Fire at University Flats in Bolton | 15th November 2019

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The government should have organised and paid for removal of cladding and then tried to reclaim the cost from manufacturers, architects or whatever later, and no doubt standing most of the cost of course, but removal should have been the priority. And it still should.
 

esmufc07

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The government should have organised and paid for removal of cladding and then tried to reclaim the cost from manufacturers, architects or whatever later, and no doubt standing most of the cost of course, but removal should have been the priority. And it still should.
If the country were run by human beings with a modicum of human decency then that would have happened.
 

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From 2017: https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/new...ve-same-dangerous-cladding-as-grenfell-tower/

Students assured that flats at The Cube, in Bradshawgate, do not have same dangerous cladding as Grenfell Tower

STUDENTS living in the town centre have been reassured that their flats are safe, following inspections triggered by the Grenfell Tower disaster.
Not the same cladding but should have been identified then that the cladding they used was unsafe.

Good news that there are no deaths. Could have been a lot worse.
 

VeevaVee

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This is a massive issue. There are still a lot of building with flammable cladding on.
 

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I lived in Cardiff Bay the past two years that had cladding, only the final few months did they decide to have someone stationed in each apartment building 24/7.

Its amazing that profit margins mean more than human beings.
 

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I know of a situation where a building has both the Grenfell type of cladding and the Bolton stuff. The contractor that built it and their insurers are saying that it was legal at the time so are refusing to take any responsibility. It's owned by a big company so they can thankfully afford to pay it. Looking upwards of £3.5m to do so, so you can imagine that's not something that happens instantly like it needs to here.
You'd also be fecked if the company couldn't afford that. The gov grant apparently only has £80m to dish out.

In contrast the same company has another building in a different location, different contractor who immediately paid for it to be rectified because they didn't want it hanging over their heads.

So you can imagine the complicated scenarios being played out all over the country, with ultimately not enough action being taken, as I imagine many contractors will be more like the former than the latter.
 

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I know of a situation where a building has both the Grenfell type of cladding and the Bolton stuff. The contractor that built it and their insurers are saying that it was legal at the time so are refusing to take any responsibility. It's owned by a big company so they can thankfully afford to pay it. Looking upwards of £3.5m to do so, so you can imagine that's not something that happens instantly like it needs to here.
You'd also be fecked if the company couldn't afford that. The gov grant apparently only has £80m to dish out.

In contrast the same company has another building in a different location, different contractor who immediately paid for it to be rectified because they didn't want it hanging over their heads.

So you can imagine the complicated scenarios being played out all over the country, with ultimately not enough action being taken, as I imagine many contractors will be more like the former than the latter.
I worked for Unite Students for a while and they organised an inspection of all their properties immediately after Grenfell. It came back as 3 (IIRC) of the properties being high risk and a few others being of medium risk. Their response was impeccable, they moved people out of the high risk ones almost immediately (made easier by the fact it happened in June) and organised temporary accommodation for them. They then stopped taking bookings for the next academic year and moved existing bookings to their other properties and from what I remember they ended up being closed for the entire year while the cladding was removed and replaced.

I imagine the whole thing lost them well in excess of £10m but hey, nobody lost their lives so it seems rather cheap in comparison. It's a shame other housing firms and developers don't have the same view.
 

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I work in the roofing and cladding industry and am aware that the country has hundreds if not thousands of buildings covered in the Grenfell type cladding. (ACM)

We receive enquiries on a daily basis for strip and replace contracts. We haven't carried out one contract of this type as of yet but are aware that a small number have proceeded.

The problem is so large that there aren't enough contractors to complete the works. There are many other issues delaying the commencement of works such as budgets, new regulations not being clear, insurance companies fighting back and a dearth of testing facilities.
I am aware of other buildings with much worse cladding such as timber. I personal worked on a 20 storey residential block in East London which was covered in Copper cladding fully supported on plywood. If the place catches fire it will be worse than Grenfell. This isn't such an unusual type of construction and I am aware of others.

