Great players who underachieve for their talent, why doesn't their decision making attract more scrutiny?

[Dancfc]

Many times we keep hearing people making Kane a victim of his trophyless career but at the same time, who forced him keep signing big contracts at Spurs when any club in the world would have had him? Surely that has to be factored in when discussing his trophyless career to date. Compare that to Walker who realised he needed a move to win reguarly and made it happen.

Another example on the other end of the spectrum would be Lewandowski, he could have stayed at Dortmund and had everyone saying "poor Lewa great striker but Bayern keep denying him the trophies he deserves" but no he joined Bayern and made sure he won those trophies (I know he already had two Bundi's but still).

Decision making is a big part of what shapes a players career but it never seems to be discussed when talking about great players who underachieved in terms of trophy haul compared to their talent, it's almost always sticking to clubs underachieving and/or not having the resources to win.

 

[horsechoker]

Anyone following Matt Le Tissier will know how good his decision making is

 

[stefan92]

Many times we keep hearing people making Kane a victim of his trophyless career but at the same time, who forced him keep signing big contracts at Spurs when any club in the world would have had him? Surely that has to be factored in when discussing his trophyless career to date. Compare that to Walker who realised he needed a move to win reguarly and made it happen.

Another example on the other end of the spectrum would be Lewandowski, he could have stayed at Dortmund and had everyone saying "poor Lewa great striker but Bayern keep denying him the trophies he deserves" but no he joined Bayern and made sure he won those trophies (I know he already had two Bundi's but still).

Decision making is a big part of what shapes a players career but it never seems to be discussed when talking about great players who underahcieved in terms of trophy haul compared to their talent, it's almost always sticking to clubs underachieving and/or not having the resources to win.

I'm not sure it works that way. Do you remember many great players, who won nothing? I feel like those players tend to be forgotten quite fast once their career ends. I don't think that people will talk about Kane as one of the greats in 20 years.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Maybe for some players it is about having a career playing the sport they love and trophies and awards are a nice but secondary bonus.

For many the simple act of representing their country at an international tournament is a really big accomplishment.

 

[padr81]

Anyone following Matt Le Tissier will know how good his decision making is

Pretty good, I hear he's a virologist now.

 

[padr81]

I'm not sure it works that way. Do you remember many great players, who won nothing? I feel like those players tend to be forgotten quite fast once their career ends. I don't think that people will talk about Kane as one of the greats in 20 years.

Totti won little at club level, if England win a major trophy he'll be remembered, Shearer is also remembered and won feck all.

 

[Dancfc]

I'm not sure it works that way. Do you remember many great players, who won nothing? I feel like those players tend to be forgotten quite fast once their career ends. I don't think that people will talk about Kane as one of the greats in 20 years.

Even though he won other cups and the UCL Gerrard gets excuses rolled out for him for not winning leagues (aswell as the whole "he deserves it" stuff in the 2014 run in) when any regular title winning team would have had him.

 

[Dancfc]

Maybe for some players it is about having a career playing the sport they love and trophies and awards are a nice but secondary bonus.

For many the simple act of representing their country at an international tournament is a really big accomplishment.

Which is fair enough but then they shouldn't have the "its the teams he played for" excuse rolled out when the fact they won little to nothing is brought up.

 

[stefan92]

Totti won little at club level, if England win a major trophy he'll be remembered, Shearer is also remembered and won feck all.

Sure, but so far England did win nothing. That might change, but until than the point stands.

 

[padr81]

Sure, but so far England did win nothing. That might change, but until than the point stands.

It would be a poor return for a player of his quality for sure though. Best player never to win a trophy maybe? At least modern era

 

[Carl]

Totti won little at club level, if England win a major trophy he'll be remembered, Shearer is also remembered and won feck all.

Won a premier league, which is more than most.

 

[Dancfc]

Won a premier league, which is more than most.

And had a chance to add a hell of a lot more plus a UCL or two.

I get why he did it but as with the above examples it was his decision to effectively forefit more silverware and he shouldn't get the "yeah but he played for Newcastle" line if he's compared to multi trophy winning forwards.

 

[georgipep]

Totti won little at club level, if England win a major trophy he'll be remembered, Shearer is also remembered and won feck all.

