So now Roy Keane is triggering counter-attacking football? With Robbo up his arse all game? I don't see a clean delivery. It's not like Petit won't be trying to intercept those balls.
Fantasy Draft- Chesterlestreet vs Rpitroda
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
Lovely piece of play from him. I watched bits and pieces of him for Columbia vs England in 1998 earlier and I was slightly taken aback by his workrate at 37 years old. I had him pegged as a bit of a lazy bastard (I think Fergie mentioned it in his first autobiography) but he was doing a creditable job of getting back behind the ball for a slow old fella. His passing was customarily slick as well.
Sexy effortless pinball footie, if only tiki taka had been as entertaining as watching him.
he played a couple of good games during the worldcups, but his performance wasnt really sublime, wasnt it? I know nothing about his club career, but the stats look pretty underwhelming. A decent time for Montpellier, a french mid-table team. A failed attempt in spain and after that he went back to Colambia/America. Is there any explanation, why his career in Europe wasn't a success assuming, that he was a very good player?
Who knows - some players never really kicked on in Europe. It was different back then compared to now, one might add - it wasn't some sort of absolute criterion to have a brilliant club career in Europe. Some of the best South American players back in the day never did - look at the core of the great Brazil sides of the 80s for obvious examples.
Can see this panning out 2-1 to Chester, Ronaldo getting both created by Enzo and Littbarski, Vieri countering with a header from a Brian Laudrup cross.
You have to keep in mind European teams faced quotas then. Playing in a big European team wasn't the required pinnacle of a player's career as it is today. Take Zico for instance, I could make a similarly underwhelming assessment of Zico who played for Udinese ("a decent mid-table team") and for some random Japanese side later in his career. The norm still was to play domestically, the South American leagues and continental tourno were really strong back then.
Adapting was an entirely different business as well, you would be one of 2-3 foreigners in the side, not the multicultural nomad environments players find themselves in these days. I could come up with plenty of examples similar to his: Socrates, Passarella... Francescoli himself kept playing for mid-table sides. Think about it for a minute, imagine the big European teams not being allowed more than two -later three- foreigners (that includes intra-EU as foreigner) you would very quickly find some top players stuck in midtable sides. It's inevitable. Add to that idiosyncracies and I could see someone like Valderrama not "fitting in", much like Maradona couldn't fit in anywhere apart from the mid-table mob town of Napoli.
thats an argument I can mostly agree with. Not sure if Zico, socrates or passarella are great examples so. They are significantly older and played in bigger domestic leagues. All of them showed good/great performances in europe as well.
Luckily the match will continue tomorrow so I have more time to make up my mind.
Luckily the match will continue tomorrow so I have more time to make up my mind.
Any particular reason for no Cerezo, Falcao and Zico being there in the final?I understand the Laudrup bias, quite deserved
Both Littbarski and Francescoli can stretch the defence, but can roam around to receive, whether they choose to attack the flank or centrally is up to them. Gaz and Paddy can do bugger all to stop them receiving in space, they aren't going to run around like headless chicken, which is where Vieira and Keane need to support, but they also have to stop Valderrama delivering or Robbo bombing forward. It's just way too much, however great they were. Once on the ball Francescoli, Littbarski or Ronaldo can destroy those defences, be it stretched or tucked in, there's an abysmal gap in class.
Ronaldo: no need to explain
Francescoli: the heart and soul of every team he played for. He could single-handedly run and win games, which is unfortunate as he kept being signed by clubs looking for one world beater who could be a one-man team as he was for Uruguay (only River ever gave him the right platform and support cast). Played four Copa Americas, won three, one in 1983 beating Brazil (yes, that Brazil) in the final, in Brazil; one in 1987 beating world champions Argentina at home in the semi; and his last in 1995 beating world champions Brazil. The other time he was runner-up, losing the final to Brazil at the Maracana with Romario playing the game of his life. Apparently Gary Neville can do something about all that by tucking in.
Littbarski: three world cups, one won, two runner-up. Evra apparently has his number. Right.
