Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

[He'sRaldo]

He's not a racist, he's a very naughty boy.

Important to note that one can entertain a racially prejudiced thought without being a racist. Most people will have done this at least once throughout the course of their life.

Still, it's important to catch these thoughts when they come without fear of being called a racist. Because left unchecked they can influence words and actions, to the point of full-blown racist behaviour.

 

[Don Juan Matus]

Mental how there is a 76-page thread about this guy on here he really winds people up doesn't he?

 

[FrankDrebin]

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Who's the dude that's got Souness shit scared on the floor ?

 

[RooneyLegend]

Why do people take him seriously? He single handedly dismantled a dynasty in like two years. The Moyes of his time.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Important to note that one can entertain a racially prejudiced thought without being a racist. Most people will have done this at least once throughout the course of their life.

Still, it's important to catch these thoughts when they come without fear of being called a racist. Because left unchecked they can influence words and actions, to the point of full-blown racist behaviour.

All racists are cnuts, not all cnuts are racists.

 

[Fortitude]

Beckham is probably comparable to Pogba in terms of his type of uber celebrity (also accused of underachieving after a major international transfer). He got pelters at times too, but to my memory it wasn't as constant as it seems to be with Pogba. Although there was never a question about Beckham's workrate on the pitch.

We could see something like it with Grealish I reckon, City want to turn him into their Beckham. He's got that kind of arrogance on the pitch, likes to hold onto the ball, not the greatest defensive contributor, and he has a similar, if less flamboyant, style of public engagement. And he's another British record transfer. It's a reasonable comparison, at least.

I can see why you’d say that about the social media or embracing of fame and celebrity, but on the pitch, Beckham’s grit and consistency and his lack of playfulness or trickery would be right up Souness’s street. There’s also the carefree-nothing-bothers me nature and dancing etc to Pogba that, I believe, gets under Souness’s wear your heart on your sleeve and die for your team, nature. I just think Pogba - everything he stands for in the modern game - is custom-made to get under Souness’s skin in a way few others who have achieved such status in the game could.

I genuinely can’t think of another player to trigger Souness to the degree Pogba does. It’s a total era clash of two polar opposite players. Souness is every cliche of the hardman midfielder of the 70’s and 80’s that there is, and in many ways, for him being one of the best midfielders of the era, he is an embodiment of a midfield persona that’s been eradicated from the game - I think Pogba creates syntax errors in his brain he just cannot overcome.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

For me this is about how you try to deal with racism in football. I don't think that you can do that just by banning fans who make monkey chants in the grounds, or who abuse black players on football, because that isn't the only form of racism there is. It would be nice if Sky could talk about how their program might be contributing to racist ideas and not have its presenters shut down any conversation where people question the sense in what they say - like in the Micah Richards example.

He's paid to be a pundit, which means he's meant to offer knowledge and analysis of the game. He doesn't do that, he just tells an international audience that he doesn't like Pogba every week. You can like him for that, i guess, but he's normally on with Roy Keane, Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher. You think that they're insipid and Souness is the only one being brave and opinionated? The issue I have with punditry is that most of them would rather talk about how much they like or don't like certain players than what tactically is happening in the game.

Well there's a revisionist view.

The idea that Sky are contributing to racist ideas is bullshit, they don't need to talk about anything of the sort. No one shuts down others, it isn't GMB or GB News. You obviously missed the excellent debates they had with articulate journos like Darren Lewis.

You don't deal with racism in football; you deal with racism in society.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I can see why you’d say that about the social media or embracing of fame and celebrity, but on the pitch, Beckham’s grit and consistency and his lack of playfulness or trickery would be right up Souness’s street. There’s also the carefree-nothing-bothers me nature and dancing etc to Pogba that, I believe, gets under Souness’s wear your heart on your sleeve and die for your team, nature. I just think Pogba - everything he stands for in the modern game - is custom-made to get under Souness’s skin in a way few others who have achieved such status in the game could.