The problem is much larger than people think and when the Grenfell report about the construction comes out the story will grow. It was wrong to put the Fire Brigade report out before the construction report as the main culprits are the ones who failed to build a safe building. The fire brigade have been hung out to dry. For me the Architect is the one in the frame. He didn't properly check the works and the design was wrong. Many others will be accountable but the Architect is responsible for the design and signing off the works. Heads will role from the local authority to the Architect to the Builder to the Cladding Subcontractor but the Architect is at the top of the contractual tree and I think this will come out eventually.
 

VeevaVee

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I work in the roofing and cladding industry and am aware that the country has hundreds if not thousands of buildings covered in the Grenfell type cladding. (ACM)

We receive enquiries on a daily basis for strip and replace contracts. We haven't carried out one contract of this type as of yet but are aware that a small number have proceeded.

The problem is so large that there aren't enough contractors to complete the works. There are many other issues delaying the commencement of works such as budgets, new regulations not being clear, insurance companies fighting back and a dearth of testing facilities.
I am aware of other buildings with much worse cladding such as timber. I personal worked on a 20 storey residential block in East London which was covered in Copper cladding fully supported on plywood. If the place catches fire it will be worse than Grenfell. This isn't such an unusual type of construction and I am aware of others.

The problem is much larger than people think and when the Grenfell report about the construction comes out the story will grow. It was wrong to put the Fire Brigade report out before the construction report as the main culprits are the ones who failed to build a safe building. The fire brigade have been hung out to dry. For me the Architect is the one in the frame. He didn't properly check the works and the design was wrong. Many others will be accountable but the Architect is responsible for the design and signing off the works. Heads will role from the local authority to the Architect to the Builder to the Cladding Subcontractor but the Architect is at the top of the contractual tree and I think this will come out eventually.
Would the architect not just spec what's deemed acceptable at the time though? How aware would they be that it's so dangerous? There's not much excuse for timber frame though.
 

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Would the architect not just spec what's deemed acceptable at the time though? How aware would they be that it's so dangerous? There's not much excuse for timber frame though.
Specs change to get costs down. This happened at Grenfell. The Architect has to specifically approve any changes. It wasn't just the cladding material that was a problem at Grenfell. The fire barriers around the windows were ineffective and the insulation was combustible. The architect is meant to visit site and carry out site checks. He obviously didn't. As didn't the builder or cladding contractor.

The construction industry isn't fit for purpose when it comes to fire regulation. The architects try to blame the contractors and the contractors blame the architects and in the meantime a timebomb gets built.
 

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The most surprising thing about this news for me is that there's a University of Bolton.
 

VeevaVee

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Specs change to get costs down. This happened at Grenfell. The Architect has to specifically approve any changes. It wasn't just the cladding material that was a problem at Grenfell. The fire barriers around the windows were ineffective and the insulation was combustible. The architect is meant to visit site and carry out site checks. He obviously didn't. As didn't the builder or cladding contractor.

The construction industry isn't fit for purpose when it comes to fire regulation. The architects try to blame the contractors and the contractors blame the architects and in the meantime a timebomb gets built.
I mean how would they know the cladding was unsafe and shouldn't have been spec'd?

The checks on barriers and the like should be in the hands of an expert in the field in my opinion anyway, not someone who is an expert at other things and has a million things to think about - and they need to be involved from inception of a new build. There should be something brought in like BREEAM, but fire safety related and legally necessary, with a minimum rating you have to hit and stages above that to aim for that are incentivised. This would mean you have to have an expert involved throughout every stage and corners aren't cut.
 

blue blue

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I mean how would they know the cladding was unsafe and shouldn't have been spec'd?

