Considering where we were or dug our self into, 3rd is an achievement, also bit of a relief with the after last few games, where top 4 would should have been ensured comfortably. It's not a pure celebration, mix of lot of emotions.
Finishing 3rd, 33 points off PL winners, and no Trophy (yet) is utter rubbish and shouldn't be celebrated...
- Thread starter Rhyme Animal
- Start date
In reply to the OP though I have become more optimistic about this team as the season has gone on. Since Ole came in he seems to be committed to rebuilding properly even if it puts short term results at risk. Just look at the squad turnover and improvements in general play in the last 18 months.
Fellaini out
Smalling out
Lukaku out
Three players allowed to leave because they don’t suit the way a top footballing team want to play.
The start of the season was a huge disappointment but we had Pogba injured and then Martial got injured as well. Since we got them fit and added Bruno we’ve looked really good.
Nobody is saying 3rd and semi finals is success but it is a step forward and the mess we’ve been in it was always going to be 2-3-4 steps to close the gap.
Fellaini out
Smalling out
Lukaku out
Three players allowed to leave because they don’t suit the way a top footballing team want to play.
The start of the season was a huge disappointment but we had Pogba injured and then Martial got injured as well. Since we got them fit and added Bruno we’ve looked really good.
Nobody is saying 3rd and semi finals is success but it is a step forward and the mess we’ve been in it was always going to be 2-3-4 steps to close the gap.
The conversion rate for corners is something like 3.5% or about 1 in 29.
Do any big teams put that much emphasis on them?
As far as I recall, United have been brutal at corners forever.
I wasn't able to find anything for this season. Do you know if there's corner conversion rate table available online so we can see how we're doing vs the other teams.
Most likely mid to lower level teams will be top of that list.
Many were saying exactly the same thing when Jose got us to 2nd place finish, with 81 points.
Until we beat that, no cause at all for celebration.
Until we beat that, no cause at all for celebration.
True, but many now are looking at the state of the squad and seeing an improvement in content and resilience (though with more to do). Jose's comment was that it was the best result of his career to achieve 2nd with that squad - I doubt Ole could say the same, since his work in progress project is promising (though promise and achievement are different things).
The irony here is that Mourinho was obviously being a facetious dick and has won multiple major trophies, incuding a couple at United - whereas with Ole, this actually *is* the best result of his career...!
I'm not sure that Jose was being facetious, so much as self serving, but I do take your point about this being a result for Ole - however, he'd probably value his two leagure titles with Molde over a 3rd with united I guess (even though you can argue it is a better result).
Fair enough.
Comparatively speaking, Jose achievement in his second season (81points) was significantly better.
I accept that the squad, or more correctly the first 11 show more promise.
And he has arrested our alarming slide.
But next season has to be a level up on that.
And that target of 81 points has to be a minimum goal.
We have flattered to deceive on far too many occasions.
And as Sheffield United have brilliantly demonstrated, it is not all about spending massive amounts in the transfer market. Nice as that would be.
We have the talent. But we are a long way from being a good and well coached unit.
It's obvious that Ole has more pressure on him, same with his team and players. How they cope with pressure comes with experience and being put in those pressure situations time and again.
There's much more in your post that I agree with than disagree with, but particularly that next season needs to show further progress in consistenly putting away lower league teams and banking easy points - do that and maintain our record against the top 6 clubs and we may still only get 3rd, but it will be a clear third, not one scrambled by GD on the last day.
If we could do that and perhaps win the EFL cup or FA cup, I'd regard that as good enough to demonstrate sufficient progress - unless Liverpool and City (who I still regard as being most likely to win the EPL) blow up completely, challenging for the title is unrealistic next seasons. Yes, we need to become more organised consistently, but this young team also needs to learn how to win competitions and mature in confidence so they go out expecting to win.
You're right about Sheffield United, their performance is illustrative.
I don't think anyone is celebrating the outcomes of the season as the end of the rebuilding project, but in the context of the crap Ole picked up from Mourinho, the change in the squad make up already achieved, the relative success of his signings, the improvement of players such as Fred, Matic, Martial etc, the emergence of Greenwood and Williams, with Mejbri, Laird and Mengi not far behind, the improvement in playing style, added to CL qualification and 3 semi finals means this season is a relative success, provided it is a small stepping stone on a return to the top of the european game where the club belongs.
Jose is a dick and a toxic guy. Most of the times his football could be dire but to be honest his first year was the best in that though we didn't get 4th place we played attractive football most of the time. We missed a lot of scoring opportunities.
