Greatest player of all time (Forget longevity)

[Righteous Steps]

I understand your point of view, and it's hard, I just think the hard part is not the the technique, although it will probably depend on our definition. I just saw two very simple foot feints and a well placed shot. Unorthodox due to the lack of momentum, but not a strong shot either, I think any footballer can theoretically pull those moves (unlike some of Ronaldinho's other tricks, dribbles, shots, etc) it's just that it's the kind of thing you expect to see in a group of friends playing beach soccer, not a packed CL stadium against some of the best footballers of the world.

I'm being pedantic, as I equally admire the goal, just more focused on his bright and creative mind rather than his elastico levels of trickery, which he didn't need here.

I get you but a toe poke into the corner of the net is hard, much harder than a volley for example at least for me when playing football, to get direction like that and control over a toe poke is hard, toe pokes are frowned upon because you can’t generate as much power and control over the ball, for him to do that with no back lift is literally one of the most bizarre techniques I’ve seen on a football field and it is probably why we haven‘t seen loads of similar goals thereafter.

I see loads of dribbles tricks shots when playing football on a sunday I haven’t seen a similar goal in all my time playing football right up to semi pro level, or even in the professional leagues I watch, the improvisation is masterful of course, but the actual technique of lifting the ball with a poke into the corner of the net with no backlift is incredible.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Messi 2010-2012
Maradona 84-87
Pele 62-65
R9 96-98

Not in order. If it's a full season, I think you can argue for any of them with R9 lagging a bit behind compared to the others IMO.

If it's for 1 game only, I'd pick Maradona.

 

[galwayfa]

Messi 2010-2012
Maradona 84-87
Pele 62-65
R9 96-98

Not in order. If it's a full season, I think you can argue for any of them with R9 lagging a bit behind compared to the others IMO.

If it's for 1 game only, I'd pick Maradona.

Zico or platini if there was internet 83/84

 

[Daydreamer]

I get you but a toe poke into the corner of the net is hard, much harder than a volley for example at least for me when playing football, to get direction like that and control over a toe poke is hard, toe pokes are frowned upon because you can’t generate as much power and control over the ball, for him to do that with no back lift is literally one of the most bizarre techniques I’ve seen on a football field and it is probably why we haven‘t seen loads of similar goals thereafter.

I see loads of dribbles tricks shots when playing football on a sunday I haven’t seen a similar goal in all my time playing football right up to semi pro level, or even in the professional leagues I watch, the improvisation is masterful of course, but the actual technique of lifting the ball with a poke into the corner of the net with no backlift is incredible.

I think it could look easy at first glance because most of us have scored a toe poke at some point in our lives (whereas as lot of thing Ronaldinho did we can only dream of replicating).

However, a toe poke from outside the area with minimal backlift, pinpoint accuracy into the side-netting and sufficient power that a prime Cech doesn’t even attempt to save it… that actually requires incredibly rare levels of technique.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Hatem Ben Arfa

 

[Josh 76]

Messi 2010-2012
Maradona 84-87
Pele 62-65
R9 96-98

Not in order. If it's a full season, I think you can argue for any of them with R9 lagging a bit behind compared to the others IMO.

If it's for 1 game only, I'd pick Maradona.

Great shout about Pele. Most people think 1970 was his peak. 1962-1965 he was on another planet. It’s a shame there isn’t much footage.

 

[Josh 76]

Messi 2010-2012
Maradona 84-87
Pele 62-65
R9 96-98

Not in order. If it's a full season, I think you can argue for any of them with R9 lagging a bit behind compared to the others IMO.

If it's for 1 game only, I'd pick Maradona.

Cryuff 1971-1974 deserves a mention. Ajax won 3 European cups in a row and Holland should have won the World Cup during his peak.

 

[NoPace]

I thought the entire point of the thread was about an individual's peak leaving longevity out of the equation. I haven't watched many of Baresi's, Moore's or Beckenbauer's games (as I suspect is the case for most people) but I've watched a lot of Ferdinand's and Nesta's. The teams they played in relied on their individual brilliance much less and protected them far more. Milan and United dominated games in a very different way and had much better defenders in their back line. Once again, you could definitely argue that both Nesta and Ferdinand were better players than van Dijk throughout their careers. But that isn't premise of this thread. Unless I've misunderstood it - which is very possible.

I'm too young to have too many takes from pre-2002 or so, but I think peak Van Dijk was better than Ferdinand, Vidic, Terry and Carvalho, so yeah I think it's totally fair. He was basically Ferdinand with better long passing and an extra 4-5 goals (2-3 goals himself but also required more attention and surely had a rebound put in or drew a penalty) from set piece threat. That's a ton of value.

