FIFA are at it again

antohan

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Latest pearl in the long history of messing about with fixtures.

As we all know, back in 1966 Argentina and Uruguay complained they got to play England and Germany respectively in t he QFs, with a German and English ref. Both teams had players sent off and dodgy decisions (including Germany getting a phantom goal that wasn't, same as in the final, karma huh?).

Then in 1970, for all the talent of that Brazil side, it was somewhat curious the fixture ensured they always played at sea level bar a day trip to Mexico City for the final... while anyone playing them had to endure the altitude in the prior game. Both the semifinal and final were tied 1-1 at half time and it was only in the second half that the samba boys ran rings around leggy rivals: 3-1 and 4-1.

The last Copa America had imbalanced groups with the last two champions sharing a group and getting Japan as the weakest team, while Argentina got Qatar and Brazil got Bolivia. To add insult to injury, the fixture maximised airmiles for whoever got out of that group deliberately making them fly up and down across the country for each and every game.

In June we have a new Copa, played in regional groups, and all nicely planned until UEFA clubs refused to release players for the last FIFA date amid COVID concerns. The two games were postponed and, surely, would have to be played in June instead, pushing the whole calendar back?

Well, no, on Friday FIFA decided to stick to the original June fixtures "in the interest of fairness", i.e. minimising travel for Brazil and maximising it for rivals, as originally planned. You could argue having Argentina playing Uruguay and Brazil the week before the Copa isn't a great idea from a competitive or commercial standpoint. I could grudgingly accept that, but there's been no mention of it, only "minimising travel" (for whom?) has been argued.

But no, they haven't stopped there, they then proceeded to arbitrarily stick the missing games in the future in such a way that the original 6th round gets played in September and the 5th gets played in October. So what? They are FIFA, they do whatever the feck they want anyway.

Sure, all fixtures need to get played anyway, but look at how much easier that third October game looks for Brazil now... and how decimating that run of games can be for Uruguay's World Cup chances. Again, you can say easier fixtures will pile up elsewhere, but playing three games in 9 days is all about managing resources and fitness and there's the eventuality of players being injured "for the wrong FIFA date". It's always better to get a mix, even from a club perspective: that October errand is bound to prove costly for United.



Finally, there's yet another issue which is injuries and suspensions. I've no idea about fitness of various NT stars, but it's a dangerous precedent that FIFA can completely ignore (or not?) sanitary status and change the order of the fixtures with four weeks notice. Furthermore, Cavani would have been suspended for the game vs Argentina in Buenos Aires. A big loss, but in a game any points would be a bonus, now he is suspended for a must win game at home to Paraguay.

Dodgy feckers :mad:

Close rant.
 
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Brightonian

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Furthermore, Cavani would have been suspended for the game vs Argentina in Buenos Aires. A big loss, but in a game any points would be a bonus, now he is suspended for a must win game at home to Paraguay.
Can't even begin to understand most of that but this bit seems highly subjective. You should be able to beat Paraguay without Cavani, and Argentina are not so impossibly far ahead of you that you can't hope to get something off them provided you have your best players available. I'd want Cavani for the Argentina tie more than for Paraguay.
 

antohan

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Why is FIFA the party organizing fixtures here, CONMEBOL?
Fair point. It's Conmebol jointly with FIFA.

The changes affect the Conmebol qualifiers for FIFA's World Cup and, among other things, require FIFA to impose three more days on UEFA for the release of players by clubs in September/October (originally two fixtures in each, not three).

Hopefully gets dealt with promptly and factored into 2021/22 fixtures. Chances are it will all be a bit last minute, which is no good for us in that crucial early stage of the season (the one that cost us badly in this one :( ).
 

antohan

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Can't even begin to understand most of that but this bit seems highly subjective. You should be able to beat Paraguay without Cavani, and Argentina are not so impossibly far ahead of you that you can't hope to get something off them provided you have your best players available. I'd want Cavani for the Argentina tie more than for Paraguay.
Well yeah, we have zero chance without him while the other is winnable either way. We never won qualifiers in Argentina though, only beat them away when it's a knockout competition.

It's pretty simple: Brazil and Argentina are first and second on 12 and 10 points and are never going to miss out anyway. It's who goes along that you have to focus on and we are tied with Paraguay on 6 pts. Those games are the qualification six pointers, not Bra/Arg.
 