Yes he would have sold Martial etc and he was short term only.
Ole would certainly try to improve the team unlike Jose who has no history or love for United.
But I don't see Ole taking us forward in the future. I mean winning the PL or the CL. It's just my opinion from what I have seen so far. He may if he gets a top class coach and listens to him.
Re what another op said about corners. All top teams do a variety of corners. If my memory serves me right, the last league game between Juventus and Roma, Juve scored their first goal too from the near post. We all know that we conceded the equaliser against Soton from the near post flick too. It's the most difficult to defend against is the near post flick. I mean Ole scored the CL winner from the near post flick of Teddy. If it's good for SAF then it should be good for any United manager.
Yes he would have sold Martial etc and he was short term only.
Ole would certainly try to improve the team unlike Jose who has no history or love for United.
But I don't see Ole taking us forward in the future. I mean winning the PL or the CL. It's just my opinion from what I have seen so far. He may if he gets a top class coach and listens to him.
Re what another op said about corners. All top teams do a variety of corners. If my memory serves me right, the last league game between Juventus and Roma, Juve scored their first goal too from the near post. We all know that we conceded the equaliser against Soton from the near post flick too. It's the most difficult to defend against is the near post flick. I mean Ole scored the CL winner from the near post flick of Teddy. If it's good for SAF then it should be good for any United manager.
I was bored so i made one from understat figures for each team https://understat.com/team/Manchester_United/2019. We're below average but not the worst:
| Team | Corners | Shots | Goals | Xg | XgPerCorner | ShotsPerCorner | GoalsPerCorner |
| Liverpool | 258 | 86 | 11 | 7.83 | 0.030 | 0.333 | 0.043 |
| Everton | 203 | 104 | 10 | 12.68 | 0.062 | 0.512 | 0.049 |
| West Ham | 190 | 76 | 10 | 8.50 | 0.045 | 0.400 | 0.053 |
| Arsenal | 231 | 77 | 9 | 6.94 | 0.030 | 0.333 | 0.039 |
| Burnley | 171 | 69 | 8 | 12.15 | 0.071 | 0.404 | 0.047 |
| Man City | 298 | 103 | 8 | 9.15 | 0.031 | 0.346 | 0.027 |
| Bournemouth | 194 | 79 | 8 | 7.40 | 0.038 | 0.407 | 0.041 |
| Aston Villa | 200 | 66 | 8 | 4.92 | 0.025 | 0.330 | 0.040 |
| Sheffield United | 212 | 74 | 7 | 10.53 | 0.050 | 0.349 | 0.033 |
| Chelsea | 247 | 106 | 7 | 9.70 | 0.039 | 0.429 | 0.028 |
| Tottenham | 200 | 58 | 7 | 4.20 | 0.021 | 0.290 | 0.035 |
| Brighton | 178 | 77 | 6 | 9.68 | 0.054 | 0.433 | 0.034 |
| Wolves | 193 | 65 | 6 | 6.70 | 0.035 | 0.337 | 0.031 |
| Man United | 204 | 64 | 6 | 6.54 | 0.032 | 0.314 | 0.029 |
| Newcastle | 151 | 65 | 6 | 6.05 | 0.040 | 0.430 | 0.040 |
| Southampton | 210 | 90 | 5 | 8.31 | 0.040 | 0.429 | 0.024 |
| Leicester | 222 | 73 | 5 | 5.94 | 0.027 | 0.329 | 0.023 |
| Norwich | 162 | 69 | 3 | 7.21 | 0.045 | 0.426 | 0.019 |
| Crystal Palace | 177 | 66 | 2 | 5.03 | 0.028 | 0.373 | 0.011 |
| Watford | 167 | 57 | 1 | 3.35 | 0.020 | 0.341 | 0.006 |
| Average | 203.4 | 76.2 | 6.65 | 7.64 | 0.038 | 0.375 | 0.033 |
Only Spurs and Watford had less shots on goal than us. That is not a good number.
Our conversion rate must be something like 1/200
If Jose hadn't spanked Leicester it would have been a very different story..
No, but we generate around the same shots as Liverpool who just earn more corners.
It's also probably no coincidence that the top 3 for expected goals are the top 3 for 'aerials won' in the league (we're 16th). Other than Maguire we are weak in the air.
We finished 4 points ahead of them even with a manager far better than ours (apparently).
Excellent work!
I would have done it myself if I could find a source.
Yeah pretty much as I expected. We're fairly average but not the worst and our conversion rate is about the same as City, Chelsea and Leicester.
