That shouldn’t be a question to ask because the alternative option Matic is playing like zombie nowadays.
Fred and McT can’t defend… or can they?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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So I decide to compare McFred with Fabian Ruiz. You can see what the problem is, the lack of creativity in that double pivot. If Bissaka is as creative or productive as Luke Shaw or Trent, I think McFred will make more sense. But Bissaka isn’t productive enough.
Fred is not a bad player. I think his main weakness is in his poor first touch and composure on the ball that frustrate people because he tends to lose possession easily (stats below shows it).
In my opinion, the problem is not Fred but McTominay. I like McTominay but he’s a squad player in my view and should take Matic’s minute and new player should take his minute next season. He’s basically the worse version of Fred but less fluid and slower. The only thing McTominay offers that Fred doesn’t is his scoring goals (since he’s box to box), shooting technique, clearing the ball more and better in aerial duel/physical presence. Passing, playmaking, and other defensive aspects, he’s much worse than Fred.
Fred is not a bad player. I think his main weakness is in his poor first touch and composure on the ball that frustrate people because he tends to lose possession easily (stats below shows it).
In my opinion, the problem is not Fred but McTominay. I like McTominay but he’s a squad player in my view and should take Matic’s minute and new player should take his minute next season. He’s basically the worse version of Fred but less fluid and slower. The only thing McTominay offers that Fred doesn’t is his scoring goals (since he’s box to box), shooting technique, clearing the ball more and better in aerial duel/physical presence. Passing, playmaking, and other defensive aspects, he’s much worse than Fred.
Except we’re 10 points behind City and went out in the group stages of the CL, so that isn’t seriously challenging. I’m talking about long term over the course of a season, not the individual games. I don’t think the issue is the strikers, as we had plenty of games with Cavani where he looked completely flat and wasn’t given any service.
That doesn’t mean we aren’t able to compete, or that McFred isn’t a good combination, because they clearly work well together, and importantly (which is my whole point) have been given a chance to form a partnership. It is just my belief that the quality isn’t high enough on the ball in the long term.
Pogba Bruno Fred and McTominay play together only in big games, and it's been working fine for us recently. But in general when we play Fred and McTominay against low to mid table teams we have a very good record of points per game. Last time I checked it was better than MCity (but I can't check because I don't have my laptop with me, maybe later today).
Our problem is playing against big teams in games that really matter, and that's why I think we should get a proper DM. Neither of Fred, McTominay and Pogba in midfield is the solution for that.
One thing I don't understand is why so many people think Matic legs are gone. I have not seen it this season, whenever he plays he has a good performance and doesn't look slower than McTominay or Pogba. Ole just doesn't pick him.
Matic has been poor almost every match he's played this season and we can't compete in midfield when he plays. He sits in the defence half the match (something he's always done but it seems to be getting worse) which takes the pressure off himself but which leaves us basically playing a one man midfield. That one man (whether it's Pogba, Fred or McTominay) then invariably has a poor game and gets completely overrun by the opposition normally surrounding him with three players. We then struggle to create anything and get run through far too easily defensively. Some people blame that midfielder but in reality no player can hold a midfield literally by himself.
I think Fernandinho would have gone across the player at 0.06 and does one of his professional fouls. It prevents a goal though. McTominay just leaves him pass
As we have seen, it's all about pairings in the history of football. We have seen enough here over the years. I think when we have seen the best in Fred is when he plays with Pogba, a ball playing midfielder. This isn't unusual as many teams have a scrappy midfielder who brings energy, win the ball back and easy pass to a Pogs type player.
Carrick's positioning and reading of the game was excellent. He was able to cut out passing options and shut down attacks before they became dangerous. Its partly why he was able to play centre back so effectively when asked.
Fred is our best ball winner, McTominay is the one who is lacking in the pairing, though he is still a good player in his own right. We need somebody who can sit and cover on their own whilst Fred closes the ball down.
Fred is our best ball winner but he should not be the last player in front of the defensive line. His tackling is poor, and is very very weak (easy to brush off). He would do well to play supportive midfielder, buzzing in central areas. I agree McTominay should be the one to be replaced. It doesn't mean we should get rid of Scott, but for now he should be a midfielder/centre back substitute.