It should be noted that in the first megabucks club as a toy experiment (Racing Matra de Paris) both Francescoli and Littbarski played together and arrived as the star signings playing in the exact same roles they have been assigned to here. It was a terrible experiment, club had no soul, no support, etc. But his form there prompted Cruyff to want Enzo at Barca (was demanded insane money), it eventually led to him joining Marseille and having Zidane drooling at his every move ("He was everything I wanted to be as a player").
Sure, there's an age gap with some of those, but not with Maradona, for example. Most of those I mentioned played in Europe at the tail-end of their career, with Valderrama being 25 or so. Today you would expect a 25-year old of his considerable talent to already be at a top CL club, but not then.
You are off the mark with other leagues being stronger than the Colombian one. Back in the 80s there was truckloads of cartel money flying around in Colombian football. América de Cali made the Libertadores final three years on the trot iirc.
That's one aspect which I think may have affected him in Europe, what I referred to as idiosyncracies. Most of that Colombian generation was familiar with the cartels and were quite dodgy tbh, I can see Valderrama not getting on much with his teammates once these weren't Colombian. Again, much like a troubled Maradona was lucky to find a home at midtable Napoli, others never cracked it.
There was also a rather established practice of buying your foreign contingent in sets of players who were proven to be complementary and adaptation would be easier than with a mixed bag. Inter had Matthäus, Klinsmann and Brehme. Milan had Gullit, van Basten and Rijkaard... What would have been a Colombian trio? Valderrama, Asprilla and Rincón? Would that be good enough for a top club? You wouldn't build a Milan or Juve team around that. Again, Francescoli is a good example, one of three Uruguayans at Cagliari. Genoa also had a Uruguayan contingent, as did Torino at some point iirc. Once you looked at "three-man packages" some countries invariably ended up only being good enough for midtable but not beyond that.
I couldn't tell precisely what was the case with him, I wasn't specifically paying attention (and there was no cable, internet, etc. to keep us feeding on football news all day), but the above factors were quite relevant back then. It was drastically different to the landscape today with most young talents leaving their domestic leagues before they reached 20 and going to the likes of Porto, or some random Russian team as a stepping stone to something bigger.
@antohan There should be an option to like posts when you go in depth like that. Always a great read.
Falcao wasn't really a regular either side of that World Cup. Still, it would have been due to them playing in Europe. Which brings you back to the previous point: playing in Europe was rare and NTs lost the player if he moved (and they missed out on int'l footie, a major deterrent). That's why Enzo only played four Copa Americas, in '91 and '93 he wasn't called up at all as "expat players" were banned. IIRC we went out in the group stage both times.
Could Argentina or Brazil field a half decent side today without their expats?
Sounds insane to drop players like Falcao because he was playing in Europe. Plus he was at his peak! WC Silver Ball, Serie A and a Champions League final with Roma around the same time.
Maybe Brazil would have won if he was there.
Maybe Brazil would have won if he was there.
Went for Chester anyway, deadly attack with a strong platform in midfield to compliment that. Was quite close and trippy had a great case to win but Chester made a more convincing case of how his players will work and they seem to function well together with clear cut roles.
But if I am not wrong this match is just a friendly at this point, no? With trippy going through to the next round instead of Pippa.
But if I am not wrong this match is just a friendly at this point, no? With trippy going through to the next round instead of Pippa.
We still need to see if Pippa just got a really short temp ban or not. But yes, most likely both these teams will go through.
Maybe doesn't win you gamesSounds insane to drop players like Falcao because he was playing in Europe. Plus he was at his peak! WC Silver Ball, Serie A and a Champions League final with Roma around the same time.
Maybe Brazil would have won if he was there.
Falcao managed less than 30 games for Brazil over a decade. I actually think that was one of the things that made World Cups very intriguing. Brazil played loads of friendlies before that World Cup, also played us in the Mundialito (World Cup Winners' Cup to celebrate its Jubilee, probably the best tourno I ever attended!), throughout you sensed they were playing samba football but lacked structure. Come the WC they added Falcao and suddenly it all clicked... then they dropped him for another two years
Grade A post, mate.
Pippa's permanently banned, then?
EDIT Or a decision has been made regardless in the interest of speeding things along - yes.
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Now, seeing as it's turned into a friendly - here's a little bit of fun, involving my unused players. I stress that this is not something I'd field in a competitive match, it's just a bit of a larf.