At gunpoint I might take prime Rio in a deep-lying defence (he and Vidic were brilliant in that first half against Barcelona with the front 6 a mess) but 95% of games aren't played like that for a top team and Van Dijk was perfect for a high line team.

So yeah, best Prem CB I've seen and probably only clearly less of a factor than Cristiano and Henry from what I've seen. Wouldn't put Salah, De Bruyne or the best couple Hazard seasons above him, but in his same tier.

Van Dijk is a bit like Van Persie or Suarez. Not a top 10 Prem career like Shearer or Kane, but you could certainly make a case that the best Prem team based off peak seasons would have either as the technically gifted, floaty #9 who could get the best out of Henry on the left and Cristiano on the right who are pretty clear peaks, with apologies to Salah on the right. The difference with Van Dijk is that if you were picking Peak Prem CBs for a squad, I think you'd have Van Dijk #1 and then probably Rio next to him, Vidic or Terry as your aerial guy and then ideally a (left-footed if possible) passer at CB, but the Prem really hasn't had a truly great passer so you'd start Rio. I guess Stam might be some people's choices but before my time.

 

[Oranges038]

Ronaldinho is probably the most creatively gifted footballer I have ever seen. The guy could make the ball do whatever he wanted. If I had to.pick someone to watch solely based of their peak it would be him.

Love this goal, it is fecking awesome.


Destroying Madrid.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Boring answer but realistically the best players ever also had the best peaks - Pele, Messi, Maradona.

 

[General_Elegancia]

From the eye-pleasing, my answer would lean towards the magician like Maradona in the mid of 1980s, Messi in the early 2010s, and probably Pele in the 1960s with the best skillsets from the attackers.

After 3 gods, it would be someone like Ronaldo(R9) during 1996-1998 and Cryuff. It was like watching the two gods of football, he was unstoppable. Ronaldinho, Zidane, Kaka, CR7, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Van Basten, Neymar, Rivaldo, and a lot of great players also have impressive peak forms. Also, the older players that I never had a chance to watch played live like Garrincha, Franz, Muller, ADS, etc.

 

[Ish]

Messi
Ronaldinho

 

[Scottynaldinho]

Forgetting longevity is a non-starter as by that criteria it can be anyone with an outrageous performance in a single game.

 

[tenpoless]

Filipino Inzaghi. Scored a lot of goals during training even against Nesta and Stam.

 

[TenonTen]

Forgetting any kind of longevity? Well Lewandowski scored 5 in 9 minutes......tough to top that.

 

[Bondi77]

Best
Maradona
Messi

 

[Freak]

R9 or Ronaldinho for me. Brought me immense joy and standup moments watching those two. Most kids will get inspired by certain players and try to copy them on the football pitch - I got that from R9 in particular.

 

[NWRed]

Van Dijk had a good season that year, but if you're going to pick a Dutch CB to add to a list like this, and use literally every single argument you've put forward, then you pick the guy who won a treble, beating the absolute cream of Europe along the way, while playing alongside Ronny Johnsen, Henning Berg and David May.

Ronny Johnsen was a very good centre back.

 

[Josh 76]

From the eye-pleasing, my answer would lean towards the magician like Maradona in the mid of 1980s, Messi in the early 2010s, and probably Pele in the 1960s with the best skillsets from the attackers.

After 3 gods, it would be someone like Ronaldo(R9) during 1996-1998 and Cryuff. It was like watching the two gods of football, he was unstoppable. Ronaldinho, Zidane, Kaka, CR7, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Van Basten, Neymar, Rivaldo, and a lot of great players also have impressive peak forms. Also, the older players that I never had a chance to watch played live like Garrincha, Franz, Muller, ADS, etc.

Well summed up

 

[Andrade]

Messi’s peak is the highest peak in football history surely? 91 goals in a year while also being the best dribbler on the planet and one of the best passers of a ball. Say what you want about the quality of team around him, those numbers are a joke in any league or era. He wasn’t even a tap in merchant either. He got some, as you’d have to in order to hit those numbers but a lot of those 91 are brilliant solo goals that most players couldn’t do once a season let alone dozens of times.

Pele 1962

 

[Rossa]

If it’s just for one or two seasons, Kaka is worthy of a shout. Certainly, he was not at the upper echelon but not that far behind either.

