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Fernandes is the caf MotM against Spurs? Really?
- Thread starter Fortitude
- Start date
Does it really matter? They were both outstanding in their own way. There doesn’t really have to be a “winner” ffs.
Bruno/Poggers are two different players playing different roles. It’s a bit simplistic to merely say that one player’s introduction made all the difference when it also allowed other players to relinquish other duties. Pogba really forced the penalty because they panicked at his threat. Great to see him back. Bruno really is outstanding and you feel you can rely on him.
Big building blocks. Looking forward to the next game.
Bruno/Poggers are two different players playing different roles. It’s a bit simplistic to merely say that one player’s introduction made all the difference when it also allowed other players to relinquish other duties. Pogba really forced the penalty because they panicked at his threat. Great to see him back. Bruno really is outstanding and you feel you can rely on him.
Big building blocks. Looking forward to the next game.
It was always going to be between Pogba, who made the goal, and Fernandes who scored it.
Personally I thought Pogba's time on the pitch outshone Fernandes, the clawing back of the ball seconds after he came on, the run into the box for the pen and the cross field volley to Rashford, all 'star' moves. Fernandes was busy, a few little flicks which did pay-off, (when a few didn't). I thought McTominay had a good game, when Matic came on he was imperious at the back, and young Mason, who still gives me hope to see a world class player leading our front line in the future, nearly got us the winner.
Personally I thought Pogba's time on the pitch outshone Fernandes, the clawing back of the ball seconds after he came on, the run into the box for the pen and the cross field volley to Rashford, all 'star' moves. Fernandes was busy, a few little flicks which did pay-off, (when a few didn't). I thought McTominay had a good game, when Matic came on he was imperious at the back, and young Mason, who still gives me hope to see a world class player leading our front line in the future, nearly got us the winner.
Personally, unless a sub does something truly spectacular, I find it hard to give them MOTM.
I think we probably would have gotten a point without him tbh. I mean do you not remember what would happen basically every single time Jose tried to have us sit on a one goal lead? Or what was happening over and over to Spurs before the break? You can't drop that deep for 35 minutes and expect the other team not to score. We had a number of chances in the game that had nothing to do with Paul Pogba...most of them had more to do with awful defending from Tottenham.
I'm not saying he didn't do well. I thought he was the sharpest and best player on the pitch for the time he was on. Fernandes was just good for the entire 90 minutes, in a game where you couldn't really say that about anyone else. He makes such a massive difference to us as a team and I think people have already kind of forgotten how much we struggled until he arrived.
I think it was right that Pogba should have to earn his way back in the team, but on the basis of last night neither Fred or Mctominay can complain if he's picked ahead of them on Wednesday, and he'll definitely be playing instead of one of them.
Yea, I agree with most of that.
In hindsight especially, I think it’s reasonable to question the merit of this ‘earn your place back’ thing. I mean, if that was all it was going to take for him to actually earn his place back, then what was the point? Last night wasn’t the best Pogba has ever played, nor was it nearly the worst McTominay or Fred has ever played. All we saw os that Pogba is a better player than both McTominay and Fred - but we knew that already (well, some of us did anyway). We don’t have time or games to wait to meet our objectives this season - and in hindsight it could be argued that a decision taken out of diplomacy has cost us. Nobody knows for certain what would have happened - but it’s not unreasonable to think that we’d have had a better chance of winning the match of Pogba had started. Given out league situation - we can’t really afford things like that, we’re in the home straight.
And of course, Rashford started - and finished - the game. And was rubbish. But he started seemingly because we know he’s better than what else we had.
It was Pogba for me but ffs do Pogba fan boys have to contribute a whole thread for the fact that the CAF voted for Fernandes?
I thought he did all the right things but not many of them came off so it was far from his best performance, but I'm also struggling to think who else I'd have given it to.
He was excellent the entire game is why. Pogba was very good for 30mins but so was bruno that last 30. Pretty easy.
Worst game I've seen him in, but for large chunks of the match he was the only one trying to make something happen.
Bruno got the goal so that will always get you brownie points. He also played a great sliding pass through for Martial who was sleeping. That was a sublime pass. He also probably had 2 or 3 of our best shots in the game too which nearly went in.
Bruno and Pogba were very good. Greenwood as well showed promise. Didn't think anyone else looked at the races. The entire back 5 were a shambles.
Bruno and Pogba were very good. Greenwood as well showed promise. Didn't think anyone else looked at the races. The entire back 5 were a shambles.
I think it's just circumstance.
Fred and McTominay have been playing well together all season. We know it works. Fernandes has been electric and Matic had been in very good form before the break. Pogba has barely kicked a ball since last August and is inconsistent at the best of times...before his injury he'd been quite poor. Plus there's still a big question mark over whether he is even planning to be here much longer. Didn't see any reason to shunt him back in. Knowing he needs to be at it to be in the team might even help get more consistency out of him.
Rashford is a bit different as we struggle to really find anyone else to play on the left in his absence, and he'd been our best player by a country mile this season until he got injured (bearing in mind this was also prior to Fernandes being here). In hindsight he looked very rusty but even so, without him we'd have been relying on James and Greenwood, and one of them was already playing anyway and actually had less impact on the game than Rashford.