I genuinely can’t think of another player to trigger Souness to the degree Pogba does. It’s a total era clash of two polar opposite players. Souness is every cliche of the hardman midfielder of the 70’s and 80’s that there is, and in many ways, for him being one of the best midfielders of the era, he is an embodiment of a midfield persona that’s been eradicated from the game - I think Pogba creates syntax errors in his brain he just cannot overcome.

Yet this is the man who felt he was good enough to break into the Spurs team of the early 70s and pretty much let the great Bill Nicholson know that. It may be possible that he envies Pogba's talent?

 

[arthurka]

It's funny because it's true.

 

[Fortitude]

I see your point and I do think Pogbas flamboyant nature is part of what riles Souness. But what about Foden and his Gascoigne hair? Grealish is also rather flamboyant. Not a peep about them.

It’s not just dying hair, it’s: dancing; it’s having celebrity status; it’s Pogba being an icon to some. Gascoigne was one of the lads, ultimately; perceived to (over)play for his team and teammates - whereas Pogba is perceived as a showtime, glory player who is not there once the grafting starts. Relative to Souness, it’s very easy to reach such a conclusion especially if your mind is closed and you have a pre-conceived notion of what a midfielder is like Souness, and many others, have.

I personally don’t think Grealish is anything like Pogba - the drinking, the off the pitch antics: they’re more of a throwback to Souness’s time than anything Pogba does off the pitch. I’d bet Souness can ‘get’ Grealish and identify his antics in teammates he himself played with.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It's funny because it's true.

Reminds of the stick that knob Tim Sherwood got for describing Ndombele as purely a physical player who ran all over the place, basically that was his only contribution

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It’s not just dying hair, it’s: dancing; it’s having celebrity status; it’s Pogba being an icon to some. Gascoigne was one of the lads, ultimately; perceived to (over)play for his team and teammates - whereas Pogba is perceived as a showtime, glory player who is not there once the grafting starts. Relative to Souness, it’s very easy to reach such a conclusion especially if your mind is closed and you have a pre-conceived notion of what a midfielder is like Souness, and many others, have.

I personally don’t think Grealish is anything like Pogba - the drinking, the off the pitch antics: they’re more of a throwback to Souness’s time than anything Pogba does off the pitch. I’d bet Souness can ‘get’ Grealish and identify his antics in teammates he himself played with.

Not forgetting his speeding offence.

I'm not convinced that he identifies with him as such, it may be he doesn't get as much criticism because Souness doesn't rate him as highly. It'll be interesting to watch how he performs with the £100m price tag and weight of expectation, and whether Souness criticises him with the same zeal.

 

[Fortitude]

Yet this is the man who felt he was good enough to break into the Spurs team of the early 70s and pretty much let the great Bill Nicholson know that. It may be possible that he envies Pogba's talent?

I think you’d have to strip Pogba of his individuality and attitude to life to appease Souness. He did go on about Pogba being a waste of talent and dug him out for not grafting. I don’t know if I’d say it’s footballing envy as Souness has a massive ego and, I’d wager, thinks he’d have bested Pogba on the pitch; possibly financial, for the fact Pogba’s earnings in this day and age dwarfed his.

 

[Fortitude]

Not forgetting his speeding offence.

I'm not convinced that he identifies with him as such, it may be he doesn't get as much criticism because Souness doesn't rate him as highly. It'll be interesting to watch how he performs with the £100m price tag and weight of expectation, and whether Souness criticises him with the same zeal.

For me, it’d be a surprise to see him dig Grealish out; there’s got to be comments and a take on Grealish at Villa for us to gauge, surely?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I think you’d have to strip Pogba of his individuality and attitude to life to appease Souness. He did go on about Pogba being a waste of talent and dug him out for not grafting. I don’t know if I’d say it’s footballing envy as Souness has a massive ego and, I’d wager, thinks he’d have bested Pogba on the pitch; possibly financial, for the fact Pogba’s earnings in this day and age dwarfed his.