The conversion rate on corners is so low anyway it doesn't seem worth a huge amount of effort to increase it from 6 to to the max of 11 over a season.
Yes it doesn't look a big deal. A full season of Bruno taking them with a better centre back in the air than Lindelof and I'd be surprised if we do any worse. Maguire will score a few at some point. Pogba is pretty good in the air also who missed half the season.
Defending them is probably more of an issue for us.
Nope
I too don't think attacking corners is a big deal but here's an analysis anyway.
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/a...eir-corner-routines-tactical-analysis-tactics
Directly yes
Erm no it isn't as there were multiple threads and comments on here whining that Pochettino wasn't our manager. It happened if we won, lost, played badly or well. Don't try to re-write history or think people are too stupid to remember what was going on six months ago, then have the cheek to call other people disingenuous.
The Burnley game was also after Christmas so post most of this nonsense.
Criticism was entirely fair and in some cases still is. Agenda based whining and bitterness however made this place insufferable for most of the season and when it was creeping onto all platforms I doubt was helpful for the team either.
Anyone who was saying they were worried about relegation was either an idiot or lying
If you think I'm rewriting history just take a look. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cou...fe-from-relegation-for-2019-20-season.451067/ First 20 pages of actual speculation about finishing in mid-table.
You said people slagged us off because they wanted Poch. Perhaps that was true in some instances, but most people were genuinely worried about how the situation was going.
I don't care much for either whining or relentless positivity, they're both the same to me. But I will say that in that period, the whining was completely warranted. We were shocking, and it took an expensive winter signing, a huge push, and capitulation from our competitors to catch up in the end.
I agree celebrating is ridiculous, I'm more relieved than celebrating because at one point we looked like not even getting into the Europa League. Three semi finals lost and 33 points off top place is not good enough and as I write this we have yet to sign 1 player who will strengthen our squad. It's just not good enough. Liverpool have got cover for Robertson, City have two or three in the bag and Chelsea too are already stronger. If nothing changes soon Ole won't make Christmas as this squad is just not good enough.
You could equally speculate where the club would have finished had they signed Bruno (and Igalho) in the summer rather than mid-season.
United's squad going into the season was criminally short of numbers, especially in attack. Their only chance of being competitive was to be really fortunate with injuries. Then Martial and Pogba both got injured in the first few games and the attack was reliant on James, Pereira and Lingard.
Anyone who thinks you can lose your record attacking signing, highest paid attacking player and a key midfield player, replace them with a kid from the Championship and still be an attacking force was living in cuckoo land. It was unfair to judge Ole on the offensive output of this team in the first half of the season as he simply didn't have the quality.
United are still 2 forwards (1 plus a permanent Igalho replacement) short of the attacking numbers they had when Ole took over. The form since Bruno arrived was fantastic. Add 2 quality forwards this summer and let's see what the team looks like then.
I agree with a lot of your points, however I do think Ole isn't independent of the squad planning going into the season.
In any case, I wasn't necessarily disputing that. I just think the notion of the fans whining because of no Pochetinno is incorrect because we were having a very poor campaign well into the season. A lot of the complaints had little to do with Poch, and more to do with our poor performances.
He clearly wasn't independent of the squad planning but was independent of the execution of that plan. The January signings were the ones they failed to complete in the summer and the team has looked very competitive since.
Yes, the criticism was due to performance but when the club announces a major rebuild is required, clears the squad of senior players and then signs 2 first teamers and an inexperienced kid, you've got to view the performances in context.
Can't disagree with much of that except to add that the context stretched even beyond this past season. Last season we had an equally abysmal run which had already coloured the views of a lot of people, so the reaction was understandable when we continued that poor streak into the next season.
That's what makes it hard to evaluate Ole as a Utd manager, because there's one and a half season's worth of context with wild swings in performance in between. Different people will say a certain periods matter more than others, which contributes a lot to the seemingly polarized opinions of him.
If we had been criminally short in numbers in attack as you said, Ole should have signed Bruno in the summer instead of investing 130m on defenders and relying on Lingard or a Championship player up front. Every team has a budget and you can't expect to bring in all the players you want in a window, as a manager you need to prioritize certain targets over others according to urgency, and Ole is not completely independent in execution of the plan.
Maguire replacing Smalling versus Bruno replacing Lingard/Pereira, I guess most of the sensible fans knew which signing would bring a greater impact to the team even before the season started. Ole was privileged to spend an extra 55-60m in the winter to rescue the situation, no every team had the luxury to do that. Fair play to him for turning the season around eventually, but he is also, to a certain extent, responsible for putting us in that position at the first place.
