Gio VS Joga Bonito - NT Peak draft

[Gio]

Dzajic is his secondary goalscoring threat and Vogts in the ideal RCB to deal with that incarnation of Dzajic (just as Burgnich did a good job at nullifying the roaming Dzajic in the 1968 final, though you can't really fault Dzajic as he had to play 2 games in 5 days or something). It's going to be relatively harder for Gio's offense to breach my defense whilst I can see my forwards having some joy against Buchwald and Gamarra here.

You're playing down Dzajic to the extreme here - his Euro credentials are as good as any player (both in '68 and '76) and of all the attackers on the pitch its only Zidane who probably edges it in terms of tournament impact.

Dzajic was unquestionably the tournament's best player in 1968 in a way that even Rummenigge wasn't, scoring in both the semi-final and the final as the star of an otherwise unimpressive Yugoslavia side against the current World Cup winners England (with the likes of Bobby Moore and Gordan Banks in defence) and a fantastic Italian team which would go on to win the Euro's and then reach the final of the World Cup two years late (with the likes of Facchetti, Burgnich and Zoff at the back).

When Yugoslavia qualified in 1976 Dzajic despite being past his peak went on to score in both matches which were again against top tier opposition - the semi-final against the current World Champions Germany (stacked with talent inc Vogts and Beckenbauer) as well as the Third Place playoff against the Dutch (captained by Ruud Krol). His Euro credentials are completely beyond question - in the five games that Dzajic played he scored in four of them.

And those goals were scored whilst playing for an inferior team against some of the best defenders in history - including Facchetti and Vogts from your own backline. And just taking the latter in particular, I can't see how you can say Vogts is ideal for dealing with Dzajic given that he famously struggled against him in the 1976 semi-final.

It's abundantly clear from the calibre of defenders listed that Dzajic can score aganst any defence - And that's without taking into account the significantly better supporting cast Dzajic now has to work with, which is on a completely different level to the Yugoslav sides of the late 60's early 70's.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 Funnily enough Leonidas was rested for the semi-final.

Cheers. I found it as a "managers decision" on couple of sources, but with the political atmosphere at the time you can always wonder. Pity he didn't participate.

Indeed, he was magnificent in that tournament but let's not forget that it's doesn't necessarily take a man-marking job or a immense individual performance by a DM* to nullify a top notch #10, as Italy so aptly demonstrated in the 2000 Euros final, with their midfield working their bollocks off against France and nullifying Zidane indirectly. With Falcao and Voronin, ably being supported by Sir Bobby Charlton, Zidane definitely won't be having it easy here.

*And if you need a monstrous performance from a DM, look no further than Voronin who nullified the likes of Florian Albert and Eusebio in that World Cup, the most in-form forwards of that World Cup. Resulting in him being ranked as the 4th best player of the WC by a referendum organised by L'Equipe and France Football, winning the Soviet Union Footballer of the Year (check out the OP for more info)

Do watch these displays if you haven't done so already. Cheers.

Spoiler

Great all-round display against Germany


Man-marking Eusebio out of the game


Nullifying Florian Albert

That's excellent stuff Joga, will go through it. Not saying Zidane would have it easy here, far from it as you have 3 great midfielders on the pitch, but his form at the time was really great and a key piece in Gio's team.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Will have a look if I get the chance. Obviously I'm aware of Dzajic's goal which came from his area.

It did, but if you watched the match you'd realise it wasn't his fault but rather the LCB.

Spoiler

You're playing down Dzajic to the extreme here - his Euro credentials are as good as any player (both in '68 and '76) and of all the attackers on the pitch its only Zidane who probably edges it in terms of tournament impact.

I'm sorry but there's no way Dzajic had a better tournament than Sir Bobby Charlton here and I'd say Sir Bobby Charlton and Zidane are on equal grounds here in terms of their performances.

