German Football 21/22 | "Der Klassiker", Sat 18:30

Blackwidow

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Oh okay, I assumed the meeting had been today, since that's when news of it seems to have come out. But good for Bayern, if they did this before the game and not "just" as a reaction to a silly loss.
But the question as always is - "who is the mole?" - or probably "who are the moles?". Things come out too easy at Bayern - especially in such details.
 

do.ob

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But the question as always is - "who is the mole?" - or probably "who are the moles?". Things come out too easy at Bayern - especially in such details.
I guess at a club like Bayern it's easier to ask who (or whose agent) doesn't have a reason to make deals with Bild to keep them from reporting something or to further one's standing in the public/NT. However in this case I assume that between the loss against Augsburg (which through the criticism of Sabitzer indirectly involved Kimmich's quarantine) and the new quarantine cases it was probably in the leadership's best interest to "leak" this, so the club doesn't look like they are being made a fool of by their anti-vax contingent.
 

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It's also a shame that out of the five players, who are named as being unvaccinated, four are German and three of them current internationals even.
I have to admit I am kind of bummed about Musiala on that list. With Kimmich it mostly reinforced my distaste for the man but I actually thought Musiala was a pretty decent bloke.
 

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Very disappointing from all of them. I pretty much expected Gnabry to be among them, since him and Kimmich are thick as thieves.

I think the club's reaction is very appropriate. Now let's see whether the salary cuts make our vaccinated players reassess the severity of side effects of the covid jab...
 

do.ob

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The irony of it all is that Bayern's biggest practical problem is that these five actually remained healthy. For example Dortmund's known anti vaxers (Brandt and Meunier) got infected right as the season started, so even thought they might have an identical mindset to Bayern's guys they sat out two weeks at the start and now they don't have any issues with quarantines at all during the ongoing/upcoming winter wave(s) and the media pays them absolutely no attention.
 

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The irony of it all is that Bayern's biggest practical problem is that these five actually remained healthy. For example Dortmund's known anti vaxers (Brandt and Meunier) got infected right as the season started, so even thought they might have an identical mindset to Bayern's guys they sat out two weeks at the start and now they don't have any issues with quarantines at all during the ongoing/upcoming winter wave(s) and the media pays them absolutely no attention.
To be fair it sounds a lot like most clubs might have two or three unvaccinated players in their squad. They usually don't confirm individually, but a lot are talking of "more than 90% vaccinated". Add to that the players who already recovered you get very few players that still need to test themselves all the time. The amount Bayern have appears to be exceptionally high.
 

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The irony of it all is that Bayern's biggest practical problem is that these five actually remained healthy. For example Dortmund's known anti vaxers (Brandt and Meunier) got infected right as the season started, so even thought they might have an identical mindset to Bayern's guys they sat out two weeks at the start and now they don't have any issues with quarantines at all during the ongoing/upcoming winter wave(s) and the media pays them absolutely no attention.
Brandt is an anti vaxer? fecking hell. And I thought he always came across as a rather reflected and intelligent football player in his interviews.
 

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Brandt is an anti vaxer? fecking hell. And I thought he always came across as a rather reflected and intelligent football player in his interviews.
Family background. His mother seems to deal in some more esoteric ways to heal people.
 

do.ob

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Family background. His mother seems to deal in some more esoteric ways to heal people.

"Furthermore I have to thank my mother for never getting a serious injury"

>"Why your mother?"

"Ever since I have been a kid, I've been mainly treated osteopathically and homeopathically. There are many, who smirk at that. But I was raised that way, even our dog gets some. And nothing serious ever happened to me. That's that basis for a successful career. My mother is the basis for why everything went so well."

https://www.morgenpost.de/sport/fussball/article226121057/Julian-Brandt-Ich-moechte-vorangehen.html
 

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"Furthermore I have to thank my mother for never getting a serious injury"

>"Why your mother?"