I doubt there are many under 25 non-British football fans that know who Shearer is.

 

[Wolf1992]

I doubt there are many under 25 non-British football fans that know who Shearer is.

Shearer played in an era when cable TV wasn't massive yet, obviously not many young non-british people will know him.

For Shearer to be remembered outside of UK in an era with no cable TV, he would have to win WC as top scorer like Paolo Rossi, who is still remembered by many outside of Italy despite not having a world class career at club level.

 

[Chipper]

And had a chance to add a hell of a lot more plus a UCL or two.

I get why he did it but as with the above examples it was his decision to effectively forefit more silverware and he shouldn't get the "yeah but he played for Newcastle" line if he's compared to multi trophy winning forwards.

Why not if it's true?

I mean if someone was to come out and say Andy Cole was better than Alan Shearer because he won more then that would be silly because winning more doesn't make you a better player and it would be true that Shearer moving to Newcastle as opposed to Cole leaving there was one of the main reasons why their trophy haul was different.

 

[GuyfromAustria]

For Shearer to be remembered outside of UK in an era with no cable TV, he would have to win WC as top scorer like Paolo Rossi, who is still remembered by many outside of Italy despite not having a world class career at club level.

I'd honestly be surprised if a single person I know had the slightest clue who Paolo Rossi is.

 

[Wolf1992]

I'd honestly be surprised if a single person I know had the slightest clue who Paolo Rossi is.

He is known in South America by many people over 40 years old.

 

[Cascarino]

And had a chance to add a hell of a lot more plus a UCL or two.

I get why he did it but as with the above examples it was his decision to effectively forefit more silverware and he shouldn't get the "yeah but he played for Newcastle" line if he's compared to multi trophy winning forwards.

Why wouldn’t you use the line? If you’re comparing them as players it’s a necessity. Shearer was better than Cole and their respective trophy cabinets won’t change that.

There’s a multitude of reasons why a player won’t have made certain move in their career, everything from ambition (or lack of) to loyalty. When comparing players it’s not a particularly useful tool.

 

[abundance]

well hindsight is 20/20...

There are also plenty of great players who made the ambitous move to a bigger club and faded or didn't gel or got caught in a bad spell of that club and lost prominence while still winning nothing.

 

[Dancfc]

Why not if it's true?

I mean if someone was to come out and say Andy Cole was better than Alan Shearer because he won more then that would be silly because winning more doesn't make you a better player and it would be true that Shearer moving to Newcastle as opposed to Cole leaving there was one of the main reasons why their trophy haul was different.

Why wouldn’t you use the line? If you’re comparing them as players it’s a necessity. Shearer was better than Cole and their respective trophy cabinets won’t change that.

There’s a multitude of reasons why a player won’t have made certain move in their career, everything from ambition (or lack of) to loyalty. When comparing players it’s not a particularly useful tool.

I was thinking more in the context of the success of their career. Shearer had a chance to be as successful as Cole and didn't take it, so playing for Newcastle shouldn't be used as an excuse for him if his lack of success is brought up. By the same token Cole's decision making should be praised to the hilt.

 

[Red Royal]

I'd honestly be surprised if a single person I know had the slightest clue who Paolo Rossi is.

The Paolo Rossi WC 82 story is amazing.

 

[TwoSheds]

It would be a poor return for a player of his quality for sure though. Best player never to win a trophy maybe? At least modern era

Son might be yeah.

 

[Oranges038]

I don't think players like Le Tissier, Shearer or Totti belong in a thread like this. They played for their home club and never wanted to leave despite having the opportunity.

Kane might be because he signed massively stupid contract and then cried off about a supposed gentleman's agreement when he wanted to leave.

 

[Cascarino]

I was thinking more in the context of the success of their career. Shearer had a chance to be as successful as Cole and didn't take it, so playing for Newcastle shouldn't be used as an excuse for him if his lack of success is brought up. By the same token Cole's decision making should be praised to the hilt?

Gotcha, I thought it may have been through the prism of their career rather than a direct comparison between players quality. (I also didn’t know someone else made the Cole comparison, sorry Cole!)