Dzajic was unquestionably the tournament's best player in 1968 in a way that even Rummenigge wasn't, scoring in both the semi-final and the final as the star of an otherwise unimpressive Yugoslavia side against the current World Cup winners England (with the likes of Bobby Moore and Gordan Banks in defence) and a fantastic Italian team which would go on to win the Euro's and then reach the final of the World Cup two years late (with the likes of Facchetti, Burgnich and Zoff at the back).

Tbf, Dzajic had a great tournament and no one is disputing that.

When Yugoslavia qualified in 1976 Dzajic despite being past his peak went on to score in both matches which were again against top tier opposition - the semi-final against the current World Champions Germany (stacked with talent inc Vogts and Beckenbauer) as well as the Third Place playoff against the Dutch (captained by Ruud Krol). His Euro credentials are completely beyond question - in the five games that Dzajic played he scored in four of them.

Irrelevant given how only one tournament is relevant here. Dzajic in the 1968 incarnation was quite clearly a roaming inside forward of sorts and there aren't many FBs who'd I have above Vogts to mark a roaming inside forward (as he nullified Cruyff in the 1974 WC).

I can't agree at all that Vogts is ideal to deal with Dzajic given that he famously struggled to contain him when they met in the '76 Semi.

Irrelevant, given that isn't the incarnation that you are using here and with obvious reason too, given how you have R.Carlos amongst your ranks and that Dzajic wasn't the peak version to put it mildly.

Here is the incarnation of Dzajic that you are using btw, being nullified by Burgnich.

Spoiler: Dzajic in the replay of the final

Some nice touches here and there but ultimately didn't amount to much. Not so much as to the quality of his performance but rather his playing style which is the most criticial part. Very much in Vogts alley imo.

As it stands, your prime goalscoring threats of Leonidas and Dzajic are fairly well marshalled here imo, with Baresi-Forster being a great duo against Leonidas and Dzajic being looked after by one Berti Vogts. Not that my attack is going to find it easy against the likes of Gamarra-Buchwald-Sammer but relatively speaking, I'd back my attack to have more joy in this match-up.

 

[Gio]

I'm sorry but there's no way Dzajic had a better tournament than Sir Bobby Charlton here.

Sorry, disagree. I thought Charlton was very good in 1966, but I'm surprised he got the retrospective Golden Ball because Eusebio was such an electric one-man band for Portugal and I actually thought Bobby Moore was England's classiest performer. Whereas there is no doubt over the top performer from Euro '68.

Some nice touches here and there but ultimately didn't amount to much.

Let's not ignore the context. It was Yugoslavia's third game in five days and they didn't have the luxury or depth of rotating half their team like Italy did from the final two days earlier. They were also aggrieved at various refereeing decisions in the first game - the tournament was held in Italy after all. And many of the Yugoslavia team were carrying knocks from the kicking they literally got from England in the semi-final (see the Mullery challenge as an example). And really most of that was directed at Dzajic.

Despite all that he still manged to either score or assist 6 of the 8 goals Yugoslavia scored en route v France, England and Italy (that's 75% of all their goals) - including ghosting in behind Moore to net a late winner against England, and scoring against that famous Burgnich and Facchetti-led Italy rearguard in the final.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Sorry, disagree. I thought Charlton was very good in 1966, but I'm surprised he got the retrospective Golden Ball because Eusebio was such an electric one-man band for Portugal and I actually thought Bobby Moore was England's classiest performer. Whereas there is no doubt over the top performer from Euro '68.

Eusebio was brilliant and there was nothing between the two of them but this is probably the first time I've heard someone express surprise over Charlton winning the Golden Ball in that WC.

Let's not ignore the context. It was Yugoslavia's third game in five days and they didn't have the luxury or depth of rotating half their team like Italy did from the final two days earlier. They were also aggrieved at various refereeing decisions in the first game - the tournament was held in Italy after all. And many of the Yugoslavia team were carrying knocks from the kicking they literally got from England in the semi-final (see the Mullery challenge as an example). And really most of that was directed at Dzajic.