"Ever since I have been a kid, I've been mainly treated osteopathically and homeopathically. There are many, who smirk at that. But I was raised that way, even our dog gets some. And nothing serious ever happened to me. That's that basis for a successful career. My mother is the basis for why everything went so well."

https://www.morgenpost.de/sport/fussball/article226121057/Julian-Brandt-Ich-moechte-vorangehen.html
Captivating logic right there.

Family background. His mother seems to deal in some more esoteric ways to heal people.
Never knew that. Still a bad excuse for a 25 year old, imo.
 

do.ob

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The state of NRW just issued a new corona measure that allows stadiums to remain at their current capacity (100% for seats, 50% for standing areas) and that forbids people who fall outside of the 2G rule from doing sports, including professionals. However for the time being, as a transitional period, they have granted professional athletes the exception that they can get around it with a negative PCR test and the article also features a professor, who thinks it would be difficult to get this past labor law, considering footballers already follow a rigorous testing schedule and have a very high vaccination rate.
But I guess it's still a huge risk for some clubs, especially if other states follow suit.

https://www1.wdr.de/sport/fussball/erste-bundesliga/ungeimpfte-profis-spielverbot-nrw-100.html

I have little sympathy for unvaccinated players, but let's be real: they work in a business where everyone is low risk and that has a vaccination rate much higher than the age 60+ population even. It seems entirely transparent populism to go after the black sheep in football with this much publicity, while shit is actually hitting the fan in so many other areas. But now that Kimmich and his fellow "sceptics" have become a favourite outlet for the deflections of our politicians I wonder what else they will come up with if they can't outright ban them from playing. With the threat of empty stadiums they have a ton of leverage on the clubs.
 

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The state of NRW just issued a new corona measure that allows stadiums to remain at their current capacity (100% for seats, 50% for standing areas) and that forbids people who fall outside of the 2G rule from doing sports, including professionals. However for the time being, as a transitional period, they have granted professional athletes the exception that they can get around it with a negative PCR test and the article also features a professor, who thinks it would be difficult to get this past labor law, considering footballers already follow a rigorous testing schedule and have a very high vaccination rate.
But I guess it's still a huge risk for some clubs, especially if other states follow suit.

https://www1.wdr.de/sport/fussball/erste-bundesliga/ungeimpfte-profis-spielverbot-nrw-100.html

I have little sympathy for unvaccinated players, but let's be real: they work in a business where everyone is low risk and that has a vaccination rate much higher than the age 60+ population even. It seems entirely transparent populism to go after the black sheep in football with this much publicity, while shit is actually hitting the fan in so many other areas. But now that Kimmich and his fellow "sceptics" have become a favourite outlet for the deflections of our politicians I wonder what else they will come up with if they can't outright ban them from playing. With the threat of empty stadiums they have a ton of leverage on the clubs.
I don't know what the actual argument is of course, but maybe the example function plays a role? Both to remove from the conversation public figures that are anti-vaxxers and might influence people, and to show that no-one is above public health needs.
 

Hansi Fick

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I don't know what the actual argument is of course, but maybe the example function plays a role? Both to remove from the conversation public figures that are anti-vaxxers and might influence people, and to show that no-one is above public health needs.
But that's the wrong reasoning. feck example function, football doesn't need to be educational, it needs to be entertaining. Imagine having to go into another lock down with no football to watch. The mood is already at rock bottom in this country.
 

do.ob

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I don't know what the actual argument is of course, but maybe the example function plays a role? Both to remove from the conversation public figures that are anti-vaxxers and might influence people, and to show that no-one is above public health needs.
But aside from Kimmich and Weghorst it's not like anyone of them has been doing active anti vaccination propaganda. I guess they could screw them a bit when they have away games in Bielefeld, Bochum, Cologne, Dortmund or Gladbach, but really it would be up to the state of Bayern to do that with Kimmich and Lower Saxony for Weghorst, by messing with all their home games instead of maybe an away game or two in the winter. Though on the other hand if they drop their exception in time for Bayern's visit to Dortmund they would certainly send a message.

