I wouldn't argue about Pep he was a decent player but Zidane? Hes top 10 ever for me . Unbelievable talent
GOAT Player and Manager combined
- Thread starter Sparky Rhiwabon
- Start date
Hes an all time great big game player but he would be crucified today if he were judged on his inconsistent league performances.
I disagree he was brilliant in his time at Juventus I cant really speak about him at Madrid though
For me the best ones would be Beckenbauer and Zidane although the consensus seems to be Cruyff, which is fair enough but they sure have to be top 3 over the likes of someone like Guardiola.
That being said Zidane is still active and I'm sure he's bound to be France manager at some point, which will put him in a good position to win some major trophies with them.
That being said Zidane is still active and I'm sure he's bound to be France manager at some point, which will put him in a good position to win some major trophies with them.
Agreed Zidane was brilliant at times but lots of games tended to pass him by when I watched him
Zidane at Juventus.
One of my favourite players of all time. I'm glad that he existed in a time where every move, pass, game or season is scrutinised to an unbelievable depth like it is today. We love to simultaneously hype players up and yet de-mystify them. There's something magical about players like Zidane that we seem to want to take away these days.
Cruyff for me. Brilliantly inspirational and innovative, both as a player and manager, taking his teams (Ajax, Holland, Barcelona) to new levels of excellence.
Great post and i totally agree . I lived in Italy for quite a few years and was lucky to have Zidane and Zlatan playing. Both incredible players but Zidane was an artist at work he was specialZidane at Juventus.
One of my favourite players of all time. I'm glad that he existed in a time where every move, pass, game or season is scrutinised to an unbelievable depth like it is today. We love to simultaneously hype players up and yet de-mystify them. There's something magical about players like Zidane that we seem to want to take away these days.
Zidane was excellent, and this ridiculous myth of him being "inconsistent" has to go.
People are like he is some kind of Ben Arfa who performed well in big games.
People are like he is some kind of Ben Arfa who performed well in big games.
My top five would be:
1. Cruyff
2. Zidane
3. Beckenbauer
4. Dalglish
5. Heynckes
1. Cruyff
2. Zidane
3. Beckenbauer
4. Dalglish
5. Heynckes
Surley Cruyff. Zidane's just a mediator of talented players IMO. His manageral skills haven't really been tested despite winning 4 CL
Cruyff and Beckenbauer.
/thread
/thread
Cruyff stands out on his own, not just because of his achievements, but also because he was a genuine visionary, both as a player and a manager. Arguably no single person has contributed more to the evolution of the game over such a long period as him.
It's crazy when you think about the fact that he's quite probably the best European player of all time, yet his managerial impact quite possibly overshadows his playing legacy.
It's crazy when you think about the fact that he's quite probably the best European player of all time, yet his managerial impact quite possibly overshadows his playing legacy.
He was inconsistent though. Not in the Ben Arfa sense, as his bottom level was very high, but there were other players carrying that juve side after the first two seasons were he was momentous. And they actually improved as a team when Nedved replaced him.
Wildcard option but Del Bosque should be in there for me. Could likely put Deschamps in there as well but he's leaning on the WC a bit too much maybe on the management side.
As a player Del Bosque was very successful with Real (5 La Ligas and load of domestic cups) and then, when you're looking at managerial honours, he's pretty untouchable when it comes to all round trophies. World Cup, Euros, 2 x CL, 2x La Liga.
As a player Del Bosque was very successful with Real (5 La Ligas and load of domestic cups) and then, when you're looking at managerial honours, he's pretty untouchable when it comes to all round trophies. World Cup, Euros, 2 x CL, 2x La Liga.
No one could ever crucify that man playing the game, nothing short of a marvel to watch.
It's madness. People take his last two years at Madrid and somehow stretch it throughout his career. He was 33 and 34 at the time and simply not the same player. He was even inconsistent in big games. What he did at the world cup in 06 was nothing short of a miracle.
In his prime, tuning into any match he played was well worth it. A technical ability were not likely to see again. Nothing short of a master of his craft.
Cant agree with this. Total football had a bigger impact on football than the dream team, and he defined that side.
This is such nonsense. Guardiola was the player Xavi modelled his football upon. He was Xavi before Xavi and a good argument he was a better midfielder than Keane or Vieira, I mean he outpassed them both in Europe, although massively different styles of player.
On his best days he was maybe the best deep lying playmaker in the world, but he was not quite in the same class as Vieira and keane as midfielders go.
And frankly, not the same kind of player as Xavi either. Trying to pigeonhole Xavi into the guardiola role was a major reason he struggled to fulfil his potential. It was only when Rijkaard moved him higher up the pitch that he came into his own.
The closest comparison is probably Xabi Alonso, but I'd still say Alonso was a better player. Guardiola peaked quite early and spent a lot of his prime catching up after long injury layoffs and then struggling to find a place in Van Gaal's midfield. He was the most talented of the Spanish contingent that cruyff brought through which perhaps elevated his stature in Barcelona a bit more than it otherwise would have.
He was a better creative passer than all of those bar Effenberg. He also played on even terms with Keane, Redondo and probably got the better of Vieira, but I suppose that's as a whole part of the team. As is his European Cup, European Cup Winners Cup, 6 league titles, Spanish cup. He was underrated in the 90s, like Xavi was underrated pre-Guardiola.