As for the VVD, I think you guys are underestimating Matip. Last season he even outperformed VVD. And putting VVD ahead of Rio or Vidic is revisionism. Then you have those teo ludicrous seasons or more by Cannavaro. Actually, thinking about defenders, Cannavaro must be the one if we are talking absolute peak. That world cup!

 

[Josh 76]

If it’s just for one or two seasons, Kaka is worthy of a shout. Certainly, he was not at the upper echelon but not that far behind either.

As for the VVD, I think you guys are underestimating Matip. Last season he even outperformed VVD. And putting VVD ahead of Rio or Vidic is revisionism. Then you have those teo ludicrous seasons or more by Cannavaro. Actually, thinking about defenders, Cannavaro must be the one if we are talking absolute peak. That world cup!

I know it’s going off the subject slightly, but has their ever been a better back 4 nationally wise than Italy.
Maldini , Berasi , Cannavaro, Nesta ?

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

If we are just going by peaks then for me it’s either Ronaldinho 04-06, Kaka 05-07 or Henry 02-06. They destroyed so many teams.

 

[Rossa]

I know it’s going off the subject slightly, but has their ever been a better back 4 nationally wise than Italy.
Maldini , Berasi , Cannavaro, Nesta ?

Quite possibly the best ever. Nesta was better than Cannavaro for me, but that peak season or two from Cannavaro was something else.

 

[Vialli_92]

If we are just going by peaks then for me it’s either Ronaldinho 04-06, Kaka 05-07 or Henry 02-06. They destroyed so many teams.

Love this list. Especially Kakà, he was unplayable between 05-07 hit one amazing peak where nobody could get close to him.

 

[Darkhorsez]

Best
Maradona
Messi

wonder why Best is not mentioned much. He was a sensational player at his peak.

 

[matherto]

R9
Ronaldinho
Messi
Zidane
Ronaldo
Kaka

 

[giorno]

Ok, seeing as any list or opinion that wasn't compiled by me is wrong, i'll give you the honor of the only factually and incontrovertibly correct ranking of the 10 greatest players of all time

Without further ado:
Number 10!!!!!
Marco Van Basten
Number 9!!!!!
Ferenc Puskas
Number 8!!!!!
Ronaldo Luis Nazario Da Lima
Number 7!!!!!
Franz Beckenbauer
Number 6!!!!!!!!
Johan Cruijff
Number 5!!!!!!!
Cristiano Ronaldo Dos Santos Aveiro
Number 4!!!!!!!!!
Alfredo Di Stefano
Number 2!!!!!!!!!
Lionel Messi
Number 2!!!!!!!!!!!
Edson Arantes Do Nascimiento
Number 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Diego Armando Maradona

You are welcome caf

 

[matherto]

Ronaldinho was fun to watch, but he wasn't as effective or devastating.

I don't know about that. He was often providing the skill and pass that preceeded the goal. His games against Milan are the epitome of not getting the assist or goal but being the most effective player on the pitch.

 

[Daydreamer]

If it’s just for one or two seasons, Kaka is worthy of a shout. Certainly, he was not at the upper echelon but not that far behind either.

As for the VVD, I think you guys are underestimating Matip. Last season he even outperformed VVD. And putting VVD ahead of Rio or Vidic is revisionism. Then you have those teo ludicrous seasons or more by Cannavaro. Actually, thinking about defenders, Cannavaro must be the one if we are talking absolute peak. That world cup!

I said I was bowing out, but one last time…

Matip is a decent CB who outperformed VVD last season. But he is no more than that. And that isn’t the time period I was referring to. Post-ACL van Dijk is simply not the same player.

And I’m not saying VVD is a better player than Ferdinand or Vidic. I’m saying his peak was higher. The fact that we agree that BOTH Ferdinand and Vidic are among the finest defenders in the modern era contributes to the point I’m making. They partnered each other and had top class defenders either side.

Evra / Ferdinand / Vidic / Neville
Robertson / van Dijk / Matip / TAA

The defensive capabilities of those back fours are worlds apart.

 

[Theonas]

I thought the entire point of the thread was about an individual's peak leaving longevity out of the equation. I haven't watched many of Baresi's, Moore's or Beckenbauer's games (as I suspect is the case for most people) but I've watched a lot of Ferdinand's and Nesta's. The teams they played in relied on their individual brilliance much less and protected them far more. Milan and United dominated games in a very different way and had much better defenders in their back line. Once again, you could definitely argue that both Nesta and Ferdinand were better players than van Dijk throughout their careers. But that isn't premise of this thread. Unless I've misunderstood it - which is very possible.