I think if it was about legitimate concerns, then they would do what they think is right and safe the headlines for the pressing issues. I mean we have heads of (federal) states talking about making vaccinations mandatory for footballers at the same time that Austria has already sent their unvaccinated into lockdown and made vaccinations mandatory for everyone. Especially the CDU/CSU politicians are probably only trying to pile on to the Kimmich headlines until the Merkel government leaves office and they can start to blame the new one.

But that's the wrong reasoning. feck example function, football doesn't need to be educational, it needs to be entertaining. Imagine having to go into another lock down with no football to watch. The mood is already at rock bottom in this country.
I don't think they want to come after football clubs in general, that much seems obvious by the fact that the about dozen 1st/2nd division clubs in NRW can still run their stadium at full seating capacity, which probably has far more severe consequences than any unvaccinated professional athlete in the state. Some clubs barely survived the last break or set of behind closed door games. I don't think the politicians are in any rush to be the ones who have signed the death warrant of for example Schalke.
 
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Cheimoon

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But aside from Kimmich and Weghorst it's not like anyone of them has been doing active anti vaccination propaganda. I guess they could screw them a bit when they have away games in Bielefeld, Bochum, Cologne, Dortmund or Gladbach, but really it would be up to the state of Bayern to do that with Kimmich and Lower Saxony for Weghorst, by messing with all their home games instead of maybe an away game or two in the winter. Though on the other hand if they drop their exception in time for Bayern's visit to Dortmund they would certainly send a message.

I think if it was about legitimate concerns, then they would do what they think is right and safe the headlines for the pressing issues. I mean we have heads of (federal) states talking about making vaccinations mandatory for footballers at the same time that Austria has already sent their unvaccinated into lockdown and made vaccinations mandatory for everyone. Especially the CDU/CSU politicians are probably only trying to pile on to the Kimmich headlines until the Merkel government leaves office and they can start to blame the new one.
I didn't mean them being outspoken antivaxxers, just that the existence of public figures who don't take the vaccine and manage to make things work for themselves that way might not be helpful for the vaccination campaign.

Anyway, I don't want to make a big point out of this, I was just theorizing.
 

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Looks like Gnabry and Musiala have now joined the ranks of the vaccinated and that Kimmich and Cuisance are at least considering it.
Apparently the DFB/DFL had sent out a memo at the start of the season, strongly suggesting that unvaccinated players should wait for the winter break if they want to get their shots. That was part of the problem.
 

do.ob

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Looks like Gnabry and Musiala have now joined the ranks of the vaccinated and that Kimmich and Cuisance are at least considering it.
Apparently the DFB/DFL had sent out a memo at the start of the season, strongly suggesting that unvaccinated players should wait for the winter break if they want to get their shots. That was part of the problem.
Kicker released a longer article on it. It reads like especially Musiala's thought process was quite reasonable, because when clubs were vaccinating their players during pre season he was barely 18 and by the time authorities recommended vaccinating younger people the DFL memo you mentioned came into effect.
They also state that Gnabry will have vaccinated status in two weeks time, because of a prior infection, while Musiala will have to wait for the winter break for his second shot. So Bayern can hope to get at least one of the players out of their quarantine loop.


https://www.kicker.de/exklusiv-zwei-aus-dem-bayern-quintett-bereits-geimpft-879845/artikel#twshare
 

GhastlyHun

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Another twist to our Corona tales: Choupo (still unvaccinated per last information leaks) has tested positive.
I hope for his sake that he gets off with a light illness.
 

