectly they do carry some small measure of blame for Munich
 
There were supposed to be warnings of draconian penalties if United's European games preventing them from fulfilling domestic fixtures.

They may have been forced to forfeit the game that Saturday against Wolves, But, I don' t think they would have been kicked out of the League, if they stayed in Munich
 
Julian Denny said:
Weren't the culprits The Football League and its secretary Alan Hardaker in particular - not the FA ?
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You are right. Under the new league regulations at the time, any team competing in Europe had to be back in England a full 24 hours before they were due to play a game. Alan Hardaker was League Secretary at the time, whether he was protecting the “integrity” of the Football League, or making it as difficult as possible for United since Matt Busby had defied him on playing in Europe, is the question?
 
Not sure about Munich, but the FA were certainly culpable in the Hillsborough tragedy and I don't think they've ever apologised. Bunch of cnuts. :mad:
 
Not an expert on this surely, but based on the reading I have done the FA surely carry some responsibility. Thanks for the info from the rest of you lads who know more.
 
Thanks for filling in the gaps lads!

I had a basis for the thread but I didnt wanna google anything.

You probably wont hear anything regarding this subject from anyone as we approach the anniversary, so I had to get it off my mind!

I hope the whole story does come out in the press in the coming weeks regarding United being the renegades / rebels and the aggressiveness of the Football League / FA. It'll show ABU's that United were streets ahead of their time back then and still remain so today!

"Man United will never die........"
 
Canuckred64 said:
There were supposed to be warnings of draconian penalties if United's European games preventing them from fulfilling domestic fixtures.

They may have been forced to forfeit the game that Saturday against Wolves, But, I don' t think they would have been kicked out of the League, if they stayed in Munich
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Aye, that would be the punishment. United had to be in Manchester at least 24hrs before kick off, or we would forfeit the match.

The FA in its wisdom did not want English clubs playing in European Cups because that would mean too many games. So they solved the fixture congestion by adding the League Cup a few years later.
Twats.
 
Red Hand Devil said:
It surprises me that no-one's mentioned why United and FA dont get on and what made them fall out in the first place, but i'll give it a shot from what I recall from old interviews from people like Harry Gregg - a Northern Irish Legend and Hero of the crash - who being bare-footed for comfort on the plane, got safely outta the crashed plane and then went back into the burning wreck to rescue many people dead and alive - a Mother and child were among the lives he saved and many of his friends he couldnt as he tried!

One of the most important factors in the Munich Air crash - United had to be home asap no matter what or they faced gettin kicked outta the Football League! United had to by any means necessary get the feck back to England for Saturdays game or they would be fecked out - and the FA meant it!

The moment that plane had problems they would and should of stayed overnight but the FA were livid about United going against their wishes competing in a European Competition - we were the renegades and at the same time - we were the Pioneers of English Football! Sir Matt had a vision for English football to compete in this great European Cup Competition with all the other National Champions!

The FA didnt give any credit to this Competition as the FA Cup in their eyes was the one and only football Cup Competition in the world - played in the "Home of Football", and it was highly regarded throughout Europe, as it still is today!

You can see why English Football puts itself on a pedestal - its inbrid in the English Psyche - "we own the game..."

The FA didnt recognise the European Cup and forbid any winner of the Old First Division to do so and compete. Chelsea won it the year before us and chickened out, cos they didnt want to feel the wrath of the Football Association, like Liverpool also!

United requested a Sunday match, that would allow them to recover from the Red Star game but the FA said "feck off - you chose to play against our wishes - you get back here for Saturdays game and dont be playin a weakened team either..."

So, after having technical problems with the plane - the pilot finally got the Plane motoring on the 3rd attempt and the rest is as they say - history....

Phoenix from the Flames...
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It didnt. You cant blame the FA for a plane crash, even if the rules were retarded.
 
To be fair they tried to take off three times altogether. After the first attempt failed and with the weather getting worse, they should have given up. I don't know why they tried a 3rd attempt after the first 2 failed, I don't know who's decision that was. I just wish to god that decision was never made. But it seems callouss to try and attach blame to specific people, it was a horrible tragedy, no one wanted it to happen. I'm sure many people suffer guilt and regrets because of it.​
 
I think it's been established here that it was primarily the Football League and not the FA who were involved in making life difficult for United on their European adventure. After all the League had not given permission for United to participate in the EC but the Club decided to go ahead anyway.

After Munich, United were invited to participate in the following season's EC by UEFA even though they were not champions - out of sympathy and respect. The League refused on the grounds that United were not champions. On appeal the FA initially supported United's case and then finally reneged on that decision and backed the League. United had to decline the invitation.
 