Of course, but let's not forget that Italy themselves had to play 3 games in 5 days and had just come off a tough game against the Soviet Union which went on till the extra time. And whilst Dzajic didn't have the luxury of rotation, as too did Burgnich or Facchetti for instance. Naturally being rugged and mentally tough defenders they were better able to adapt to the replay but Dzajic wasn't the only one who didn't have the luxury of rotation in that match-up. Or Domeneghini who was a regular feature for Italy throughout the tournament and was pretty much excellent in the replay if memory serves me right, making the TOTM.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Reassuringly high I would say - the word 'rampage' seems to crop up all the time. We could have gone with 1998 - when FIFA said that "Zanetti was notable for his physical ability and surprising and effective forward surges in a 3-4-3" - but 2004 was undoubtedly his best tournament. You'll have seen the World Soccer praise from 2004:

And that wasn't just some generic praise - it was part of some section naming it's 3 stars of the competition. Elsewhere it also included some specifics around "his rampaging down the flank against Peru".

Or even the Guardian's summary of the tournament:


He was also named in a team of the tournament.

A few short clips to get a feel for his role:

Spoiler: Zanetti at the 2004 Copa

Admittedly he has had a slightly weird international career, getting dropped for a couple of tournaments by lunatic managers, yet at the same time still piling up 145 caps. But there's no question over the calibre of his performances in 2004.

Importantly he fits well: it's not easy to find two greater flank dominators in a 3-5-2 than Carlos and Zanetti.

Thanks for the reply mate, helped a lot!

 

[Moby]

Two incredible teams, with a lot to talk about and well set up to counter a lot of the opposition strengths as well. I absolutely love that Zona Mista by Joga, which is quite innovative yet feels really natural. I was about to refrain from voting in this one but I went for Gio for the slightest of margins, I think this game will be an incredibly tight one where both teams battle really strongly but due to both the defensive setups I don't see a lot of goals in here, and I see the 2000 Zidane as someone who could break such a deadlock with an individual effort. It was mental how late he was picked and Gio really struck gold there as he fits well in his formation. Voronin looks well set to take on even that version of Zizou for most of the game however I feel that he will find a couple of instances where he breaks through and sets up something special, a bit similar to his 2002 CL final strike where the game seemed to be heading for a draw and he just decided it with a moment of sheer brilliance.

 

[Annahnomoss]

It should be clear when we played back 3 under LvG. A 3-5-2 doesn't work as well with the same players who were much better in 4-3-3. I agree, that playing a Side Back requires something more specialize than just a CB stepping out.

For me that is clear as well. The best RCB&LCB's in history has to be the players who made that role their own and they should be rated a fair bit above random greats who are shifted in to the position. Behind that you ideally want a RCB/LCB who possessed some spectacular one vs one game and had a lot of acceleration and pace to deal with an incoming winger, for me that's someone like Vierchowod who albeit not playing wide often had the tools to be "good for a CB" there. That is not Gamarra in my mind, he was ideal for a back four or the central defender in a back 5 as he could dominate the area from there.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I like Careca and when I was younger thought he was the dog's bollocks. But to be a little bit harsh but fair, he's nothing exceptional in this elevated company. There's a load of mobile no9s in his bracket in this draft.

Certainly Leonidas is the top Brazilian striker on the park in terms of World Cup performances. 7 goals in 4 games was exceptional stuff, even for the time. And more than that he was the first Brazilian striking superstar to reach a global audience whose impact stretches far beyond what Careca was able to do half a century later.

For me he is but he always fascinated me. I don't think he will be able to be quite be so clinical here when he has to roam out wide as well and play against a packed defense without half the support he had for Brazil. For Brazil he was the centre of attention for the other four attacking players which would make it easier for the team to score in general, and he could focus on that. Don't get me wrong, he would be awesome in this role and it would push his game even further overall to have so much of the ball but it would negate the scoring a bit. He'd still be clinical when he got the chance and his shot was great so he'd be on the goalsheet most likely.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

For me that is clear as well. The best RCB&LCB's in history has to be the players who made that role their own and they should be rated a fair bit above random greats who are shifted in to the position. Behind that you ideally want a RCB/LCB who possessed some spectacular one vs one game and had a lot of acceleration and pace to deal with an incoming winger, for me that's someone like Vierchowod who albeit not playing wide often had the tools to be "good for a CB" there. That is not Gamarra in my mind, he was ideal for a back four or the central defender in a back 5 as he could dominate the area from there.