Brightonian

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Well yeah, we have zero chance without him while the other is winnable either way. We never won qualifiers in Argentina though, only beat them away when it's a knockout competition.

It's pretty simple: Brazil and Argentina are first and second on 12 and 10 points and are never going to miss out anyway. It's who goes along that you have to focus on and we are tied with Paraguay on 6 pts. Those games are the qualification six pointers, not Bra/Arg.
Fair enough, I see your point.
 

FuryWarrior

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Latest pearl in the long history of messing about with fixtures.

As we all know, back in 1966 Argentina and Uruguay complained they got to play England and Germany respectively in t he QFs, with a German and English ref. Both teams had players sent off and dodgy decisions (including Germany getting a phantom goal that wasn't, same as in the final, karma huh?).

Then in 1970, for all the talent of that Brazil side, it was somewhat curious the fixture ensured they always played at sea level bar a day trip to Mexico City for the final... while anyone playing them had to endure the altitude in the prior game. Both the semifinal and final were tied 1-1 at half time and it was only in the second half that the samba boys ran rings around leggy rivals: 3-1 and 4-1.

The last Copa America had imbalanced groups with the last two champions sharing a group and getting Japan as the weakest team, while Argentina got Qatar and Brazil got Bolivia. To add insult to injury, the fixture maximised airmiles for whoever got out of that group deliberately making them fly up and down across the country for each and every game.

In June we have a new Copa, played in regional groups, and all nicely planned until UEFA clubs refused to release players for the last FIFA date amid COVID concerns. The two games were postponed and, surely, would have to be played in June instead, pushing the whole calendar back?

Well, no, on Friday FIFA decided to stick to the original June fixtures "in the interest of fairness", i.e. minimising travel for Brazil and maximising it for rivals, as originally planned. You could argue having Argentina playing Uruguay and Brazil the week before the Copa isn't a great idea from a competitive or commercial standpoint. I could grudgingly accept that, but there's been no mention of it, only "minimising travel" (for whom?) has been argued.

But no, they haven't stopped there, they then proceeded to arbitrarily stick the missing games in the future in such a way that the original 6th round gets played in September and the 5th gets played in October. So what? They are FIFA, they do whatever the feck they want anyway.

Sure, all fixtures need to get played anyway, but look at how much easier that third October game looks for Brazil now... and how decimating that run of games can be for Uruguay's World Cup chances. Again, you can say easier fixtures will pile up elsewhere, but playing three games in 9 days is all about managing resources and fitness and there's the eventuality of players being injured "for the wrong FIFA date". It's always better to get a mix, even from a club perspective: that October errand is bound to prove costly for United.



Finally, there's yet another issue which is injuries and suspensions. I've no idea about fitness of various NT stars, but it's a dangerous precedent that FIFA can completely ignore (or not?) sanitary status and change the order of the fixtures with four weeks notice. Furthermore, Cavani would have been suspended for the game vs Argentina in Buenos Aires. A big loss, but in a game any points would be a bonus, now he is suspended for a must win game at home to Paraguay.

Dodgy feckers :mad:

Close rant.
So, id like to know how are you getting those -3800 miles for Brasil? Are you measuring distance from city to city and making sure you have the correct one each time? Seems to me your math might be a little dodgy if you're not, since Brasil shares borders with these rival countries (except Ecuador). I see how the 3 handpicked games in 9 days look so much worse for Uruguay now than before the change but your trip math seems unclear.
66' WC was stolen... and found behind a bush by a mut...
 
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antohan

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So, id like to know how are you getting those -3800 miles for Brasil? Are you measuring distance from city to city and making shure you have the correct one each time? Seems to me your math might be a little dodgy if you're not since Brasil shares borders with these rival countries (except Ecuador). I see how the 3 handpicked games in 9 days look so much worse now than before the change but your trip math seems a little unclear.
66' WC was stolen... and found behind a bush by a mut...
Sao Paulo to Bogotá (2,684 miles, a 6 hour flight) and back vs Sao Paulo to Asunción (702 miles, a 2 hour flight) and back.

12 hours on a plane vs 4 hours and that's with direct flights from a major hub like Sao Paulo.