By 1970s standards, yes but he'd have got away with leg breaking tackles. By today's? Nope, he'd see red. In balance, I saw a lot of his matches and on his day when allowed he was majestic. I watched the Scotland - Netherlands game in the WC of 1978 where Scotland won 3-2 but went out heroically. Souness ran the show in what might be called ...Pogba-esque fashion . So his calling out of Pogba has to be based on his perceived pre occupation with his 'brand'. Whether it's financial or not could be debated

 

[Inigo Montoya]

For me, it’d be a surprise to see him dig Grealish out; there’s got to be comments and a take on Grealish at Villa for us to gauge, surely?

Grealish played for a crap team when he was at Villa. Their rivals are Birmingham

Pogba- Utd! Nuff said. Souness isn't going to give Liverpool fans any more reason to hate him any more than they do

 

[GreenFieldsGoldenBarley]

Well there's a revisionist view.

That's not what revisionism means. People have been critical of Sky's representation for absolutely ages.

The idea that Sky are contributing to racist ideas is bullshit, they don't need to talk about anything of the sort. No one shuts down others, it isn't GMB or GB News. You obviously missed the excellent debates they had with articulate journos like Darren Lewis.

No it isn't, doing some good stuff about race in some programmes doesn't mean you don't need to be reflective about the rest of your content.

You don't deal with racism in football; you deal with racism in society.

And last I checked football is part of society. Clearly race in football is a major issue - check out England fans at the Euros - I think it's a good idea to at least try to deal with that. Maybe changes in football can lead to changes in wider society. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

Liverpool fans hate G. Soulless?
Why?

 

[Sandikan]

More than happy if Pogba walks on a free if he performs and gives his all. feck anybody who thinks otherwise

Oooohh

 

[OL29]

Liverpool fans hate G. Soulless?
Why?

I’m guessing because he had them fighting relegation as a manager.

 

[Pexbo]

Liverpool fans hate G. Soulless?
Why?

He was the catalyst to 30 years of pain.

 

[Fortitude]

By 1970s standards, yes but he'd have got away with leg breaking tackles. By today's? Nope, he'd see red. In balance, I saw a lot of his matches and on his day when allowed he was majestic. I watched the Scotland - Netherlands game in the WC of 1978 where Scotland won 3-2 but went out heroically. Souness ran the show in what might be called ...Pogba-esque fashion . So his calling out of Pogba has to be based on his perceived pre occupation with his 'brand'. Whether it's financial or not could be debated

Absolutely; I just don’t think it’s an on the pitch envy.

Grealish played for a crap team when he was at Villa. Their rivals are Birmingham

Pogba- Utd! Nuff said. Souness isn't going to give Liverpool fans any more reason to hate him any more than they do

That’s the icing on the proverbial cake.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

That's not what revisionism means. People have been critical of Sky's representation for absolutely ages.



No it isn't, doing some good stuff about race in some programmes doesn't mean you don't need to be reflective about the rest of your content.



And last I checked football is part of society. Clearly race in football is a major issue - check out England fans at the Euros - I think it's a good idea to at least try to deal with that. Maybe changes in football can lead to changes in wider society. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

So it's football's responsibility to deal with society's ills? Naïve and idealistic to say the least. What changes pray can football make that will lead to society being racism free?

On the subject of Sky. If we're speaking generally about large global corporations then Sky is only a part of that. As a media company they all have a responsibility to combat prejudice and maybe you should take your grievance to Twitter and FB to name but 2 and ask them what they're doing about it. I've been impressed with Sky Sports and their work to become more inclusive and TBH the BBC and BT Sports have been the ones to follow their lead. Have they got more work to do? yes but so have we all but you just throwing accusations around that they enable racism because Pogba get criticised by Souness is a very specious argument. But stick with your agenda. I'd be interested to follow your posts and see how consistent you are

 

[fishfingers15]

Oooohh

There, I've said it.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Liverpool fans hate G. Soulless?
Why?

Sold his life story to The Sun just after Hillsborough. That rag pushed so many lies that it was boycotted in Liverpool

 

[Sandikan]

Sourness is a guy who watched Ali Dia in training for a week and thought he was premier league class.

Nothing more needs saying.