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Haven't both of Malen's goals been without Haaland now?
I don't think it's a coincidence, while he did score at PSV in a 2 striker system, I always thought he was better as the main man.
Dortmund in essence sold Sancho and bought a Haaland replacement.
 

do.ob

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Haven't both of Malen's goals been without Haaland now?
I don't think it's a coincidence, while he did score at PSV in a 2 striker system, I always thought he was better as the main man.
Dortmund in essence sold Sancho and bought a Haaland replacement.
Malen is obviously a different type of player than Sancho. But I don't see how his problems would be connected to Haaland. He arrived with a fitness deficit, he's been struggling to adapt to his new environment, Dortmund's attack as a whole is dysfunctional at the moment and can't carry him through his issues at the moment.
 

VanDeBank

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Malen is obviously a different type of player than Sancho. But I don't see how his problems would be connected to Haaland. He arrived with a fitness deficit, he's been struggling to adapt to his new environment, Dortmund's attack as a whole is dysfunctional at the moment and can't carry him through his issues at the moment.
He's been played out of his position. His best position is up top as the main man. I've seen him played on the wing where he's always been shit, including for PSV and Holland and in a 2 striker system where he's supposed to do his best Memphis impression.
 

do.ob

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He's been played out of his position. His best position is up top as the main man. I've seen him played on the wing where he's always been shit, including for PSV and Holland and in a 2 striker system where he's supposed to do his best Memphis impression.
But Haaland has been injured for a while now and Malen's performances haven't really improved a lot since, even though one would have hoped he'd settle in better over time in general.
 

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Bayerns general assembly even a bigger banger than usual :lol:
Fantastic material for the upcoming days.
 

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Stuff like this. The whole thing is on YouTube, the ending was hilarious. Surprised their board didn't have a thicker skin, they shouldn't have been surprised by this development :lol:
 

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Stuff like this. The whole thing is on YouTube, the ending was hilarious. Surprised their board didn't have a thicker skin, they shouldn't have been surprised by this development :lol:
Lovely bit of metadiscussion. Did the Herr Prof. Dr. indeed end up giving an actual answer in the end?
 

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Dear Bayernfans , your thoughts on the Annual General Meeting ( Jahreshauptversammlung ) ? :D
 

Hansi Fick

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Dear Bayernfans , your thoughts on the Annual General Meeting ( Jahreshauptversammlung ) ? :D
Good stuff. Our members are reliably engaged, consistent, fearless, outspoken and politically sound model citizens. And they actually managed to shut up Uli Hoeness, that has never happened before.
 

do.ob

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Stuff like this. The whole thing is on YouTube, the ending was hilarious. Surprised their board didn't have a thicker skin, they shouldn't have been surprised by this development :lol:
Maybe it's just me, but I got the strongest Larry David vibes from that clip. :drool:
 

B. Munich

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This guy, Martin Ott, is making a lot of noise since weeks. I doubt he knows the contractual details of the deal with Qatar.

I also don't know, if he is just attention or genuinely cares about the human right situation there. If the latter, he should probably better about joining a NGO, which fights human rights abusers and not a professional football club.

I'm no fan of Qatar or Saudi Arabia and don't defend their abuses. However, were should the line be drawn? What's next? No sponsorship from US companies because of Guantanamo? What about the deal with Audi and adidas? Both companies are heavily engaged in China, which is well known for its human rights violations.

I am also all for fans fighting violence and racism. That's where fans can be active and voice there support.
 

Hansi Fick

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This guy, Martin Ott, is making a lot of noise since weeks. I doubt he knows the contractual details of the deal with Qatar.

I also don't know, if he is just attention or genuinely cares about the human right situation there. If the latter, he should probably better about joining a NGO, which fights human rights abusers and not a professional football club.

I'm no fan of Qatar or Saudi Arabia and don't defend their abuses. However, were should the line be drawn? What's next? No sponsorship from US companies because of Guantanamo? What about the deal with Audi and adidas? Both companies are heavily engaged in China, which is well known for its human rights violations.

I am also all for fans fighting violence and racism. That's where fans can be active and voice there support.
That's such a weak, cowardly stance.

Where fans can be active is when they are literally members of their clubs and can literally, actually influence the debate and decision-making on what kind of deals the club makes and where the money is coming from, like yesterday.