For this team to finish 3rd is a big achievement. The 'we're Man Utd, we should be doing X' brigade are too arrogant to understand that History does not entitle you to anything. For the last 7/8 seasons we've been an only slightly above average side and our league positions have reflected that.
What we need to now is a prolonged period of good decisions and to set 2/3 year goals. If naive posters like the OP think this season was bad, I'm afraid they're going to be disappointed again this season, since I think the best we can realistically do is probably 3rd again.
What we do have now is the foundations of a football team again. The first XI is good and with a couple of quality additions could be title-contenders.
We will come unstuck because our squad is INCREDIBLY weak. We've seen it when we make a changes against LASK, who let's face it would struggle in the Championship. The likes of Pereira, Lingard, Mata etc...contribute nothing in PL games.
Also, in my opinion, we only have one player capable of playing CF at the club right now (Martial), which represents a big risk - see our form over Christmas when Martial missed a few games for an insight...
Furthermore, despite all of the stick Maguire has taken this season, I would suspect if we removed him from our back four for a prolonged period you would see a return to the kinds of 'goals-against' record we've seen generally post-SAF. I'd like all of the Maguire critics out there to name me five better CBs in the PL...I'll give you two (Laporte & van Dijk)...for my money that's it!
This is also going to be a big season for AWB. I think he's a really good young defender but he needs to start to play with some of the confidence and swagger I expect in a Manchester United player. At times, he can look rattled or hesitant. Teams seemed to have worked out that they should press hard whenever he is in possession and he is clearly uncomfortable with this. Also, teams have worked out they can target him aerially with crosses to the back post. He's not great in the air and often switches off and/or gets caught under the ball (see Sevilla 2nd goal...should have covered that run, irrelevant of whether Williams/Lindelof could have done more)
So, in short, with no injuries our first team COULD feasibly finish 2nd. The chances of us being able to play 60 games with XI players is zero...so my concern is still when we are without the likes of Martial, Maguire, Pogba, Fernandes etc...I expect results to suffer disproportionately compared with other top teams and how they cope with the odd injury
What we need to now is a prolonged period of good decisions and to set 2/3 year goals. If naive posters like the OP think this season was bad, I'm afraid they're going to be disappointed again this season, since I think the best we can realistically do is probably 3rd again.
What we do have now is the foundations of a football team again. The first XI is good and with a couple of quality additions could be title-contenders.
We will come unstuck because our squad is INCREDIBLY weak. We've seen it when we make a changes against LASK, who let's face it would struggle in the Championship. The likes of Pereira, Lingard, Mata etc...contribute nothing in PL games.
Also, in my opinion, we only have one player capable of playing CF at the club right now (Martial), which represents a big risk - see our form over Christmas when Martial missed a few games for an insight...
Furthermore, despite all of the stick Maguire has taken this season, I would suspect if we removed him from our back four for a prolonged period you would see a return to the kinds of 'goals-against' record we've seen generally post-SAF. I'd like all of the Maguire critics out there to name me five better CBs in the PL...I'll give you two (Laporte & van Dijk)...for my money that's it!
This is also going to be a big season for AWB. I think he's a really good young defender but he needs to start to play with some of the confidence and swagger I expect in a Manchester United player. At times, he can look rattled or hesitant. Teams seemed to have worked out that they should press hard whenever he is in possession and he is clearly uncomfortable with this. Also, teams have worked out they can target him aerially with crosses to the back post. He's not great in the air and often switches off and/or gets caught under the ball (see Sevilla 2nd goal...should have covered that run, irrelevant of whether Williams/Lindelof could have done more)
So, in short, with no injuries our first team COULD feasibly finish 2nd. The chances of us being able to play 60 games with XI players is zero...so my concern is still when we are without the likes of Martial, Maguire, Pogba, Fernandes etc...I expect results to suffer disproportionately compared with other top teams and how they cope with the odd injury
Think a lot of that was to do with not having Pogba but also learning how to manage at this level on the job. This season we will all be hoping he did actually learn something. If he doesn't get backed like he as asked then it might not be a bad start this season, but the squad depth could very easily lead to a big slump during the season. At this point it is over to Ed and Co. to produce. The one's wanting Poch, a few injuries and he may as well be managing Southampton again.
Refreshing to read a measured and sensible post, well done!
Couldn’t agree more.
Fair point. All I would say to that though is the strategy under Ole is to get the "Manchester United mentality" back. In order to do that there is a clear target to change out the leadership group of senior players at the club to the "right characters".