Montevideo-Buenos Aires is a 40mins flights, while Montevideo-Caracas is an 8 hour charter flight but over 13 hours flying commercial.

I've assumed direct line distances, but that's some assumption... Back in 2005 the FA started bargaining with the sole charter company flying to Australia :houllier:... and the Aussies hired them :lol::annoyed:. We flew commercial via Los Angeles FFS, arrived less than 48 hours before the second leg and missed out on the World Cup in Germany :mad:
 

Charles Miller

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It was Argentina, not Brazil that asked Conmebol to change the fixture. Ecuador is stronger than Colombia. 3.800 km is not big deal. From Porto Alegre to Fortaleza is more than 4.000 km. Brazilian clubs travel much more than that regularly and have to play tired in the Libertadores.
 

FuryWarrior

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Sao Paulo to Bogotá (2,684 miles, a 6 hour flight) and back vs Sao Paulo to Asunción (702 miles, a 2 hour flight) and back.

12 hours on a plane vs 4 hours and that's with direct flights from a major hub like Sao Paulo.

Montevideo-Buenos Aires is a 40mins flights, while Montevideo-Caracas is an 8 hour charter flight but over 13 hours flying commercial.

I've assumed direct line distances, but that's some assumption... Back in 2005 the FA started bargaining with the sole charter company flying to Australia :houllier:... and the Aussies hired them :lol::annoyed:. We flew commercial via Los Angeles FFS, arrived less than 48 hours before the second leg and missed out on the World Cup in Germany :mad:
Taking a closer look at the schedule it seems very clear changes made favour Brasil greatly. Uruguay having to play against Colombia at home then 2 away games against Argentina and Brasil is ridiculous, having all 3 matches played in a span of 9 days is just insane. Oh boy they must so be affraid to let all the pieces fall into place and have Cavani score a winner in that Brasil-Uruguay thriller, it would finally bring to an end their 70 year undefeated home run.

Furthermore, I dont think teams are flying home between 6th round WCQ and Copa, its just 6 days later. Most players will probably fly straight from Europe to wherever the 5th round game is played at. So the new schedule ensures that at least because of geography, Argentina and Uruguay players will travel the furthest to home their respective 5th round games. Then travel the furthest possible across the continent to Colombia and Venezuela for 6th round, and then back south again to their respective Copa group stage zones =Argentina for both (who will be facing each other on their first Copa match). Now Brasil is travelling less than before the changes but they are still needlessly travelling South to Asunción for their 6th round WCQ match before returning North to play in their group stage home =Colombia, albeit they will be playing scrubs Venezuela and resting 4 days between matches for the rest of the group stage instead of playing the home team first and resting 3 games from then on like Uruguay.

Give Fifa chaos and they will favour Brasil, give them tools and order and they will favour Varsil.
 

antohan

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It was Argentina, not Brazil that asked Conmebol to change the fixture. Ecuador is stronger than Colombia. 3.800 km is not big deal. From Porto Alegre to Fortaleza is more than 4.000 km. Brazilian clubs travel much more than that regularly and have to play tired in the Libertadores.
It doesn't matter who asked for it. Fixtures shouldn't get chopped and changed like that.

And it's not a total but a net difference at the end of the season, days after flying back from Europe and days before Copa America starts.

It clearly is an issue, even leaving aside the sanitary implications re Covid. I'm sure not keen on flying to Venezuela a week before Copa América, nobody has a clue what the status really is there. The last place you want to stick your squad in after being there is on a plane for 10 hours or so.
 

Charles Miller

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Taking a closer look at the schedule it seems very clear changes made favour Brasil greatly. Uruguay having to play against Colombia at home then 2 away games against Argentina and Brasil is ridiculous, having all 3 matches played in a span of 9 days is just insane. Oh boy they must so be affraid to let all the pieces fall into place and have Cavani score a winner in that Brasil-Uruguay thriller, it would finally bring to an end their 70 year undefeated home run.