The club line how "dialogue and economic exchange" is what will bring positive change in terms of human rights is such tired, old, laughable, apologetic, deflective messaging that noone believed even when it was coined decades ago, probably on some Kanzler Schröder trip to China where Windhorst was tagging along.
The fans wouldn't be half as militant if the club would somehow try to prove in what way they're actually trying to tie the contract, the "economic exchange", to a push for positive development, or if the club would actually be ready to discuss the issue.

The speakers are right, it becomes exactly laughable when the club says "dialogue is better than boycott" if they're boycotting the calls to incorporate the discussion into the JHV.
 

do.ob

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This guy, Martin Ott, is making a lot of noise since weeks. I doubt he knows the contractual details of the deal with Qatar.

I also don't know, if he is just attention or genuinely cares about the human right situation there. If the latter, he should probably better about joining a NGO, which fights human rights abusers and not a professional football club.

I'm no fan of Qatar or Saudi Arabia and don't defend their abuses. However, were should the line be drawn? What's next? No sponsorship from US companies because of Guantanamo? What about the deal with Audi and adidas? Both companies are heavily engaged in China, which is well known for its human rights violations.

I am also all for fans fighting violence and racism. That's where fans can be active and voice there support.
A healthy dose of whataboutism..

I don't know if it's always been coming from Mr. Ott, but this has been an issue for years, not weeks, and as far as I can tell not, because these people are attention seeking, but because Bayern's leadership are trying to avoid the issue and silence criticism via stadium bans. And besides: it's ridiculous to argue that these fans are wasting their efforts, when it's Qatar themselves, who deem Bayern an important enough vehicle to spend millions on these sponsorship deals, or you know.. just buy a whole football club themselves.

edit:
here's a small write up:
 
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B. Munich

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That's such a weak, cowardly stance.
I don't see how my view can been seen is cowardly. I just don't think football clubs should get politicized. I wonder how many others clubs have some sponsorship deals with more or less questionable parties. It's just because it's Bayern it gets headlines in the press. Little bit like Kimmich and his reluctance to get vaccinated.




Where fans can be active is when they are literally members of their clubs and can literally, actually influence the debate and decision-making on what kind of deals the club makes and where the money is coming from, like yesterday.
I watched some parts of yesterday's Jahreshauptversammlung. Honestly I don't think that many of the present members were really looking into an open discussion about this topic. The atmosphere was very aggressive. I'm ashamed how Hainer was insulted and Hoeneß even couldn't speak.

Living in the Philippines im far away and don't follow all the politics around the chub. I remember during the reign of Pep Bayern been criticized for going to Qatar during the winter break. But that's it
So I'm not aware of details.
I only know that it isn't the first time the Bayern ultras are causing an uproar at the Jahreshauptversammlung. When I was a student I watched hundreds of games live and the last thing I wanted to get close to these hardcore fans. Whether from Bayern or opposition clubs.
My experiences are from the 80s to early 90s only, so things might have changed but during these times ultras were the last people I would like to discuss such complex topics.
Just my view of the things.

I worked in UAE, Kuwait and Qatar as a consultant and frankly I never liked these Muslim countries. They aren't democracies but I wouldn't single out Qatar as particularly evil. Didn't the HSV had Emirates as their tricot sponsor?

So surely the topic can be discussed, but in a civilized manner and I doubt that the Jahreshauptversammlung is the right environment for such a discussion
 

B. Munich

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A healthy dose of whataboutism..

I don't know if it's always been coming from Mr. Ott, but this has been an issue for years, not weeks, and as far as I can tell not, because these people are attention seeking, but because Bayern's leadership are trying to avoid the issue and silen criticism via stadium bans. And besides: it's ridiculous to argue that these fans are wasting their efforts, when it's Qatar themselves, who deem Bayern an important enough vehicle to spend millions on these sponsorship deals, or you know.. just buy a whole football club themselves.

edit:
here's a small write up:
They criticize Qatar for violating the rights of the LGBT community. These are the same fans who then chant about the opposition goal keeper or referee "Schwule Sau".
Also this isn't a particular problem of Qatar but almost every Muslim country. So they should actually ban any deals with Muslim countries. What about Turkish airways? Are they any better?