I think Van Dijk also benefited greatly from how football pundits and fans especially in England were crying about the death of old school defenders since the retirements of Terry, Rio and Kompany. He stood out and had an impact reminiscent of the greats. For me personally, only creative players can be in this conversation. I don't think roles that are about destroying and nullifying should ever be considered in the same breath as those who create and invent. But if we are going to evaluate defenders, it's really hard to argue against VVD's impact in his first two seasons, transformative which you can't say about many.

 

[Messier1994]

I am too young for Maradonna’s peak, but just my two cents:

*Ronaldo the Older was from my point of view very similar to Mbappe. Wouldn’t put either in the ‘highest peak ability ever’ category. But pretty far up the list. I have never really been inclined to rank guys like Van Basten, Lewandowvski, Benzema, Shevchenko, Papin and the likes at the same level as the rest. Some will say that Van Basten was more special than the rest, but I don’t quite agree.
*Peak Messi was sick. In a way that gets tinted — because for like what 10 years people have blown smoke up his arse. He hasn’t been better than any other really experienced former great player with vision and great touch the last 6-7 years at least. What he did had that — in any way — sets him apart from the elites of the elite was extreme quickness. Since then he has been given a tailor made role with great support. Honestly, the last 5 years, I would say that there is a wide margin between Messi and KDB, still you get constantly attacked with long breakdowns of good plays of Messi describing him as unique.

*Peak Christiano Ronaldo in my opinion is up there with anyone. Honestly, I don’t think peak Messi ever was on quite up there at the same level as peak Ronaldo. Nobody have ever been able to go up alone against a set defense and dribble the pants of everyone of the defenders and score a goal like Messi could.

But his peak ability in that area never quite coincided with elite finishing and play making ability. Barca was insane even without Messi and his stats are great. But you just see a — big — difference when playing for the national team at their absolute peaks between Messi and Ronaldo. Messi could literary disappear and not even contribute. At the same time Ronaldo could singlehandedly win games for Portugal. Was betting together with a friend back at that time trying to save up for a football trip, and we put everything on there being under 5.5 goals in a game Portugal played in against a defensive Sweden and Ronaldo scored a hat-trick winning the game 4-2. Could have scored 5 goals in that game.

*I think it’s ridiculous to — not — mention peak Ronaldinho in the same breath as Messi and C Ronaldo.

You hear stuff like ‘Sure Messi or Ronaldo perhaps didn’t have the flair and artistry of Ronaldinho, but they were better and more effective. That is bull from my point of view. Why?

The La Liga had a — much much — more competitive playing field up until the mid 00s than during Messi’s prime when there were miles between Real, Barca and the rest. The Bosman Ruling came in December 1995. That changed the landscape for the game by giving much much bigger rights to the players. But it wasn’t “implemented” over night. Took a long time before the national leagues adjusted to the inevitable. Between 99 and 04, of the 10 final positions in the Chanpions League, 5 was held by Valencia, Valencia, Leverkusen, Porto and Monaco. Go back another 10 years, IFK Gothenburg could beat both us and Barca in the CL. 10 years later — any non big club making it to the QF is extremely rare and it is basically impossible for a club that is not filthy rich to even remotely compete.

Facts are that during Messi’s prime years, Barcelona was much more dominating during Ronaldinho’s prime. You can’t compare the stats between the two. Ronaldinho is definitely up there with both Messi and C Ronaldo.

 

[Schneckerl]

Great shout about Pele. Most people think 1970 was his peak. 1962-1965 he was on another planet. It’s a shame there isn’t much footage.

From the material available, his peak was likely from 1959-62.
Just way higher performances and output in that timeframe

Extremely unfortunate that he got injured during the '62 WC

 

[Red&Black]

Kaka 06-09.

absolutely magical. may I be so bold as to say Marco van Basten from 89 thru to 92? 26, 31, and 31 goals JUST in the league.

probably the greatest striker ever in that period.

 

[harms]

I know it’s going off the subject slightly, but has their ever been a better back 4 nationally wise than Italy.
Maldini , Berasi , Cannavaro, Nesta ?

It’s a bit of an odd back 4 with 3 center backs. Generally it’s probably closer to Maldini - Baresi - Nesta - Bergomi which, insanely enough, almost happened in real life (Maldini - Baresi - Ferri - Bergomi was their back 4 in 1990).

Their back up 4 isn’t half bad either
Facchetti - Scirea - Cannavaro - Gentile (Burgnich/Zambrotta)