I think you have an argument, someone like Ronaldo has plotted out his career, he’s obviously had an eye not only on his contemporaries but where he’ll stand in the history books, so his trophy cabinet isn’t just a reflection of the player he is now but how he’ll be remembered and compared in the future. Even lesser players Have capitalised with some clever moves, I think Maxwell was the most decorated player ever for a little while. Someone like Kanye winning the league at Leicester and then doing so again immediately at Chelsea played a part in his deserved stellar reputation.

It was kind of funny when Coutinho left Liverpool for Barcelona to win in Europe and then Liverpool went on to win the league and the CL (I knowHe won it at BM but still…).

So there’s definitely a risk and skill to making these jumps/moves and I can understand what you’re saying. Especially regarding players who have the pick of clubs as you said.

 

[ThatDutchPerson]

Maxwell is 2nd on the list of footballers with the most trophies won. Which includes something like 2 La Liga titles, 3 Serie A titles, 4 Ligue 1 titles, a Champions League, and close to 20 cup competitions in those leagues. He finally retired from playing a mere 4(!) years ago.

And I can guarantee you that none of the kids now know who he is.

There’s more to being remembered as a great player than just winning trophies imo.

(For the record: last I checked, Dani Alves is the player with most trophies won. And second place was shared between Maxwell/Messi/Xavi)

 

[Tyrion]

Maybe for some players it is about having a career playing the sport they love and trophies and awards are a nice but secondary bonus.

For many the simple act of representing their country at an international tournament is a really big accomplishment.

Exactly. Trophies aren't the only measure of a career. Gerrard never won the league but he's probably Liverpool's biggest ex-player.

 

[Mick1]

Used to be called club loyalty. Has recently taken a negative connotation.
Not sure I like it

 

[stefan92]

Used to be called club loyalty. Has recently taken a negative connotation.
Not sure I like it

Calling Kane loyal to his club after the way he tried to leave in the summer has to be a joke.

I respect players like Totti, whom you really could believe that he loved the club and wanted to stay there all the time, and I don't think that has a negative connotation. But Kane? Nope, lost all respect I had for him with that transfer saga, and still won nothing. He wanted to leave, but made the wrong decisions about it. Of course that creates a negative image.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Calling Kane loyal to his club after the way he tried to leave in the summer has to be a joke.

I respect players like Totti, whom you really could believe that he loved the club and wanted to stay there all the time, and I don't think that has a negative connotation. But Kane? Nope, lost all respect I had for him with that transfer saga, and still won nothing. He wanted to leave, but made the wrong decisions about it. Of course that creates a negative image.

What wrong decision did Kane make? Wasn't it Levy who stopped his move?

Someone like Kanye winning the league at Leicester and then doing so again immediately at Chelsea played a part in his deserved stellar reputation.

It was kind of funny when Coutinho left Liverpool for Barcelona to win in Europe and then Liverpool went on to win the league and the CL (I knowHe won it at BM but still…).

So there’s definitely a risk and skill to making these jumps/moves and I can understand what you’re saying. Especially regarding players who have the pick of clubs as you said.

This made me laugh because I think it would be the largest story in sports history.

 

[abundance]

Shearer played in an era when cable TV wasn't massive yet, obviously not many young non-british people will know him.

For Shearer to be remembered outside of UK in an era with no cable TV, he would have to win WC as top scorer like Paolo Rossi, who is still remembered by many outside of Italy despite not having a world class career at club level.

Well, 2 Scudettos, 1 Champions Cup, 1 Cup Winners Cup, a Balloon d'Or, 1 Serie A top-scorer, 1 Champions Cup top-scorer...

 

[stefan92]

What wrong decision did Kane make? Wasn't it Levy who stopped his move?

He signed a quite long term contract and then could not get out of it when he wanted to. Should have settled for a shorter contract duration if he wanted the option to leave.

 

[Trequarista10]

Le Tissier and Shearer are great examples of people who ARE scrutinised for their decisions. They are always challenged about it. They each say they are happy with their decisions and that they wouldn't swap being a local legend for a few extra trophies, which is fair enough.