 

[Malcusss]

Well there's a revisionist view.

The idea that Sky are contributing to racist ideas is bullshit, they don't need to talk about anything of the sort. No one shuts down others, it isn't GMB or GB News. You obviously missed the excellent debates they had with articulate journos like Darren Lewis.

You don't deal with racism in football; you deal with racism in society.

You deal with racism everywhere you can, and, moreover, football is a very prominent part of society. Why not deal with racism in football? It's a weird take at the very least - everyone in football has been trying to deal with racism in the game, and thus society, for as long as I can remember. Do you think they're wrong in doing so? Sounds a bit like football should be a safe-haven from combatting racism (and racists), which is...weird?

It’s not just dying hair, it’s: dancing; it’s having celebrity status; it’s Pogba being an icon to some. Gascoigne was one of the lads, ultimately; perceived to (over)play for his team and teammates - whereas Pogba is perceived as a showtime, glory player who is not there once the grafting starts. Relative to Souness, it’s very easy to reach such a conclusion especially if your mind is closed and you have a pre-conceived notion of what a midfielder is like Souness, and many others, have.

I personally don’t think Grealish is anything like Pogba - the drinking, the off the pitch antics: they’re more of a throwback to Souness’s time than anything Pogba does off the pitch. I’d bet Souness can ‘get’ Grealish and identify his antics in teammates he himself played with.

This last bit is interesting in the subconscious bias element of prejudice. "Othering" people who are unlike what you are used to is a chief vehicle of racism, subconscious or otherwise. This includes criticizing too severely compared to people who are like you, grouping people who you perceive to be different than you together, judging others differently, simply not making an effort to go beyond the biases that make you "get" people like you and make out others' attitudes and actions to be wrong or misguided, among an assortment of other attitudes.

Whether or not Sounds is racist, why are some acting as if a 70-year-old Scotsman fixated on criticizing a black possibly espousing racial biases would be a terrible shock?

I have no idea whether Souness is racist or not and I'd like to give the man the benefit of the doubt and entertain other possibilities without jumping to conclusions. It seems fair to assume that maybe he's just detestable to people of all races.

 

[Vanrouge]

That's not what revisionism means. People have been critical of Sky's representation for absolutely ages.



No it isn't, doing some good stuff about race in some programmes doesn't mean you don't need to be reflective about the rest of your content.



And last I checked football is part of society. Clearly race in football is a major issue - check out England fans at the Euros - I think it's a good idea to at least try to deal with that. Maybe changes in football can lead to changes in wider society. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

Yes, it would.

 

[Ødegaard]

Sourness is absolutely terrible anyway, shouldn't be on any shows.

 

[::sonny::]

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[GreenFieldsGoldenBarley]

So it's football's responsibility to deal with society's ills? Naïve and idealistic to say the least. What changes pray can football make that will lead to society being racism free?

On the subject of Sky. If we're speaking generally about large global corporations then Sky is only a part of that. As a media company they all have a responsibility to combat prejudice and maybe you should take your grievance to Twitter and FB to name but 2 and ask them what they're doing about it. I've been impressed with Sky Sports and their work to become more inclusive and TBH the BBC and BT Sports have been the ones to follow their lead. Have they got more work to do? yes but so have we all but you just throwing accusations around that they enable racism because Pogba get criticised by Souness is a very specious argument. But stick with your agenda. I'd be interested to follow your posts and see how consistent you are

I am not asking Sky to solve all society's ills - that's a strawman. But I do think they should be more reflective of how they do representation - because racism is a serious issue in society, and, as lots of more intelligent people than me have already argued, representation in the media plays a role in this.

Oh, and well in for saying that wanting football to try and deal with racism is just me having an agenda. That's a smashing take.

 

[OL29]

So it's football's responsibility to deal with society's ills? Naïve and idealistic to say the least. What changes pray can football make that will lead to society being racism free?

Pretty sure nobody’s saying that solving racism in football will completely eliminate racism in society. It definitely will help though, it’s foolish to suggest otherwise. Even if it didn’t, don’t you feel that at the very least, those within the game deserve to be treated with equality?