In short, you can argue we're a top level attacking player light even with Rashford (much as I like James and rate Greenwood), where as midfield we actually have good options and the problem is more finding the best way to use them.
I gave Bruno and Pogba the same rating but picked Bruno for MOTM as he was good across the 90 minutes without help, when Pogba came on he was excellent but he had Bruno and Greenwood to play with which upped our overall creativity signifigantly.
Bruno Fernandes is a bit of a gambler. He can make the right decision or he can make some questionable decisions (some of his shots), he may fluff these shots or his passes come out wide but because he does it so often it's very beautiful to watch him because it genuinely does create chances upon chances. He is a risk taker.
However, yesterday Pogba was better than him because Spurs were so defensive that we needed more than a gambler- we needed someone who was able to be accurate in what he does, able to make bullet passes from deep quickly or make a nice barreling run.
Too bad Rashford and our forwards didnt have the full game to play with them and were tired by the time they were both introduced.
Pogba was MOTM. Watching Bruno Fernandes's first touches were very nice though.
However, yesterday Pogba was better than him because Spurs were so defensive that we needed more than a gambler- we needed someone who was able to be accurate in what he does, able to make bullet passes from deep quickly or make a nice barreling run.
Too bad Rashford and our forwards didnt have the full game to play with them and were tired by the time they were both introduced.
Pogba was MOTM. Watching Bruno Fernandes's first touches were very nice though.
He was hardly any worse than his first game for us vs Wolves. Actually he was more of a threat last night.
Spurs were playing so deep with so many bodies, it's always hard for an attacking midfielder. Had Pogba started maybe I would have given MotM to him. But this time it's for Bruno for sure, the penalty is also decisive.
For me the big difference between Pogba and Rashford starting is the lack of good options. Pogba not starting means Fred and McT, who work well and have proven a great combo with Bruno. Rashford not starting means either we move Martial to the left wing and get Ighalo up front or we start Mata/Lingard/Pereira on the left. Can you honestly say the two (Pogba and Rashford starting) are comparable?
As for the "earn his place", I was all for him starting from the bench and think it was a great tactical option to have. I doubt both of them (Pogba and Bruno) will play a ton of games where both start, mainly because of the hectic schedule for the remainder of the season.
I thought Bruno had a decent game against decent and well drilled opposition.
I voted for Paul, because he made the decisive run that unlocked Spurs defence and secured the penalty.
They're both top players and we're lucky to have them.
I voted for Paul, because he made the decisive run that unlocked Spurs defence and secured the penalty.
They're both top players and we're lucky to have them.
In the first half Fernandes barely got on the ball due to the poor midfield of Scott and Fred; at times he had to drop behind the pair to get the ball right from Maguire's feet, and wasn't as effective as a result.
His 2nd half was clearly better than his 1st, influenced by the positive changes of Pogba, Greenwood, and Matic. So I don't think Fernandes can do it without help, nor should he have to since we do have the help for him. We definitely shouldn't make the Pogba mistake with him.
I think it’s relative. For all the ‘we’ve played well without Pogba all season’ talk, we’re 5th in the league. There’s some perspective to be applied. However well we think we’ve played, there is still a massive margin for improvement in our team. Whether that is Pogba or not is a different conversation, but the issue that we just can’t break up this team isn’t one I’m necessarily looking at.
I think we need to step back a bit and apply some perspective. We’ve had players who have done well, largely by their standards and relative to the expectation we have of them - not necessarily relative to what it takes to be the best team in the land, which I imagine we’d like to be. Pogba has barely kicked a ball since August, but in the little time he did since then was him popping back briefly in December to remind everyone that he is at least one level above the likes of Fred and McTominay. Before that, he’d had a mixed start to the season I agree - with good games against Chelsea and Wolves, and poor game (or at least first half) against Southampton. I didn’t watch the Palace game, but I’m assuming based on the caf (which I’m not convinced is the most objective source) that he was terrible. And we did lose it, so it’s likely the case. I did see on the highlights that he played a key role in our goal though, but I’ll assume he was bad. But ultimately, nobody has kicked a ball for months anyway.
If he isn’t committed, then that’s a different matter, and we don’t know how he feels, although I’ll assume Ole does. He has two years left anyway, it isn’t like he’s out of contract this season and won’t sign. He’s not in much a different position to the likes of Kanté or Mané who have been strongly linked to Madrid this summer (like Pogba). I don’t expect their teams not to play them.
I’m personally in agreement on Rashford - I agree he should have played, and I had no issue with him starting. My only point is applying a principle that a player returning from injury needs protection. His ‘return from injury’ is actually a lot more recent than Pogba - who by all accounts was fit enough to possibly play against Spurs if the game had gone ahead at its original date in March.