I don't see this at all.

I think Chelsea's 3-4-3 for just one example dispels this idea.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't see this. I think Chelsea's 3-4-3 for example dispels this idea.

Like we said, one of those questions that splits opinions!

 

[Moby]

I don't see this at all.

I think Chelsea's 3-4-3 for just one example dispels this idea.

Tbh, Cahill doesn't look very good there, on the other hand Azpi looks very natural, as he has experience of playing fullback which I think makes someone fit in such a role easily.

Might be interesting to go through different back fives for this.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Tbh, Cahill doesn't look very good there, on the other hand Azpi looks very natural, as he has experience of playing fullback which I think makes someone fit in such a role easily.

Might be interesting to go through different back fives for this.

But did Cahill look better in a four at the back? Last year or this year before the switch, I'd say no, not really. So maybe that is more just Cahill's decline c.2017 than the tactic.

It would be interesting to go through some historic back-5 though and see how some performed both in and out of the system.

 

[Theon]

I don't see this. I think Chelsea's 3-4-3 for example dispels this idea.

The Garmarra stuff is particularly strange when Gio has gone to lengths to show that Paraguay played in a 3-5-2 and that Garmarra played as one of the side centre backs.

I don't see the basis of the criciticism.

 

[Annahnomoss]

The Garmarra stuff is particularly strange when Gio has gone to lengths to show that Paraguay played in a 3-5-2 and that Garmarra played as one of the side centre backs.

I don't see the basis of the criciticism.

Had missed that myself, just read up on it, cheers for bringing it up again. Lost out on that one before.

 

[Moby]

But did Cahill look better in a four at the back? Last year or this year before the switch, I'd say no, not really. So maybe that is more just Cahill's decline c.2017 than the tactic.

It would be interesting to go through some historic back-5 though and see how some performed both in and out of the system.

Yeah Cahill probably falls under just being a poor defender. He was good under Mourinho though I think but always looked very protected. Which is probably another aspect as you'd want defenders good in 1v1s (Cahill is cancer in that regard) to go out wide and deal with tricky wingers etc.

 

[Annahnomoss]

One of my favorite draft games ever. Both teams have fresh ideas that are perfectly executed and even if the formations are standard there is something original about the chosen players. Leonidas and Dzajic in these roles are golden, it was about time that Leonidas got to play that role and I've been close a lot of times myself but never quite dared. Then Joga with his decision to not only nullify Gio's world class Carlos/Dzajic flank with Conti and Vogts - but also take over the area and dominate it with a third player in Rummenigge also using that space. So Carlos has to move forward and help Dzajic against a superb Conti/Vogts duo, but he also has Rummenigge ready to pounce in the vast space that opens up behind him.

On the other side we have Charlton against Matthäus and Facchetti against Zanetti and Zidane would sooner or later be able to get on the ball even with one of the defensively best holding midfielders operating there. When Charlton is attacking there is quite a scary Matthäus there who would burst forward at every chance he got.

 

[Moby]

Facchetti against Zanetti

There's a Japanese movie script somewhere in there, Student vs Sensei!

 

[Annahnomoss]

There's a Japanese movie script somewhere in there, Student vs Sensei!

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Joga Bonito Could you clarify your defensive set up in regards to what role Charlton has here when you are defending.

 

[Enigma_87]

Two incredible teams, with a lot to talk about and well set up to counter a lot of the opposition strengths as well. I absolutely love that Zona Mista by Joga, which is quite innovative yet feels really natural. I was about to refrain from voting in this one but I went for Gio for the slightest of margins, I think this game will be an incredibly tight one where both teams battle really strongly but due to both the defensive setups I don't see a lot of goals in here, and I see the 2000 Zidane as someone who could break such a deadlock with an individual effort. It was mental how late he was picked and Gio really struck gold there as he fits well in his formation. Voronin looks well set to take on even that version of Zizou for most of the game however I feel that he will find a couple of instances where he breaks through and sets up something special, a bit similar to his 2002 CL final strike where the game seemed to be heading for a draw and he just decided it with a moment of sheer brilliance.