I don't think Vieira or Keane, can either pass through the lines like Guardiola below
I don't think there anywhere near to as creative. They both obviously are better box to box operaters but it's almost a complete different position. A bit like comparing Kante to Fabregas.
I don't think Alonso has the same vision and precision either, although he's undoubtadly a better long passer
Is it just me or is Pep vastly overrated as a player on here? He was never really a top top player.
I think the top 3 manager/player combined would be-
Cryuff
Zidane
Beckenbauer
I think the top 3 manager/player combined would be-
Cryuff
Zidane
Beckenbauer
It's Cruyff by mile above who ever comes second.
Guardiola simply didn't have the same consistency, body of work, physique, defensive ability or mentality to match those three. He was good, and extremely talented, but he wasn't that good. Basically a bit too powder puff to match.
Last edited:
Del Bosque, Guardiola, Ancelotti, etc... were simply not good enough as players to be in this conversation.
Realistically this debate boils down to 3 contenders: Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Zidane
Realistically this debate boils down to 3 contenders: Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Zidane
1. Cruyff
Player - 10/10
Coach - 9/10
Why? - GOAT as player, won a lot of trophies as manager. His coaching method was great success and laid foundation for both Ajax and Barca.
2. Beckenbauer
Player - 10/10
Coach - 8.5/10
Why? - GOAT as player, won WC as player and then as manager. Also won a few club trophies as manager.
3. Zidane
Player - 9.5/10
Coach - 8/10
Why? - Best player in his generation, has perfect CV during his 4 years coaching career so far - won 3 CL in a row, and 2 league titles.
4. Pep
Player - 7.5/10
Coach - 10/10
Why? - very good DM in his generation, won everything as footballer and even more so as manager at club level, including treble. His all conquering Tika taka football style during Barca prime years was probably one of the best we’ve ever seen.
Player - 10/10
Coach - 9/10
Why? - GOAT as player, won a lot of trophies as manager. His coaching method was great success and laid foundation for both Ajax and Barca.
2. Beckenbauer
Player - 10/10
Coach - 8.5/10
Why? - GOAT as player, won WC as player and then as manager. Also won a few club trophies as manager.
3. Zidane
Player - 9.5/10
Coach - 8/10
Why? - Best player in his generation, has perfect CV during his 4 years coaching career so far - won 3 CL in a row, and 2 league titles.
4. Pep
Player - 7.5/10
Coach - 10/10
Why? - very good DM in his generation, won everything as footballer and even more so as manager at club level, including treble. His all conquering Tika taka football style during Barca prime years was probably one of the best we’ve ever seen.
Last edited:
Can't see how it would be anyone other than Cruyff. I never watched him play but he's on a very shortlist of the greatest European players ever (from what I've read,) and was a visionary as a manager.
I agree that Guardiola the player has been unfairly downplayed on here. He was a top midfielder and arguably the best passer from the base of midfield in the 1990s. But if we are comparing a waify, deep-lying playmaker with box-to-box machines, then we have to consider how influential they were on matches, and I'm not sure he was ever as singularly influential on midfield proceedings as Keane or Vieira (few were to be honest), despite being a better passer than either of those two. In his era I think it's just Redondo who was a comparable user of the ball, but with added defensive steel. As Guardiola admitted himself, his off-the-ball game wasn't great and physically he was very lightweight. Ironically Pep the player would have been a more prized asset in the current era that Pep the manager has helped create. Much greater emphasis on ball retention, positioning, fewer transitions, fewer second balls - all of that would have helped him.
Effenberg was a better passer than both and imo was also a superior midfielder to both. But he was also a bit higher up the pitch.
While winning a world cup puts him in the picture, i never thought Beckenbauer was more than just an average/decent international manager that had blandly played in-trend tactics of the day. Those West German national teams he managed would often play some very disjointed football considering the great quality of player they had to select. Hard not to eventually win a tournament with those resources, but i saw nothing special tactically.
Vogts after him was even worse and also still won a tournament.
Vogts after him was even worse and also still won a tournament.
Last edited:
SAF
Player ?/10
Manager 1000/10
Player ?/10
Manager 1000/10
Regarding Cruyff vs Zidane, I feel that they were equal talents, but Cruyff used his talent better and was therefore the more effective footballer.
Cruyff was a better manager too, so he edges Zidane in both departments.
Cruyff was a better manager too, so he edges Zidane in both departments.
That comb over he used to have made him look a bit older but that is pushing it a bit faroh dear, I'm getting old
I always thought Charlton was the manager of 66 WC win
This is the correct answer.
Surprised no one has mentioned Deschamps, maybe not the best, but he certainly deserves to be part of the conversation. Not many have won the world cup as a player and a manager.
Also think both Pep and Zidane are being under rated as players by some here. Pep played at a time when DMs just were not fashionable, but for what he did he was very highly rated, 6 la liga medals and a European Cup is nothing to be sniffed at, and Zidane was massively rated when he was playing, I don't get the line that he has been hyped up since, he was the most expensive player in the world for a short time when he moved from Juve to Real.
But to be fair I would agree that Cryuff probably wins this.
Also think both Pep and Zidane are being under rated as players by some here. Pep played at a time when DMs just were not fashionable, but for what he did he was very highly rated, 6 la liga medals and a European Cup is nothing to be sniffed at, and Zidane was massively rated when he was playing, I don't get the line that he has been hyped up since, he was the most expensive player in the world for a short time when he moved from Juve to Real.
But to be fair I would agree that Cryuff probably wins this.