I suppose with Kane what the OP is getting at is signing a big contract when they actually want to move on, which is altogether different. It's largely speculation anyway as we don't know what's in the contracts in terms of release clauses or whatever, but I think its fairly established that a lot of the time it's merely gentleman's agreements, which is naive of footballers to take at face value. How much of that is on them or their agent though? Grealish is another, signed a big contract last summer after links to United fell through. He got his move this summer though. Will we ever know if there was a release clause in that contract, or were Villa merely more honourable with a gentleman's agreement, or was the transfer fee simply too good to turn down? If Kane gets a big move next summer, was his decision making good or was he lucky?

 

[NasirTimothy]

Exactly. Trophies aren't the only measure of a career. Gerrard never won the league but he's probably Liverpool's biggest ex-player.

Kenny Dalglish

 

[We need an rvn]

Totti won little at club level, if England win a major trophy he'll be remembered, Shearer is also remembered and won feck all.

I was about to post about Totti.

He won 1 Serie A title and 2 coppa Italia's, Shearer 1 title....compare that to Darren Fletcher who won 5 PL titles with United.

If I was a betting man, my money would be on people talking about Totti and Shearer in 20 years time over Darren Fletcher. On the other hand, if I was Fletcher, I'd be saying what did they win and at the end of the day many players play to win

 

[We need an rvn]

Le Tissier and Shearer are great examples of people who ARE scrutinised for their decisions. They are always challenged about it. They each say they are happy with their decisions and that they wouldn't swap being a local legend for a few extra trophies, which is fair enough.

I suppose with Kane what the OP is getting at is signing a big contract when they actually want to move on, which is altogether different. It's largely speculation anyway as we don't know what's in the contracts in terms of release clauses or whatever, but I think its fairly established that a lot of the time it's merely gentleman's agreements, which is naive of footballers to take at face value. How much of that is on them or their agent though? Grealish is another, signed a big contract last summer after links to United fell through. He got his move this summer though. Will we ever know if there was a release clause in that contract, or were Villa merely more honourable with a gentleman's agreement, or was the transfer fee simply too good to turn down? If Kane gets a big move next summer, was his decision making good or was he lucky?

Kane will not get a big move next summer. His chance was last summer. This season he's been shocking and what team would now splash £100m for him given how he's performing. If I'm spurs, I would be looking to accept a £70m offer now given his season and the fact he'll be 29 next summer. I look at him and I don't see him being able to play at the top level like Lew at 33 is

 

[NasirTimothy]

I was thinking more in the context of the success of their career. Shearer had a chance to be as successful as Cole and didn't take it, so playing for Newcastle shouldn't be used as an excuse for him if his lack of success is brought up. By the same token Cole's decision making should be praised to the hilt.

Cole in his book said it wasn’t really his choice to leave Newcastle and go to Man United.

 

[Bestietom]

Many times we keep hearing people making Kane a victim of his trophyless career but at the same time, who forced him keep signing big contracts at Spurs when any club in the world would have had him? Surely that has to be factored in when discussing his trophyless career to date. Compare that to Walker who realised he needed a move to win reguarly and made it happen.

Another example on the other end of the spectrum would be Lewandowski, he could have stayed at Dortmund and had everyone saying "poor Lewa great striker but Bayern keep denying him the trophies he deserves" but no he joined Bayern and made sure he won those trophies (I know he already had two Bundi's but still).

Decision making is a big part of what shapes a players career but it never seems to be discussed when talking about great players who underachieved in terms of trophy haul compared to their talent, it's almost always sticking to clubs underachieving and/or not having the resources to win.

His head is after being turned now by City. 1 goal this season so far tells you he is not happy there. Still scoring for England though.

 

[11 forwards]

Which is fair enough but then they shouldn't have the "its the teams he played for" excuse rolled out when the fact they won little to nothing is brought up.

If someone else than the player rolls that excuse out, and the player hasn't complained himself, then why should the players decision making be an issue?

Quite often players are more chill about those things than people who keep count of "the most winning this and that". I guess.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Alan Shearer perhaps?

Also the first thing name to pop into my head when I read the thread name is Riquelme.. But perhaps thats another category reading the OP.

 

[M Bison]

An Anderson video came up on another feed the other day and its amazing what a waste he was. Still only 33, should still be playing at the highest level at that age.

Whilst he won a lot, his career has been a big waste.