SmashedHombre said:
To be fair they tried to take off three times altogether. After the first attempt failed and with the weather getting worse, they should have given up. I don't know why they tried a 3rd attempt after the first 2 failed, I don't know who's decision that was. I just wish to god that decision was never made. But it seems callouss to try and attach blame to specific people, it was a horrible tragedy, no one wanted it to happen. I'm sure many people suffer guilt and regrets because of it.​
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Is that your expert oppinion?

Bobby Charlton mentions that the pilot was determined to take off, the model of plane was generally slow, and that in those days rules and runway clearing / safety procedures were very different.
 
I think it's fair to say that the Football Leagues displeasure that United had gone into this competition against there will was a contributing factor in some respect to the crash.

I think it's safe to suggest that had they not insisted that they had to get home and play on the Saturday, United would have got a train and then boat home from Munich. As it was, the weather, the plane and everything else contributed to that fateful 3rd attempted take off.

It would be unfair to point fingers right now, what happened happened. Whilst no direct finger pointing is being done here, it could become that way, and as with many things, not one thing can be solely blamed for what took place.
 
Tribec said:
I think it's fair to say that the Football Leagues displeasure that United had gone into this competition against there will was a contributing factor in some respect to the crash.

I think it's safe to suggest that had they not insisted that they had to get home and play on the Saturday, United would have got a train and then boat home from Munich. As it was, the weather, the plane and everything else contributed to that fateful 3rd attempted take off.

It would be unfair to point fingers right now, what happened happened. Whilst no direct finger pointing is being done here, it could become that way, and as with many things, not one thing can be solely blamed for what took place.
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very fair post ........your right finger pointing is wrong ........ it is just that the football authorities both then now always avoid any responsibility
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Agreed, if the true danger of the weather conditions had been known at time, the flight would have been postponed, FA Cup or not.
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The plane never got off the ground - it crashed on take-off!

All someone has to do is have a fecking look at the runway and evaluate if a plane could travel on it - and the answer to that is a probable no!

The plane could of quite possibly arrived home safely if it had made the take-off and we wouldnt be having this conversation!
 
GloryHunter07 said:
It didnt. You cant blame the FA for a plane crash, even if the rules were retarded.
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Well, I cant blame God cause those special players wouldnt of died had God existed - so next up is the runway maintenance guys - after that possibly the pilot - next up is crap german weather and last but not least - the Football League for being a bunch of feckbags with bitterness dripping from them!

I would also like to add, that no-one said the FA was to blame, all I said and its the title of the thread - is they contributed to the crash.

I know I maybe got it mixed up, as most folk are saying it was the football league that enforced the rules and not the FA (fair play - i knew it was one or the other) but taking that aside - had United not been in a hurry home they probably would of made alternative travel arrangements or stayed in Munich as a common sense decision!
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Well, I cant blame God cause those special players wouldnt of died had God existed - so next up is the runway maintenance guys - after that possibly the pilot - next up is crap german weather and last but not least - the Football League for being a bunch of feckbags with bitterness dripping from them!

I would also like to add, that no-one said the FA was to blame, all I said and its the title of the thread - is they contributed to the crash.

I know I maybe got it mixed up, as most folk are saying it was the football league that enforced the rules and not the FA (fair play - i knew it was one or the other) but taking that aside - had United not been in a hurry home they probably would of made alternative travel arrangements or stayed in Munich as a common sense decision!
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Fair point, i get the distinction.

The second bit is conjecture. If you blame the football league then you should also blame Sir Matt Busby for deciding to take us into Europe. ( I dont)
 
Red Hand Devil said:
No offence but thats bad taste in trying to make your point!
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No its not i was pointing out the flaw in your argument. How is it in bad taste to blame Matt Busby for contributing but not some muppet at the football league? Explain.

I would like to make it clear that i do not blame anyone, it was just a tragic accident.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
If you blame the football league then you should also blame Sir Matt Busby for deciding to take us into Europe. ( I dont)
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Matt did. For the rest of his life. He was wrong to blame himself but he did.

Hardaker and the Football League were bunch of little islander prats but they're not responsible for the Munich air disaster any more than Sir Matt was.
 
kf said:
Matt did. For the rest of his life. He was wrong to blame himself but he did.

Hardaker and the Football League were bunch of little islander prats but they're not responsible for the Munich air disaster any more than Sir Matt was.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Just finished Bobby Charlton's book, it seems Matt Busby took the guilt with him for the rest of his life.
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just about to start bobby's book, good read?
 
rimaldo said:
just about to start bobby's book, good read?
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Yeh its a good look at the club and players from long before i was born, so i found it interesting. He comes across as very down to earth, and in love with the club. The last couple of chapters when he talks about his all time United first 11 is good, and his favourite players is really good.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
No its not i was pointing out the flaw in your argument. How is it in bad taste to blame Matt Busby for contributing but not some muppet at the football league? Explain.