The checks on barriers and the like should be in the hands of an expert in the field in my opinion anyway, not someone who is an expert at other things and has a million things to think about - and they need to be involved from inception of a new build. There should be something brought in like BREEAM, but fire safety related and legally necessary, with a minimum rating you have to hit and stages above that to aim for that are incentivised. This would mean you have to have an expert involved throughout every stage and corners aren't cut.
The architect has to know everything. The architect is responsible for the design and should co-ordinate all the different elements of the building fabric. At Grenfell the commercial team went back to the cladding contractor for a cost saving and cheaper non-fire rated cladding was incorporated. The architect should have made it his business to identify the cheaper material as not being compliant with fire regs. He didn't.

You are quite correct that there should be a controlling body specialising in fire regulations on each project but at the moment this falls under the Architects scope. He should produce a fire strategy document and ensure it is fully adhered to. This doesn't happen and Architects and builders are trying to get subcontractors to enter into design and build subcontracts thus believing they are absolving themselves of all responsibility. The problem with this is that they are wrong and they retain overall design responsibility. I've had this dispute with a number of builders over the years and been proven to be correct. It is scandalous that Architects can be this naïve but they are. Years ago there used to be a Clerk of the works who checked the works as they proceeded. Now we have inexperienced trainee architects signing off works, carried out by inexperienced, non English speaking operatives working under tighter and tighter cost constraints. It isn't fit for purpose.

The full story of Grenfell hasn't yet come out but one of the main issues was the air cavity behind the cladding acting as a flue within which the fire spread. The insulation on one side of the cavity acted as a fuel and the Cladding on the other side caught fire and melted thus spreading the fire even more. The cavity itself provided the oxygen.The fire breaks around the windows also failed allowing fire to travel from inside the building and once on fire outside the fire then spread inside through the window perimeters. I suspect the windows themselves also caught fire and probably made from UPVC. All these issues should have been picked up by the Architect.

There are fires on reasonably new buildings every week and new problems are being identified nearly every time. There are tens of thousands of timber framed buildings around the country and I believe the Bolton fire was just this. The next time bomb will be what is referred to as CLT. Cross laminated timber buildings. Whole sections of walls and roofs prefabricated off site and craned into position. I have no idea how these buildings are compliant but suspect it is to do with them being under five storeys high. This is the height up to which the Fire brigade can rescue people. Again this is scandalous because if the fire alarm fails and the inhabitants are asleep they burn.

The whole industry needs to have a root and branch reform of how buildings are designed and built. We have lost the ability to build safely and its sickening.
 

VeevaVee

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The architect has to know everything. The architect is responsible for the design and should co-ordinate all the different elements of the building fabric. At Grenfell the commercial team went back to the cladding contractor for a cost saving and cheaper non-fire rated cladding was incorporated. The architect should have made it his business to identify the cheaper material as not being compliant with fire regs. He didn't.

You are quite correct that there should be a controlling body specialising in fire regulations on each project but at the moment this falls under the Architects scope. He should produce a fire strategy document and ensure it is fully adhered to. This doesn't happen and Architects and builders are trying to get subcontractors to enter into design and build subcontracts thus believing they are absolving themselves of all responsibility. The problem with this is that they are wrong and they retain overall design responsibility. I've had this dispute with a number of builders over the years and been proven to be correct. It is scandalous that Architects can be this naïve but they are. Years ago there used to be a Clerk of the works who checked the works as they proceeded. Now we have inexperienced trainee architects signing off works, carried out by inexperienced, non English speaking operatives working under tighter and tighter cost constraints. It isn't fit for purpose.

The full story of Grenfell hasn't yet come out but one of the main issues was the air cavity behind the cladding acting as a flue within which the fire spread. The insulation on one side of the cavity acted as a fuel and the Cladding on the other side caught fire and melted thus spreading the fire even more. The cavity itself provided the oxygen.The fire breaks around the windows also failed allowing fire to travel from inside the building and once on fire outside the fire then spread inside through the window perimeters. I suspect the windows themselves also caught fire and probably made from UPVC. All these issues should have been picked up by the Architect.