Yeah feel the same and my thoughts exactly. Thought of refraining myself but went with Gio so far with the slightest of margins. Voronin in that form would be a good match For Zizou but with also Matthaus in the picture would probably just edge it in that midfield battle.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good game @Gio . Unfortunateley, wasn't able to to contribute much as I was swamped. Good luck going forward mate, great core you got going there.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hard game. Unfortunate for Joga.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah, can't wait to see Conti having a real class tournament on here.

 

[Ecstatic]

Joga and Gio were part of the top 5 teams of the draft.

I've changed my mind 21 times about his game.

Joga: Great job despite the outcome

 

[Ecstatic]

All-Time Draft: I would have voted for Joga
International peak draft: I've voted for Gio (& Theon ) whose players reached their peak in a relatively similar scheme.

 

[Raees]

Didn't vote because I couldn't separate the sides - sad to see one of you guys go out!

 

[Annahnomoss]

All-Time Draft: I would have voted for Joga
International peak draft: I've voted for Gio (& Theon ) whose players reached their peak in a relatively similar scheme.

I went with Joga but I guess it is because I'm sold on Voronin and want Conti to finally get a good run, so I can see why I rate them higher than others. Conti is such an underrated player but to me one of the best "wingers" of all time. The entire right flank was his and he'd stomp down his authority defending and going forward.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Didn't vote because I couldn't separate the sides - sad to see one of you guys go out!

The amount of strong sides going out is a bit scary. Skizzo/Onenil were two of the opponents I'd prefer to avoid facing myself and they went out to a classy Enigma side and as always a charmingly crazy EAP team.

 

[Raees]

The amount of strong sides going out is a bit scary. Skizzo/Onenil were two of the opponents I'd prefer to avoid facing myself and they went out to a classy Enigma side and as always a charmingly crazy EAP team.

You'd expect it with that quality of drafters and the pool available but still amazing to see the themes of some these sides.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You'd expect it with that quality of drafters and the pool available but still amazing to see the themes of some these sides.

Yup. Been lovely to get to read all the OP's so far.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Didn't vote because I couldn't separate the sides - sad to see one of you guys go out!

Aye, I decided to think it over some more and ended up missing the deadline. Two absolutely superb teams, and excellent debate from both Gio and Joga. With a gun to my head I'd have opted for Gio by a fraction. Sammer in his Euro 96 form and WC 90 Matthaus are huge picks, but ultimately for me it might have come down to something as miniscule as Schmeichel's flawless tournament vs Schumacher's otherwise great tournament being undermined by his performance in the final.

 

[Raees]

shame Careca never played in the 82 world cup. I knew nothing about him tbh, but after coming across these vids.. woah. Beast of a CF.

 

[Gio]

Good game @Gio . Unfortunateley, wasn't able to to contribute much as I was swamped. Good luck going forward mate, great core you got going there.

Pity that as it was shaping to be a bit of an epic on the first night, and admittedly you were one of the teams we wanted to avoid.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Pity that as it was shaping to be a bit of an epic on the first night, and admittedly you were one of the teams we wanted to avoid.

Yeah it started so good.

 

[harms]

What a match up! Got an alert from Gio somehow, he probably edited it out later (came back to 10 alerts and 5 conversations )
Lots of my favorites in both sides, it would've been incredibly hard to decide a winner if I'd got here in time.

 

[Annahnomoss]

What a match up! Got an alert from Gio somehow, he probably edited it out later (came back to 10 alerts and 5 conversations )
Lots of my favorites in both sides, it would've been incredibly hard to decide a winner if I'd got here in time.

Two damn near perfect sides. Just down to which players you rate more. Love Leonidas and Dzajiic but the story of Voronin got my vote in the end and the fact that I think Conti rarely gets a good enough credit. Especially in this exact role.