I see, so you assume Matic sits in the defence because he wants to take the pressure off himself. I believe it's something he's told to do, because both McTominay and (to a lesser extend) Fred do the same at times. It seems our way of playing football, we leave one man in midfield because in the buildup ball goes from defensive line directly to forwards, bypassing central area. This happens often, regardless who plays in midfield.
I was taking your point quite literally about competing with the best in Europe. It's not our results in those bigger games that have seen us fall behind City or go out in the group stages of the CL, which was my main point.
You look at our league defeats this season, Palace, Spurs & Sheffield United - we didn't play the Fred/McTominay double pivot - and even the Arsenal home defeat where they both played, it was as part of a diamond with Pogba on the left of the 3 who ultimately gave away the penalty for the goal.
And then you look at the Champions League, Basaksehir & Leipzig defeats - we didn't play Fred/McTominay. The PSG defeat where they did play, Fred was sent off seconds after we went behind having been on top for the whole second half prior to that.
I mean you could even go a step further at the FA Cup as well, defeat to Leicester was another game we didn't start Fred/McTominay.
What I'm getting at here is the issue isn't those two as a pairing, it is the serious lack of quality & players who play a similar style of football replacing them when they drop out of the team. Our third option in those positions tends to be Matic who is a completely different midfielder altogether & doesn't suit how we press or move the ball nowadays and it is striking that 6 of our 9 defeats this season have come with Matic in the team.
All midfielders will drop into the defence to help out at times. Fred, McTominay, Pogba, Carrick, Scholes...they all do it. But none of them, and off the top of my head I can't think of anybody in another team either, does it anywhere near as much as Matic. That's why I doubt it's deliberate tactic by the management, especially when combined with the fact that Matic barely plays anymore. It ends up having a negative impact on the team as a whole.
They work well as a team, compliment each other well and know each other’s game. There are positives to have from that.
however, neither of them are a sitter. Sometimes we need that and we don’t have it currently. Matic is actually dead he doesn’t realize it yet
however, neither of them are a sitter. Sometimes we need that and we don’t have it currently. Matic is actually dead he doesn’t realize it yet
I agree it has a negative impact on the team as a whole, but my point is I've never seen any problem with Matic fitness. It's just people repeating the same things about his legs gone.
Anyway, I think Ole just doesn't see Matic as the future so he uses him as a stop gap when we need to secure the midfield /defense.
I think the 'legs are gone' comments are more about him becoming increasingly slow in his reaction speed along with his actual speed. Not general fitness.
This is exactly what has been. We lack the depth in squad. If we have another player able to partner with either of McFred with the similar effect so that we can rotate among three in such condensed match schedule, we would be more competitive overall.
I actually have a feeling that Tuanzebe probably is able to do that role considering his skill set. But, there must be a reason for the coaches not considering it.
More concerned with whether they can pass. By all accounts, Ole seems to be more interested in whether his centre halves can pass a football than his central midfielders.
What doesn't add up is that they are a good defensive duo but most posters don't really know anything so they have it wrong
Agreed. With all this talk of Rice it seems to me we’re overlooking Neves. What are your thoughts on Neves?
What you're missing is that most top teams you're comparing with won't play 2 destroyers, and even with the both of them we're still not topping the defensive charts. In addition they often offer pretty bad buildup play, as expected from 2 ball winners playing together.
So yes, you can see the logic of them individually being liabilities when comparing with how top teams usually set up.
McTominay isn't a destroyer. He's a normal central midfielder that just isn't very good on the ball so people seem to think he's actually doing a lot defensively. He's not. In reality he's not doing any more than what a player playing in his position should be doing. If we bring in somebody new we wouldn't want somebody who does less defensive work than Scott; it's just that he needs to combine that with also providing more creatively.
Both Liverpool and Chelsea play a more defensive central midfield combination than we do. They just tend to also provide more on the ball than McTominay in particular and, with some of their midfielders, Fred to a lesser extent.
Yeah, this is the real problem. There are so many occasions where Matic pushes up to try and win the ball, and he does it so slowly that the opposition have time to settle and then beat the player. At least Fred and McTominay both can challenge quickly enough to unsettle the opposing ball holder.