I would like to make it clear that i do not blame anyone, it was just a tragic accident.
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"had United not been in a hurry home they probably would of made alternative travel arrangements or stayed in Munich as a common sense decision..." (Post 24)

Sorry, where's the flaw in my argument? Its a basic fact and common sense!

Listen mate i cant be bothered with ya, the title of the thread is pretty much self explanatory and i dont understand why your pulling some "if you blame him - you've gotta blame him too...." shite?! Give it a feckin rest!!

My only focus was that the Football League by insisting on strict guidelines with no room for maneuvre - contributed to the crash!

I hope someone shits in your handbag sometime very soon..... and I hope they've done the Guinness Brewery tour the nite before - stopping off for stew at the Stew Station in Smithfield - that would be an act of God!!!



"I would like to make it clear that i do not blame anyone, it was just a tragic accident..." Gloryhunter quote...

What a pussy!

I used to blame the FA and then the Football League, but now I fecking blame you Pal - its all your fault - NOW GO AND SHIT IN YOUR OWN HANDBAG!
 
Red Hand:

That wasnt the flaw i was talking about... it was the bit about blaming one person but not another.

You started the thread, i was just making a point, sorry if you dont want to have a discussion.
 
Hey RHD, I don't get it. Certainly Busby must at least be examined. It was *his* idea to have us play in Europe. His and the FL's difference of opinion caused the silly situation. Now I side with GH and don't blame Busby at all, the FL acted poorly imho, but very sadly even Busby himself took this view to heart. So if the main character in the Busby Babes tradegy acknowledges this position (again incorrectly imho), how can any rational discussion not address it? Feel free to tell us why you disagree with Busby having blame(and again I will agree he is blameless), but if you start a thread don't you want discussion?
 
Only one person blamed Busby and that was Matt himself - nobody else. He felt a responsibility for having taken the decision to enter the EC. He also took responsibility for not having ordered the team off the plane after it failed to take off on the two previous occasions. Whether or not that decision was influenced by the time constraints, nobody knows. After the crash and whilst still recuperating, Busby decided he was finished with football. Only his wife Jean managed to persuade him otherwise saying that he had a duty to continue for the players who died and that those players would have wanted him to continue.
 
Julian Denny said:
Only one person blamed Busby and that was Matt himself - nobody else. He felt a responsibility for having taken the decision to enter the EC. He also took responsibility for not having ordered the team off the plane after it failed to take off on the two previous occasions. Whether or not that decision was influenced by the time constraints, nobody knows. After the crash and whilst still recuperating, Busby decided he was finished with football. Only his wife Jean managed to persuade him otherwise saying that he had a duty to continue for the players who died and that those players would have wanted him to continue.
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Excellent post mate!
 
Rob Bowman said:
Hey RHD, I don't get it. Certainly Busby must at least be examined. It was *his* idea to have us play in Europe. His and the FL's difference of opinion caused the silly situation. Now I side with GH and don't blame Busby at all, the FL acted poorly imho, but very sadly even Busby himself took this view to heart. So if the main character in the Busby Babes tradegy acknowledges this position (again incorrectly imho), how can any rational discussion not address it? Feel free to tell us why you disagree with Busby having blame(and again I will agree he is blameless), but if you start a thread don't you want discussion?
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Of course I want discussion but the objective of the thread was to gauge opinion on the Football Leagues role in the disaster. We all know Sir Matts role in forcing his hand to play in the European Cup but I certainly will not enter into a debate about Sir Matt having blame attached to even things out because I'm only pointing the finger at one area - the Football League - feck that shit and you shouldnt be trying to either!
 
Red Hand Devil said:
The plane never got off the ground - it crashed on take-off!

All someone has to do is have a fecking look at the runway and evaluate if a plane could travel on it - and the answer to that is a probable no!

The plane could of quite possibly arrived home safely if it had made the take-off and we wouldnt be having this conversation!
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damn the FA for not checking the runway first
 
Red Hand Devil said:
Of course I want discussion but the objective of the thread was to gauge opinion on the Football Leagues role in the disaster. We all know Sir Matts role in forcing his hand to play in the European Cup but I certainly will not enter into a debate about Sir Matt having blame attached to even things out because I'm only pointing the finger at one area - the Football League - feck that shit and you shouldnt be trying to either!
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Sorry I must have missed the script. I thought you wanted actual genuine input, not scripted feedback. Guessing you are unfamiliar with the scientific method and or the purpose of a discussion board ;)?

I mean you read my post did you miss I found him blameless three times :rolleyes:.

Regardless you can go baclk to your profanity laced tantrum now :).
 
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