Furthermore, I dont think teams are flying home between 6th round WCQ and Copa, its just 6 days later. Most players will probably fly straight from Europe to wherever the 5th round game is played at. So the new schedule ensures that at least because of geography, Argentina and Uruguay players will travel the furthest to home their respective 5th round games. Then travel the furthest possible across the continent to Colombia and Venezuela for 6th round, and then back south again to their respective Copa group stage zones =Argentina for both (who will be facing each other on their first Copa match). Now Brasil is travelling less than before the changes but they are still needlessly travelling South to Asunción for their 6th round WCQ match before returning North to play in their group stage home =Colombia, albeit they will be playing scrubs Venezuela and resting 4 days between matches for the rest of the group stage instead of playing the home team first and resting 3 games from then on like Uruguay.

Give Fifa chaos and they will favour Brasil, give them tools and order and they will favour Varsil.
As Master Oogway once said: "noodle don't noodle", it wouldn't make any difference and Brasill would easily qualify anyway. The real challenge are the europeans. Its almost 20 years that Argentina can't win an official game against Brasil. Can't blame the fixture.
 

FuryWarrior

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As Master Oogway once said: "noodle don't noodle", it wouldn't make any difference and Brasill would easily qualify anyway. The real challenge are the europeans. Its almost 20 years that Argentina can't win an official game against Brasil. Can't blame the fixture.
Out of the question Brasil will qualify, frankly i have little doubt that Uruguay will qualify even with this schedule. Still the Brasil vs Uruguay fixture has allways been a thrill and a highly expected matchup, even if as said the true 6 point games for Uruguay are against Colombia, Chile and whoever is strong amongst the rest. Hate to have it spolied by unfair fixture so that Brasilian star players can shine and have an easier time readapting back to European football under a less intensive playing shcedule.

Theres 3 times as many Copa Americas on the Argentina-Uruguay zone than in the Colombia-Brasil one. Argentina and Colombia are playing hosts and Brasil and Uruguay are the two other best Fifa ranked south american countries, they should have similar resting time between matches under their respective group heads (home teams Argentina and Colombia). Far from that you can just see Fifas love all over Brasil, giving them extra breathing time when theyre style of play doesnt even require that, whilst teams like Uruguay that rely on their physicality and stamina be forced to longer travel, unfavourable oponent match order and less resting time between games. So you can just see how they've really made it easy on Brasil all across the board.

Now all this isnt new, at all. This is why Cavani is such a Talisman for Uruguay, Stamina, Workrate, Mental strength, cant face Brasil at home and play as equals without these types of players.
"the real challenge are the europeans?" not for Uruguay on WCs for some time at least. Challenge is Fifa and refs, who have been babysitting "Faroe Island" trained europeans out of facing a real defensive team like Uruguay on playoffs, except France on last WC when Cavani was lost to injury for the first time (after scoring 2 against European Champions Portugal).
Just the way things are.
Franlky i liked Brazil best when they stared real Strikers, i find all these fancy juggling just to have CAMs like Neymar score more weak as feck and makes me appreciate the real gladiators: rest less, fly more, work more, fight more, belive more, when Glory finally comes it will taste so much sweeter.
 

FuryWarrior

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It was Argentina, not Brazil that asked Conmebol to change the fixture. Ecuador is stronger than Colombia. 3.800 km is not big deal. From Porto Alegre to Fortaleza is more than 4.000 km. Brazilian clubs travel much more than that regularly and have to play tired in the Libertadores.
Argentina cant be trusted even to veil after their own interests, that's been going on for some time now.

Brazilian club teams spend half the season playing regional games, so no Porto Alegre to Fortaleza between Libertadores games.

Because geography they travel less around the continent than their strongest club rivals at Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia and Chile.

Brazilean Libertadores clubs fly charter or first class, most others do not.

PD: Just now Rentistas (Uruguay) tied from behind a game against Sao Paulo for Libertadores. Care to guess what the budget difference between teams is? Closer to 1000 than to 100 times over for Sao Paulo...

Any type of advantage for Brazil or Brazilean teams has always been disgusting from a sportsmanship point of view, which i accept as i believe it forges others into stronger teams and players. Its just a pity when fans get stuck on sometimes meaningless stats and fail to see who the real heroes are, those who push through and succeed when all the cards are stacked against them.
 

antohan

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Fair enough, I see your point.
Fixtures now played. Two goalless draws. Four points dropped that can make it really tricky come squeaky bum time.

I'm positive we would have won both with Cavani. It's not just scoring, everyone was lost out there, particularly Suárez.