All of my rambling doesn’t matter of course, if the manager genuinely thought that the team he started with was the best one he had available on the night. I’m just saying if that was not the case, we don’t really have time to be fecking about given we‘re running out of time and games. It’s more his rationale/thought process I’m questioning than anything else. If it is a case of Pogba not being fit enough, committed enough or good enough in his opinion to start - then that’s what he should do of course. My point is that if none of those were the case, and his only logic was ‘these guys have been doing alright and it wouldn’t be fair to them’ - then it’s questionable to me. His ore-match words of ‘I have to look after all of the guys’ suggests to me that he chose the players he did out of diplomacy.
This
So many good points here.
We’re 5th in the league, so how well are we really playing? and all the good performances from players are generally relative to the dross they were allowed to serve up for too long prior.
No one can definitively say Pogba is the answer but fans saying McTom/Fred/Matic are while we can’t even firmly establish ourselves in the Top4 with them are conning themselves.
We aren’t privy to Pogba’s fitness/mindset but if he was able to play more than 30 minutes yesterday he should have; your Rashford returning from injury point is exactly why.
We definitely haven't played well without Pogha most of the year, just we started playing well for 1.5 months once Bruno came in. That's the difference. We had good performances in between but weren't good at asserting ourselves until Bruno came in, and that was down to missing Pogba. Having both will be massive.
It’s not really a great thing that the same player keeps getting MOTM (similar to when Dave used to get it all the time) - to me it indicates that he is a level above the others and that we need other players of that level.
Very good point.
Bruno came in & raised the levels so suddenly people were talking McTom & Fred up to be better than Pogba which was ludicrous at the time & in 30 minutes yesterday Pogba proved to be complete lunacy.
It is imperative that we add more quality in the DM role whilst keeping Bruno & Pogba together; anything else is a step backwards.
Martial's inability to finish is not Bruno's fault
Tbf the month and a half before lockdown since he joined, we only had him and Martial really, with a bunch of squad player types in midfield and attack around them. Add Pogba and Rashford to that like we'll have from now on, Greenwood/new signing (Sancho) on the right and its a different team.
Cos he was our best player? Why the need for a thread?
I dont know why that was such a big deal? Its not like we had 5 outstanding performances on the pitch to choose from.
Plus the only contender for it played 30 mins.
Plus the only contender for it played 30 mins.
They both contributed similar amounts to the game, with the difference being Bruno scored our goal and played the whole match. Why’s that impossible in your mind?
Spot on. Many fans nowadays tend to overhype players who just do well by their standard, without acknowledging the difference in quality between them and true leading players in the league. You won't start Brown ahead of Ferdinand or Vidic just because he has a couple of good games.
Bruno played the whole match and was very good. That pass he played through to Martial was the highlight of the match, it was incredible.
Fortitude uses criticalanalysis...
He argues that Pogba is teh best rawrrr!1one..
It's super effective!
The Red Cafe is defeated.
I mean, if we're willing to give it to subs based on the quality of the performance then Greenwood should get it. Didn't put a foot wrong, which even Pogba can't claim.
Both Pogba and Bruno were good. Either makes a creditable MOTM choice. If you disagree you're wrong.
Both Pogba and Bruno were good. Either makes a creditable MOTM choice. If you disagree you're wrong.
Fernandes has been 'sloppy' in most of his games for us, to be honest. But pass percentage is not what he's on the pitch for so people haven't worried too much about it.
I gave it to Fernandes simply because I felt in the first half, he was the only one that looked to try and make things happen. Forced it at times, but looked our most threatening.
That said, I was tempted to give it to Pogba. He ultimately got us the draw with his magical play which resulted in a pen.
Im just happy to have him back. I expect him to start against Sheff, given we're at home and we'll be up against an organised team.
That said, I was tempted to give it to Pogba. He ultimately got us the draw with his magical play which resulted in a pen.
Im just happy to have him back. I expect him to start against Sheff, given we're at home and we'll be up against an organised team.
Why compare even? What interested me, was to see that Bruno was good still, and I’m happy we got him instead of Christian Eriksen, whom Spurs have not managed to replace. Also was good to see that Pogba looked fesh and hungry coming on, showed the brilliant version of himself, particularily the first ten minutes, as he grew less effective after that (not to wonder). And it seems Bruno and Pogba can work together, which would be good news certainly in the short run. Although we seemed to grow less disciplined and more vulnerable for counters towards the end, not that Spurs could punish us, as our back five grew steadier towards the back end of the game.
Yeah you’re right - and with a few quality new signings (RW, DCM, CB, Striker) we could build something pretty special.
This is going to be another one of those this player vs that player thread that this forum is so fond of among our players. Just fecking appreciate what these two did; who gives a shit who was given the man of the match?
Comfortably Fernandes. People say sloppy but he was trying a lot of difficult things and trying to open Spurs up and he created dangerous opportunities more than once.
Then again I never understood the people that would vote Zlatan man of the match when for 89 minutes and 30 seconds he’d be rubbish and a hinderance but he’d bundle a header over the line and somehow be voted as MOTM.
Then again I never understood the people that would vote Zlatan man of the match when for 89 minutes and 30 seconds he’d be rubbish and a hinderance but he’d bundle a header over the line and somehow be voted as MOTM.