There are fires on reasonably new buildings every week and new problems are being identified nearly every time. There are tens of thousands of timber framed buildings around the country and I believe the Bolton fire was just this. The next time bomb will be what is referred to as CLT. Cross laminated timber buildings. Whole sections of walls and roofs prefabricated off site and craned into position. I have no idea how these buildings are compliant but suspect it is to do with them being under five storeys high. This is the height up to which the Fire brigade can rescue people. Again this is scandalous because if the fire alarm fails and the inhabitants are asleep they burn.

The whole industry needs to have a root and branch reform of how buildings are designed and built. We have lost the ability to build safely and its sickening.
Fully agree with everything you've said here. I'm just a bit uneasy about pointing the finger at an architect who was probably under the impression the cladding is ok to use just like it has been up and down the country. That they could use it is the issue for me, and that the cavity was allowed too. There should have been something in place, research, legislation and an outside body to advise, to stop that happening.
 

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The architect has to know everything. The architect is responsible for the design and should co-ordinate all the different elements of the building fabric. At Grenfell the commercial team went back to the cladding contractor for a cost saving and cheaper non-fire rated cladding was incorporated. The architect should have made it his business to identify the cheaper material as not being compliant with fire regs. He didn't.

You are quite correct that there should be a controlling body specialising in fire regulations on each project but at the moment this falls under the Architects scope. He should produce a fire strategy document and ensure it is fully adhered to. This doesn't happen and Architects and builders are trying to get subcontractors to enter into design and build subcontracts thus believing they are absolving themselves of all responsibility. The problem with this is that they are wrong and they retain overall design responsibility. I've had this dispute with a number of builders over the years and been proven to be correct. It is scandalous that Architects can be this naïve but they are. Years ago there used to be a Clerk of the works who checked the works as they proceeded. Now we have inexperienced trainee architects signing off works, carried out by inexperienced, non English speaking operatives working under tighter and tighter cost constraints. It isn't fit for purpose.

The full story of Grenfell hasn't yet come out but one of the main issues was the air cavity behind the cladding acting as a flue within which the fire spread. The insulation on one side of the cavity acted as a fuel and the Cladding on the other side caught fire and melted thus spreading the fire even more. The cavity itself provided the oxygen.The fire breaks around the windows also failed allowing fire to travel from inside the building and once on fire outside the fire then spread inside through the window perimeters. I suspect the windows themselves also caught fire and probably made from UPVC. All these issues should have been picked up by the Architect.

There are fires on reasonably new buildings every week and new problems are being identified nearly every time. There are tens of thousands of timber framed buildings around the country and I believe the Bolton fire was just this. The next time bomb will be what is referred to as CLT. Cross laminated timber buildings. Whole sections of walls and roofs prefabricated off site and craned into position. I have no idea how these buildings are compliant but suspect it is to do with them being under five storeys high. This is the height up to which the Fire brigade can rescue people. Again this is scandalous because if the fire alarm fails and the inhabitants are asleep they burn.

The whole industry needs to have a root and branch reform of how buildings are designed and built. We have lost the ability to build safely and its sickening.
I agree that the architect should know everything about all the materials involved with the build, however, should the Building Control department from the Local Authority on this build not also be part to blame? They're the ones that are on site inspecting the works all the way to completion (clearly not done properly, if at all) and wouldn't they have received a change of cladding materials that would have come their way from the architect for approval? If not then surely they would've saw for themselves when visiting the site, that the materials used were not what were approved originally.
 

blue blue

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I agree that the architect should know everything about all the materials involved with the build, however, should the Building Control department from the Local Authority on this build not also be part to blame? They're the ones that are on site inspecting the works all the way to completion (clearly not done properly, if at all) and wouldn't they have received a change of cladding materials that would have come their way from the architect for approval? If not then surely they would've saw for themselves when visiting the site, that the materials used were not what were approved originally.
Yes I agree.

