it is clear mate. Trust me, i don’t want to turn this to a religious debate, but it is very very clear.
anyway, Enjoy the tournament!
Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful
- Thread starter GaryLifo
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anyway, Enjoy the tournament!
people can do whatever they want unless they offend others. That’s basics. When in rome, do as the romans do
won’t go into a religious discussion here, but a muslim can not accept this as normal and thus the law.
you’re so stressed mate. Take it easy. Enjoy the football in the tournament.
And THIS is the problem. Your religious beliefs tell you that homosexuality is not normal and therefore you essentially have a world view that is considered backwards amongst progressive society.
Every religion taken at face value presents challenges to cultural norms, because they’re all based on extremely ancient scriptures. But religions have always carefully selected what they choose to ignore and change along the way as it navigates its cultural importance. The role of women being a prime example of how religions have adapted to a world where women are equal to men (for the most part) - obviously not all religions are quite as progressive as others with this adaptation but the premise is there.
Taking this conversation back to Qatar, a dry country due to its religious/cultural norms is allowing the sale of Budweiser all be it slightly restricted. Selective because it suits them for the £££
As I said bad as the Qatari guy
Funny to you but true
Who is to say what's backwards and what is progressive?
The very religion the Qataris claim to follow and you may think is backwards was the first to give women rights to inheritance, vote, divorce and still doesn't accept a woman taking the name of her husband. This was 1400+ years ago. Whilst the progressives were arguing about mental capabilities based on gender and colour.
Still true
I dont know if you are religious person or not, I myself have been around the block a bit and am now religious. Muslim. I don't expect you to agree with me here but I don't buy the whole human rights so can't disagree point. I speak of the general concept not specifically LGBTQ here.
Human rights are basically just that. Decided for and by humans. I believe in a higher authority. As humans you and I can disagree. What's right for you may not be right for me. So I refer it to the higher authority. For me those rights trump any others.
Simplistic and may not sit well with others but there we are.
Again, won’t discuss my religion over here. i disagree with part of what you said and agree with another.
I’ll stop here. I’m done with this thread
Sure we all know that.
But you're comparing offending someone with a viewpoint with making someone illegal for who they are.
But I think you probably know this.
I don’t agree that there is a higher authority but you have summarised the fundamental difference in view points very succinctly. Which is why it’s a bit pointless for secular European like me to bash religious people from other parts of the world on this point. As an observation, I’d also note that, whatever the official position, things like homosexuality are tolerated in practice to some extent in the Gulf countries. Even in Riyadh there was a gay club (so a work colleague reliably informed me). From my perspective, it would be much more sensible for the law there to reflect the reality of human nature rather than the idealised version presented in a holy text but the position is more like the “pretend it doesn’t exist” hypocrisy of pre-1970s Britain than rabid homophobia.
Jesus, mate. Make your bait less obvious in future. Being a pissy little reddit type user doesnt become you
still stressed? Move on
You do seem to be baiting a little bit in this thread.
You have asked if homosexuality is a choice or not and written about how you expect to be slated for asking, you've been answered on that very politely and ignored it completely just rewriting your original post pretty much again.
Now you are saying you do not believe in human rights at all, as our rights are set by a higher power and in your understanding, that higher power is effectively homophobic.
But not all Muslims believe this, like all religions, texts and laws are open to interpretation. There are plenty of Muslim countries where homosexuality is legal, like Indonesia or Turkey. Pakistan even recognises the rights of trans people. Islam is not an inherently homophobic religion, as I'm sure you are aware it preaches kindness, charity, forgiveness and justice, this is completely at odds with homophobia.
Noone is upset about the world cup being held in a Muslim country, they are upset that it is being held in a country where homosexuality is illegal and that's frankly no better than the apartheid laws in South Africa.
So it comes back to your choice, you choose to interpret your religion in a way that discriminates against certain people for a trait they have no control over (homosexuality has been observed in over a thousand different species, they're not all just deciding to be gay) and that choice is abhorrent.
Islam does not dictate this choice but your decision of how you practice Islam does, this choice to discriminate and reject charity, forgiveness and kindness for LBGTQ people is on you, not any higher authority.
Well said. I mean the human rights comment speaks volumes about the kind of person he probably is….
If i were a dutch man in the uk would it be ok to smoke weed on british soil? Or do i have to respect british law even thougb its my right?
So sexuality is just a discretionary recreation activity?
Said perfectly.
Amazing that we're still seeing posters post shit like this as some kind of gotcha after 27 pages.
It is backwards though. Islam might have been progressive 1400 years ago but it hasn't been updated at all since then (which is apparently proof of it being the word of god). You're literally following rules that haven't been changed in centuries. How is that not backwards?
Why don't you just come out and say it in plain terms? Why the word salad?
Essentially you want to say that your religion dictates that you can not consider LGBTQ people as deserving of same rights as 'normal' cisgender heterosexuals. If you are going to be a bigot then just own it rather than hiding behind ambiguous words.