A magic square of sorts. Note that Valderrama gets dropped here - because he isn't fast enough, I need more mobility/fluidity here. So Francescoli takes over as the main orchestrator - he plays, as you'll recognize, a Zico role of sorts. Rocheteau, such a brilliant player on his day, plays the "faux winger" role - but to the right. And Careca leads the line. Robson's role will be even more important, arguably, in this set-up - he's the very glue in that square, while Francescoli is the main threat, so to speak. Falcao-Zico = Robson-Francescoli.
A magic square of sorts. Note that Valderrama gets dropped here - because he isn't fast enough, I need more mobility/fluidity here. So Francescoli takes over as the main orchestrator - he plays, as you'll recognize, a Zico role of sorts. Rocheteau, such a brilliant player on his day, plays the "faux winger" role - but to the right. And Careca leads the line. Robson's role will be even more important, arguably, in this set-up - he's the very glue in that square, while Francescoli is the main threat, so to speak. Falcao-Zico = Robson-Francescoli.
I preferred the other one TBH. As I mentioned before, Francescoli the playmaker would play very deep, moving anywhere across the pitch from right to left to receive and pull the strings in what was more often than not a counterattacking game. He was phenomenal at that. You will never again see a No. 10 with such workrate and willingness to put his body on the line (he was hunted down mercilessly, more so than Maradona himself who at least had more referee protection and usually played further up so defenders were more wary of conceding free kicks, while in midfield he was systematically targeted for technical fouls).Now, seeing as it's turned into a friendly - here's a little bit of fun, involving my unused players. I stress that this is not something I'd field in a competitive match, it's just a bit of a larf.
A magic square of sorts. Note that Valderrama gets dropped here - because he isn't fast enough, I need more mobility/fluidity here. So Francescoli takes over as the main orchestrator - he plays, as you'll recognize, a Zico role of sorts. Rocheteau, such a brilliant player on his day, plays the "faux winger" role - but to the right. And Careca leads the line. Robson's role will be even more important, arguably, in this set-up - he's the very glue in that square, while Francescoli is the main threat, so to speak. Falcao-Zico = Robson-Francescoli.
If you are to play him in that sort of role it is probably best to be less loaded on the right flank (providing him with a partner in crime to play through anywhere across the pitch, but also enough space for him to go on runs).
Still, I preferred him as an advanced plamaker/forward without playmaking duties entirely falling on his shoulders, then you get him in and around the box more often and he was an exceptional assist provider and goalscorer in that setting. The other role was more a "Uruguay has a crap midfield so Enzo has to do everything" role (not too different from Forlán at the last WC but often starting behind the halfway line). It worked, he would sacrifice himself and play out of his skin, but you lost his goalscoring contribution.
Again, River provided him the right platform: Almeyda & Astrada, Berti or Escudero in midfield, Sorin & Solari down the left, Gallardo & Ortega right, Crespo or Salas upfront with him as second strker. What a cracking team that was, a great generation lucky to get their first taste of first team football alongside their returning idol (Enzo was already a River legend since the mid-80s).
Agreed - absolutely. And the magic diamond variation above is really just for laughs. I intend to stick to my system - and to keep Enzo in his free role with Pierre on the right and the fat phenomenon leading the line. With the hairy genius pulling the strings behind 'em. I'll soar or crash with those boys - in those roles.
It was something along these lines I intended to do for the last draft too. The two players I wanted, but failed to get, were Enzo and Valderrama.
For me, now, it's a question of upgrading the back four - and possibly the DM role.
Cracking crop of players, that - indeed! And without making too much of the, let's say, European bias which most of us suffer from - imagine how much easier something like that is to sell if you replace "River" with a big, fat Spanish, Italian, English or German team.
These days the great South American club sides - historically GRAND sides - are reduced to "farmer" status in the minds of many, as though the likes of River, Independiente, Penarol, Boca, the Brazilian giants - are nothing but stepping stones on the way to Europe.
As for Enzo Francescoli, my greatest memories of him, personally - are from the summer of 1995. Following the Copa America, watching Uruguay progressing through the tournament, beating the world champions - on penalties, if I'm not mistaken, in the final. I remember watching that final, not entirely sober - I believe it was at The Thirsty Scholar in Manchester (I'm sure some of you know the place - it still exists, I think, it was a student sort of place back then).