 

[Vanrouge]

So it's football's responsibility to deal with society's ills? Naïve and idealistic to say the least. What changes pray can football make that will lead to society being racism free?

On the subject of Sky. If we're speaking generally about large global corporations then Sky is only a part of that. As a media company they all have a responsibility to combat prejudice and maybe you should take your grievance to Twitter and FB to name but 2 and ask them what they're doing about it. I've been impressed with Sky Sports and their work to become more inclusive and TBH the BBC and BT Sports have been the ones to follow their lead. Have they got more work to do? yes but so have we all but you just throwing accusations around that they enable racism because Pogba get criticised by Souness is a very specious argument. But stick with your agenda. I'd be interested to follow your posts and see how consistent you are

All of society, including football, which is one aspect off that society, has a responsibility to deal with racism. That's not a controversial thing to say. And there are many areas where football is taking up that challenge, such as taking a knee before every Premier League game, showing awareness of racial abuse in the stadiums and on social media, and a host of other aspects of the sickness that we call racism. All some of us are asking is that football-related media extend that education to its pundits too, many of whom are possibly unaware of how they're feeding into or parroting historic racist tropes. Education is a major tool in combating racism.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

You deal with racism everywhere you can, and, moreover, football is a very prominent part of society. Why not deal with racism in football? It's a weird take at the very least - everyone in football has been trying to deal with racism in the game, and thus society, for as long as I can remember. Do you think they're wrong in doing so?



This last bit is interesting in the subconscious bias element of prejudice. "Othering" people who are unlike what you are used to is a chief vehicle of racism, subconscious or otherwise. This includes criticizing too severely compared to people who are like you, grouping people who you perceive to be different than you together, judging others differently, simply not making an effort to go beyond the biases that make you "get" people like you and make out others' attitudes and actions to be wrong or misguided, among an assortment of other attitudes.

Whether or not Sounds is racist, why are some acting as if a 70-year-old Scotsman fixated on criticizing a black possibly espousing racial biases would be a terrible shock?

I have no idea whether Souness is racist or not and I'd like to give the man the benefit of the doubt and entertain other possibilities without jumping to conclusions. It seems fair to assume that maybe he's just detestable to people of all races.

Not what I said in the least. There were years when I wouldn't go to football matches because the racist abuse of both players and fans was disgusting.

The point was raised on Sky's pundits and whether they should consider criticism of Pogba by Souness as it comes across as racist. Football has a part to play but so have just about all institutions in society. It's a rather weal argument to say, " Well football is doing its bit, I'm happy," when other industries from white collar jobs,media,politics etc still throw up barriers to inclusion.

Football at grass roots level(which I'm involved with) is making great strides to tackle racism but there's still a huge amount to do in terms of education if those kids go back to households where racial stereotypes are reinforced.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Pretty sure nobody’s saying that solving racism in football will completely eliminate racism in society. It definitely will help though, it’s foolish to suggest otherwise. Even if it didn’t, don’t you feel that at the very least, those within the game deserve to be treated with equality?

Of course everyone does. But the point being made by some is, Souness' pre occupation with Pogba is now coming under the microscope so much that every nuance of criticism will be dissected to the point that it becomes impossible to know fully what he believes about Pogba or is he just playing to the gallery?

 

[Malcusss]

Not what I said in the least. There were years when I wouldn't go to football matches because the racist abuse of both players and fans was disgusting.

The point was raised on Sky's pundits and whether they should consider criticism of Pogba by Souness as it comes across as racist. Football has a part to play but so have just about all institutions in society. It's a rather weal argument to say, " Well football is doing its bit, I'm happy," when other industries from white collar jobs,media,politics etc still throw up barriers to inclusion.

Football at grass roots level(which I'm involved with) is making great strides to tackle racism but there's still a huge amount to do in terms of education if those kids go back to households where racial stereotypes are reinforced.

What you said was "you don't deal with racism in football", and, regardless of what you meant, I'm sure you can forgive us for interpreting that as "you don't deal with racism in football".