Did you just create an account on here to post this nonsensical comparison?
his IP location will be interesting
Bravo.
I'm not baiting in the slightest. This is a forum and we discuss our thoughts, beliefs etc. I was trying to be honest.
I don't think I've ignored anything. I've simply said it's not something I've looked into in detail, albeit have googled and it would be of interest, to me, to discuss and even be educated on the matter. I have stated that from what little I have seen (googled basically) there is difference of opinion but this maybe because it depends which person/s is arguing what.
I was very careful in saying I was looking at human rights in the wider context and not in terms of LGBTQ. I also wasn't saying I don't believe in human rights. I was making the distinction about who decides human rights.
As a student of Islam I disagree that texts and laws were open to interpretation. That is what drew me to Islam in the first place. The specifics are specific. The general isn't on big issue.
I can go into specifics but then it becomes a religious discussion. Pakistan laws on trans gender are based on transgender laws from Prophet Muhammad's time. Which were ahead of their time and still are imo. But again a different conversation
I've not drawn distinction or engaged in what some call whataboutery with what other countries have or have not done. Personally I don't think it would have been a big issue until it's been made a big issue. I personally know what is"illegal" in these countries but goes on anyway and a blind eye is turned. I as a Muslim wasn't happy with Qatar spending billions on a tournament when they turn a blind eye to other things such as povertybin the Muslim world. Again this is a religious teaching and I don't want to preach
I don't interpret my religion. It's fairly straightforward. Again another thread topic maybe. And Islam doesn't discriminate in the way people think. Again I can go through actual things happening over 1400 years ago to do with trans and homosexuality that would explain this. I certainly don't want to go into the species thing because personally I find that a little ridiculous and contradicts some of the evolutionary aspects that have been argued for years. Again maybe a different discussion.
Again I was talking about human rights in the wider context. And specified that.
Islam absolutely does dictate my choice and I choose to let it. The higher authority is absolutely what tells me that I have to be just and not be an oppressor. It is absolutely why I can dislike or not follow a concept but I would never discriminate against an individual. Again in the wider context. So a random thing maybe tattoos. Islam forbids it but I wouldn't firstly go up to a non Muslim and say it's not allowed and neither would I think less of them as a person or discriminate against them.
The desperation to get that last word even though you have nothing of value to say must be bothering you so much. Be brave, little one. Be brave.
Such a need seems systemic in this thread.
Well, for one, this is not the moral high ground you think it is, because it is not your place to condemn or deny whether a person has tattoos or not.
Second, this is the 100th time I've seen someone equate personal choice to homosexuality. Having tattoos is a choice. Sexual Orientation is not. I may be a complete simpleton, but even I understand this.
Damn it, you've got us. Lets end the discussion here, there's no coming back from this one lads.
No, you see this argument mis-applied by people who want to protect their right to discriminate against people
Liberalism is not about accepting the intolerance of others. It's about defending the rights of the individual to make personal choices (amongst other things)
Respecting an individuals culture is one thing but how do you defend discriminating against someone based on their beliefs, their sexuality or their ethnicity?
Basically, I'll defend the right of any individual to believe, to be or to do whatever they want...so long as them doing so doesn't infringe of the ability of others to do the same...and that's the key point
I've been thinking about this a little. And I think all the talk of people having to "respect the local culture" is actually backward. If a country that has been utterly irrelevant to the sport wants to host the biggest tournament in the world, then that country should be prepared to respect the culture of the tournament and not impose its local rules on any of the people from other nations coming to the tournament. That means to host the World Cup, Qatar should be okay with dressed-up or shirtless fans that drink alcohol publicly, Qatar should be okay with scantily clad women who have no restrictions that male fans don't, Qatar should be okay with public displays of affection, but most importantly, they should be required to be okay with granting LGBT+ fans with all the rights and freedoms of heterosexual couples (and that should include public displays of affection). If Qatar doesn't want to be okay with these things, it shouldn't be hosting the World Cup. That's really the least that Qatar should be required to do if they want this honor and privilege of hosting this historic event that they really don't deserve.
This isn't even taking into account the fact that Qatar should have had the World Cup straight taken away from it when the human rights abuses and deaths of migrant workers building the stadiums came to light.
This isn't even taking into account the fact that Qatar should have had the World Cup straight taken away from it when the human rights abuses and deaths of migrant workers building the stadiums came to light.
I disagree, there are human rights, that apply to all, that's it. No group should have their own individual rights, because that's not possible without their rights infringing on others.
Not sure what you mean. LGBTQ+ folks are one of the most discriminated groups as it stands in the world today. Hence why it needs to be proclaimed that their rights are part of any human rights one may want to define. No right can be defined as "human right" if it involves discriminating against someone.
You are probably one of those who shouts "All Lives Matter" when people bring up "Black Lives Matter".
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