Ah, memories.
Ah, memories.
It was on penos, indeed. Hehe, you will enjoy a clip I'm trying to track down. Back when we had the sheep draft I had made a pretty large highlights video of him to share (then never had the chance to fit him in!). Mixture of great play, goals and systematic fouling. Some great faces also featuring there: iirc you had Dino Baggio, Dunga and Mauro Silva all sticking their studs into him (the last two in that very final). It went through all his career, so you can clearly see the different Enzo versions according to what his side required of him.
Post it if you manage to dig it up! I need ammunition, you know - I see my chances of breezing through a QF with these boys as slim. But I will try.
On the subject of a certain Dunga - I make no secret of my intentions there. I want him as an upgrade on Petit. I see that as a fair call. Agree?
...might also add that Valderrama was a major player in that same '95 tournament. Colombia were knocked out by Enzo's Uruguay - but they did well overall, much better than they did in USA '94 obviously. And for those who are too young to remember, Colombia went into that World Cup (USA '94) as more than a dark horse - they were considered a real contender, not least considering the old "continent advantage" (American team winning on American soil, slightly faulty since the soil was NORTH American, but nevertheless, Brazil ended up winning the bloody thing).
Colombia massively underperformed, given the expectations - which of course reflects badly on the team, by all means, but it still says something context-wise about that team - and about Valderrama, as the undisputed spear head of that team.
Colombia massively underperformed, given the expectations - which of course reflects badly on the team, by all means, but it still says something context-wise about that team - and about Valderrama, as the undisputed spear head of that team.
With Robson there you may want someone more recognised as a pure holding midfielder than Dunga who was about more than just the pure defensive work. Mauro and Cambiasso could be options there. Effenberg for some reason is seen as rather defensive despite him having more in his locker, like Dunga himself. He should be fine though and definitely an upgrade on Petit.
Or you could post a clip to the qualifying game when they beat Argentina in Buenos Aires 5-0, making them play-off with Australia for access to the tourno.
Yes - I had Mauro, actually, and considered using him - but traded him. But to my thinking a more versatile DM is more in keeping with the system. Someone who can use the ball as well as being a shield. I don't want to close up shop - I'll let the other guy attack, within reason. I want a DM who is used to the role, disciplined and defensive minded - but not a thug. Less Makelele, more...Dunga, actually. I want Petit - only better. And I think Dunga fits that bill.
I'm going for a 3-2 win rather than a 1-0 - if you know what I mean. I think that's the way to play it with these boys.
Yeah, I figured that was your plan. A great plan as well, screw this overloading of negative midfielders to "win midfield battles". I was just alerting you to what ou will invariably get told. So long as your open and honest that you are not trying to bore everyone into tears and prefer an open exchange of blows it's all well and good.
I found the clip. Now I remember why I hadn't loaded it, it's one hour long and I couldn't be arsed get music for a one hour video so you get choppy music from the base videos.
Not that it matters, watched it last night and it has everything in there:
- Enzo the striker,
- Enzo the orchestrator,
- Enzo the indefatigable warrior (the NTs doctor told me once he used to lose 7 kg every time he played for Uruguay, and he wasn't exactly podgy)
- Enzo the unfortunate chap surrunded by skyblue dogshit (there are a few moves which don't end up in goals or anything in particular, but you can clearly see what his problem was, everyone gave him the ball and left it all up to him, movement from other players was non-existent, anyone with a man on would pass it back to Enzo and he would have 2, 3, 4 men on him and no one giving him options. Also some truly terrible finishing to what should have been glorious assists.
- Enzo the target for cynical recurring fouling, since all you needed to do was get him out of the game and Uruguay collapsed. But he would stand up and keep coming for more.
- Then the last half hour is purely the goal highlights from his last season at River, with Goooooool running for minutes, etc. But it's fun watching Crespo, Ortega, Salas, all in their teens or early 20s. I was watching it yesterday and wondering why the hell he retired, at his age he could no longer do the one-man team job he did for Uruguay, but River just asked him to go back to his mediapunta/support striker roots and he was scoring for fun.