Again the world is as it is. Football for me is entertainment and fun. Politics should be kept out. If I want to be active to support human rights then I join amnesty international but not a football club.
Just my 2 cents about this topic. You guys are free to disagree.
 

Kasper

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They criticize Qatar for violating the rights of the LGBT community. These are the same fans who then chant about the opposition goal keeper or referee "Schwule Sau".
Also this isn't a particular problem of Qatar but almost every Muslim country. So they should actually ban any deals with Muslim countries. What about Turkish airways? Are they any better?

Again the world is as it is. Football for me is entertainment and fun. Politics should be kept out. If I want to be active to support human rights then I join amnesty international but not a football club.
Just my 2 cents about this topic. You guys are free to disagree.
Oh dear, you seem to have no clue about the topic whatsoever. Bayern Ultras are actually known to often show rainbow flags, they definitely don't chant homophobic chants. Your random boomer customer would do that but not the guys that where putting forward the motions.
Ott actually explained his reasons behind the motions in interviews and goes into detail why exactly the Qatar sponsorship is different than your average Audi or adidas sponsorship but I doubt thats stopping you from throwing out your whataboutery. It's all about entertainment and fun eh - might as well revive the Colosseum.
 

do.ob

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Oh dear, you seem to have no clue about the topic whatsoever. Bayern Ultras are actually known to often show rainbow flags, they definitely don't chant homophobic chants. Your random boomer customer would do that but not the guys that where putting forward the motions.
Ott actually explained his reasons behind the motions in interviews and goes into detail why exactly the Qatar sponsorship is different than your average Audi or adidas sponsorship but I doubt thats stopping you from throwing out your whataboutery. It's all about entertainment and fun eh - might as well revive the Colosseum.
I have to agree here: it's taking whataboutism to new levels to try and silence Bayern's ultras via accusations of homophobia.

Here's a statement from them on the matter: https://schickeria-muenchen.org/pico/fanpolitik/ultras_gegen_rassismus/gegen_sexismus_und_homophobie

There's also an article from 2016 (as far as I know that's two years before the Qatar deal) that states:
"The Schickeria polarizes within the German ultra scene as well. Wheras for some they the ones who bring "too much politics into the stadium", because they position themselves against homophobia and racism, others value them for precisely that."

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenche...ie-schickeria-bis-heute-polarisiert-1.3299888
 

B. Munich

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Oh dear, you seem to have no clue about the topic whatsoever. Bayern Ultras are actually known to often show rainbow flags, they definitely don't chant homophobic chants. Your random boomer customer would do that but not the guys that where putting forward the motions.
Ott actually explained his reasons behind the motions in interviews and goes into detail why exactly the Qatar sponsorship is different than your average Audi or adidas sponsorship but I doubt thats stopping you from throwing out your whataboutery. It's all about entertainment and fun eh - might as well revive the Colosseum.
I left Germany in 1994 so yes I'm not an expert what's going on in the fan organizations.
However, i worked in over 20 countries over the last 25 years. While I'm no fan of the Middle East nor enjoy working in Muslim countries, i worked in worse places than Qatar. Also these members are mixing things up.Islam doesn't tolerate LGBT community its not Qatar alone. Even more moderate Muslim countries like Malaysia don't tolerate this.

You also didn't got my point about the Adidas and Audi sponsorship. I didn't say they are the same but rather asked where you gonna draw the line. If Qatar deals are banned, the next member will challenge the deals with Adidas and Audi.

I'm sure as an opposition fan you are enjoying the chaos at Bayern.
And yes football should be about sport, fun and banter.
The world is serious enough and there are many organizations these guys can join if they are serious about this issue.