They've cleared the old group out but only added Maguire as a senior player until January. This takes time (especially at United when 3 signings is a crazy summer) and there are signs that it is working which is all you can ask.
You don't think he wanted him in the summer? He played Andreas Pereira as a number 10 all pre season with Pogba behind him. Does anyone really believe that was any more than a placeholder for Bruno? Then there were the late window links for Eriksen and Dybala.
My thoughts (based on nothing more than watching the games and Ole's comments after they "finally" signed Bruno) are that Ole expected him in the summer but the club failed to get the deal over the line. He seemed genuinely annoyed when the window closed.
But where United under Ole differs to LVG or Jose, rather than sign option 7 on the list he'd rather go into the season with a gap in the squad. It's the right long term strategy but the club then needs to back the manager because there will be bumps in the road.
Dumbest thread ever.
The club has been saved from financial meltdown due to the top 4 finish and recovering from appointing 3 total charlatans over a 6 year period. We avoided disaster by the skin of out teeth. We've offloaded some seriously expensive deadwood in the form of Sanchez, Lukaku and we've seen the rise of Greenwood, Williams and return to form of Pogba, Rashfird, Fred, Martial and Shaw.
We're years behind our rivals but finally moving forward instead of backwards.
The club has been saved from financial meltdown due to the top 4 finish and recovering from appointing 3 total charlatans over a 6 year period. We avoided disaster by the skin of out teeth. We've offloaded some seriously expensive deadwood in the form of Sanchez, Lukaku and we've seen the rise of Greenwood, Williams and return to form of Pogba, Rashfird, Fred, Martial and Shaw.
We're years behind our rivals but finally moving forward instead of backwards.
I'm sure if he knew Pogba would miss half the season he would've pushed to get Fernandes.
Having Pogba as the creative force was obviously the plan until we could get Bruno.
Unfortunately his crystal ball was out of order at the time.
It's not just corners though, it's set pieces in general that could be a lot better. They're a fairly easy way to add some goals, especially in close games. Look at the top 2 by the way, I think it's definitely something they work on.
I don't disagree that our set pieces could be improved but I'd disagree that it's an easy way to score.It's not just corners though, it's set pieces in general that could be a lot better. They're a fairly easy way to add some goals, especially in close games. Look at the top 2 by the way, I think it's definitely something they work on.
Liverpool are clearly leading the way there but they were in or around mid table for this metric for the few seasons until 2018/2019.
I also think we need to delve a little deeper into the figures though. If you look at City for example, they've scored 5 from direct free kicks to our 1 which is more down to individual skill than any team coaching. We'd also need to know how many set pieces where involved so we can compare conversion rates.
However, I've been having a look and there was an article published on 17th Oct saying we hadn't scored a set piece goal since Feb.
https://talksport.com/football/6104...league-last-set-piece-goal-over-230-days/amp/
There was also interviews with Matic/Maguire where they said we had been working on corners, set pieces and it was an area that had identified as needing improvement.
I don't know when we scored the first one or if it coincided with the arrival of Fernandes but the fact that we finished the season with 8 goals from set pieces having not scored one until at least the Liverpool game on 20th Oct is quite an improvement. Although this isn't entirely surprising as almost every area of team performance has improved since then.
It will be interesting to see how it goes next season and if there in an improvement.
A comparison with 2005 is interesting
League position:
2005 - 3rd (77 pts)
2020 - 3rd (66 pts)
Honours:
2005 - None
2020 - None
Europe:
2005 - Champions League Last 16 (two 1-0 losses to AC Milan, two Crespo goals)
2020 - Europa League Semi Final loss Vs Sevilla (2-1)
Top League Goal Scorer
2005 - Rooney 11
2020 - Rashford and Martial 17
Best Cup Run
2005 - FA Cup Final loss to Arsenal (we should have destroyed them, they were obliterated for 120 mins and won on pens)
2020 - Take your pick between League Cup, FA Cup and Europa League, all three which we got to the semi final.
League position:
2005 - 3rd (77 pts)
2020 - 3rd (66 pts)
Honours:
2005 - None
2020 - None
Europe:
2005 - Champions League Last 16 (two 1-0 losses to AC Milan, two Crespo goals)
2020 - Europa League Semi Final loss Vs Sevilla (2-1)
Top League Goal Scorer
2005 - Rooney 11
2020 - Rashford and Martial 17
Best Cup Run
2005 - FA Cup Final loss to Arsenal (we should have destroyed them, they were obliterated for 120 mins and won on pens)
2020 - Take your pick between League Cup, FA Cup and Europa League, all three which we got to the semi final.