The cladding contractor should also have known the type of cladding wasn't fire rated. I fix this stuff and it's very obvious what is fire rated and what isn't.

I also suspect the quality of workmanship was also partly to blame.

There are so many things to come out but in the end the whole team probably failed.

I see terrible quality control on some projects and have had enough of it. There are huge sales teams traveling the country selling new products that nobody really take the time to understand yet they get incorporated into new buildings. I can't wait to get out. I'm ashamed to be part of such a dysfunctional industry.
 

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If every resident had plenty of guns and ammo they could have shot the cladding off before it spread. Is the D Man hibernating, how could he miss such a twitter opportunity?

Bolton Boston who fecking cares? :rolleyes:
 

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Would the architect not just spec what's deemed acceptable at the time though? How aware would they be that it's so dangerous? There's not much excuse for timber frame though.
The dangers of this cladding have been widely known about since 2010. The issue is not that the achritects are doing their job wrong, its that contractors and subcontractors are subbing specified products which are potentially compliant for cheaper alternatives with little regard for the compounds used in the construction of the material. Further, unless core samples are taken it is impossible to determine how much polyethelene is in the core of the material. In Australia we have a ban on anything with over 30% poly coring.

We are currently going through the same process where thousands and thousands of buildings are being stripped down and replaced. We had new laws come in in 2017 which effectively meant that the government and the fire safety authority could put an immediate rectification order on the building and force immediate evacuation of the building if necesssary.


This issue is the new asbestos btw...
 

mariachi-19

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The architect has to know everything. The architect is responsible for the design and should co-ordinate all the different elements of the building fabric. At Grenfell the commercial team went back to the cladding contractor for a cost saving and cheaper non-fire rated cladding was incorporated. The architect should have made it his business to identify the cheaper material as not being compliant with fire regs. He didn't.

You are quite correct that there should be a controlling body specialising in fire regulations on each project but at the moment this falls under the Architects scope. He should produce a fire strategy document and ensure it is fully adhered to. This doesn't happen and Architects and builders are trying to get subcontractors to enter into design and build subcontracts thus believing they are absolving themselves of all responsibility. The problem with this is that they are wrong and they retain overall design responsibility. I've had this dispute with a number of builders over the years and been proven to be correct. It is scandalous that Architects can be this naïve but they are. Years ago there used to be a Clerk of the works who checked the works as they proceeded. Now we have inexperienced trainee architects signing off works, carried out by inexperienced, non English speaking operatives working under tighter and tighter cost constraints. It isn't fit for purpose.

The full story of Grenfell hasn't yet come out but one of the main issues was the air cavity behind the cladding acting as a flue within which the fire spread. The insulation on one side of the cavity acted as a fuel and the Cladding on the other side caught fire and melted thus spreading the fire even more. The cavity itself provided the oxygen.The fire breaks around the windows also failed allowing fire to travel from inside the building and once on fire outside the fire then spread inside through the window perimeters. I suspect the windows themselves also caught fire and probably made from UPVC. All these issues should have been picked up by the Architect.

There are fires on reasonably new buildings every week and new problems are being identified nearly every time. There are tens of thousands of timber framed buildings around the country and I believe the Bolton fire was just this. The next time bomb will be what is referred to as CLT. Cross laminated timber buildings. Whole sections of walls and roofs prefabricated off site and craned into position. I have no idea how these buildings are compliant but suspect it is to do with them being under five storeys high. This is the height up to which the Fire brigade can rescue people. Again this is scandalous because if the fire alarm fails and the inhabitants are asleep they burn.

The whole industry needs to have a root and branch reform of how buildings are designed and built. We have lost the ability to build safely and its sickening.
The big issue is when the architect is provided a certified product that is supposedly compliant... yet that product was probably made in another country (guess where?) and during the manufacturing process, the material was changed without warning to save costs on the manufacturer/supplier end...