Otherwise point taken, though I'm not sure anyone is making the point that we should only deal with racism in football. We're all in agreement that football has but a part to play, and sky sports analysts are a part of that.

 

[Vanrouge]

Not what I said in the least. There were years when I wouldn't go to football matches because the racist abuse of both players and fans was disgusting.

The point was raised on Sky's pundits and whether they should consider criticism of Pogba by Souness as it comes across as racist. Football has a part to play but so have just about all institutions in society. It's a rather weal argument to say, " Well football is doing its bit, I'm happy," when other industries from white collar jobs,media,politics etc still throw up barriers to inclusion.

Football at grass roots level(which I'm involved with) is making great strides to tackle racism but there's still a huge amount to do in terms of education if those kids go back to households where racial stereotypes are reinforced.

This I largely agree with and applaud, but to take it back to Souness, for a moment: if his criticisms of Pogba have tended to overlap with traditional racist tropes that have existed for centuries and still exist (see the Key and Peele clip MiceOnMeth posted), it's not unreasonable for people to at least wonder, if not outright question, why that might be. The thoughtful people commenting here are not outright accusing Souness of being a racist; they're widening the discussion to help highlight how those and similar criticisms have been racial in nature for hundreds of years. No one other than Souness himself knows whether he is bringing his own personal racial animus into his discussions of Pogba, and even if he were, he might not be conscious of it. It's a nuanced discussion that we could all afford to pay close attention to, imo.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

All of society, including football, which is one aspect off that society, has a responsibility to deal with racism. That's not a controversial thing to say. And there are many areas where football is taking up that challenge, such as taking a knee before every Premier League game, showing awareness of racial abuse in the stadiums and on social media, and a host of other aspects of the sickness that we call racism. All some of us are asking is that football-related media extend that education to its pundits too, many of whom are possibly unaware of how they're feeding into or parroting historic racist tropes. Education is a major tool in combating racism.

Then you're not going to get Souness to change. If he suddenly does it will be viewed as disingenuous.

Of course education is a major tool in combating any prejudice be it racist or sexist, but it begins at home! That's the initial and arguably the most important place those discussions should be had. I know as an educator of many years how hard it is to combat and change ingrained views. I've had heated conversations with parents who have told me and my colleagues to stop feeding their kids left-wing views about inclusion etc and just stick to maths and English! I've had heated conversations with senior leaders when kids have called other kids: Paki,Nigger,Chinky etc but we aren't allowed to pull them up too hard in case it angers their parents!

 

[Inigo Montoya]

What you said was "you don't deal with racism in football", and, regardless of what you meant, I'm sure you can forgive us for interpreting that as "you don't deal with racism in football".

Otherwise point taken, though I'm not sure anyone is making the point that we should only deal with racism in football. We're all in agreement that football has but a part to play, and sky sports analysts are a part of that.

Thank you, at least you got the gist of my argument. I've lived too long with far too much racism and racist attacks on myself and my parents. I have become rather cynical

 

[Fluctuation0161]

It’s not just dying hair, it’s: dancing; it’s having celebrity status; it’s Pogba being an icon to some. Gascoigne was one of the lads, ultimately; perceived to (over)play for his team and teammates - whereas Pogba is perceived as a showtime, glory player who is not there once the grafting starts. Relative to Souness, it’s very easy to reach such a conclusion especially if your mind is closed and you have a pre-conceived notion of what a midfielder is like Souness, and many others, have.

I personally don’t think Grealish is anything like Pogba - the drinking, the off the pitch antics: they’re more of a throwback to Souness’s time than anything Pogba does off the pitch. I’d bet Souness can ‘get’ Grealish and identify his antics in teammates he himself played with.

There is definitely merit to your point here. I think all of that factors in, absolutely.

You also have to factor in how the (print) media portray black players negatively, Sterling being the prime example (recently Rice), and how that type of subtle messaging has also been done with Pogba. That could also easily influence Souness and his opinion. At quite a subtle but core level.