Greg Clarke's "Once in a Generation" FA Reforms; with added racism and sexism

[Vidyoyo]

BAME seems to lump together a bunch of random ethnicities which have no connection to each other beyond being not white. It's little wonder it's not being embraced by people caught by it tbf.

Totally understandable. I learnt a lot from the meeting, which I like to think is the main thing.

It was initially confusing as I usually hear BAME referenced in more positive contexts (e.g., Creative Access helping BAME candidates find positions in underrepresented career areas).

Always learning, I suppose.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Prime example of an older generation person with old views and old stereotypes imprinted in his personality.

We can’t be sure how much he believes those stereotypes but somebody in his position should be well aware of what he is saying and what can cause offence.

Isn't this a stereotype?

One I agree with but still.

 

[saivet]

I doubt he meant anything malicious by it's quite telling that someone in such a position would come out with comments like those. When someone is coming out with these comments subconsciously it makes a mockery that a dinosaur like him is leading initiatives to tackle racism and diversity.

 

[big rons sovereign]

I doubt he meant anything malicious by it's quite telling that someone in such a position would come out with comments like those. When someone is coming out with these comments subconsciously it makes a mockery that a dinosaur like him is leading initiatives to tackle racism and diversity.

Yeah, he's not realised that any chance of being offended will be taken immediately. It's not as if he's shouting about darkies and fuzzywuzzies like Alf Garnett, but that's modern society.
I remember books when I was little where black people were portrayed as having bones through their noses, wore loin cloths and carried spears. We've come a long way since then.

 

[Tibs]

In what context?

Manchester United have a mix of players, some are British, European, African, Asian. Some are white, some are black/coloured/players of colour

What is the correct phrase?

 

[fergieisold]

Or maybe he just holds dated, bigoted views. This is the guy who dismissed institutional racism as 'fluff', remember. He should have gotten the axe for that.

There can be some truth in stereotypes, but it's more often than exaggerated and twisted with zero context. Worse still much of what they are based on are decades, if not centuries out of date.
Re the gypsy comments, let's not perpetuate stereotypes in this thread.

agreed, my previous point about a guy in his position not saying this kind of stuff is that it is a lot more damaging. Privately with friends people say all sorts of weird shit but it isn't the same platform.

Is there any video of his comments? I still can't quite believe he actually came out with a whole range of these comments! Has he been hiding under a rock the past 10 years?

 

[mancan92]

'Of colour' and 'coloured' literally mean the same thing. It's like saying 'of Spain' or 'Spanish'.

So clearly the literal meaning of implying that non-white people have 'colour' isn't offensive. How about the context in which he used it? Was that derogatory? I don't think so.

This is dumb shit. You used to hear 'coloured' a lot growing up, back when it was unacceptable to say black. Changing people's use of language is difficult, he shouldn't be fired for it.

Perhaps people should just be called what they are whether it's Black, Asian, Indian or just 'ethnic minorities'. Clearly people can't keep up with these terms proliferated by the identity politics crowd (BAME and people of colour).

You have a few here who have explained the difference yet choose to ignore it. Seems some just want to not learn at all

 

[fergieisold]

Manchester United have a mix of players, some are British, European, African, Asian. Some are white, some are black/coloured/players of colour

What is the correct phrase?

But I don't get why you would need to refer to our black players?

 

[Tibs]

But I don't get why you would need to refer to our black players?

It's just an example to help me learn what the correct term would be

 

[RUCK4444]

Isn't this a stereotype?

One I agree with but still.

Hah I suppose it is in a way. But then again there are genuinely many people of his age shaped by a totally different era.

Some of which still use old terms/phrases that are politically incorrect but do so innocently, others unfortunately never shake the old stereotypical views sadly.

I have hope that by and large that his is the last generation who grew up learning stereotypical views from their parents. One can hope.

 

[Sylar]

It really baffles me why some people come to a football forum and ask questions on sensitive topics such as race & sexuality, without going to google and doing basic research themselves.

I was actually thinking this initially, as ive seen so many posts (not just on here but on social media) complaining about what is and isnt acceptable and why.
But lets be honest, a quick google search has so many articles (on why coloured isnt acceptable, the difference between coloured and POC and related).

I think its just that, 'some' people dont want to do the work to educate themselves and would rather use it (the platform) as a way to make a complaint that things are getting harder for them or how it was 'acceptable' back in their day (and theres a difference between widely used and acceptable).
Im saying 'some' cos lets be honest, some will deny it...

Also Greg Clarke is a dinosaur and FA and those 'governing' football need changes, badly. IMO should be independent but I guess thats a whole different thing.

 

[fergieisold]

It's just an example to help me learn what the correct term would be

Use whatever you like, along as you aren't a racist I'm sure you'll be fine!

 

[Eugenius]

To echo some other posters, it's deeply disturbing to see Clarke and some other posters in this thread excusing themselves by their ignorance (eg I didn't realise that wasn't acceptable anymore) and rather than take it upon themselves to educate themselves are choosing to revel in that ignorance.

To not understand why describing someone as 'coloured' is offensive you either must have extremely low emotional intelligence or live in a parallel universe to the people on the other end of that term.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I reckon he wanted out, no one makes that many gaffs in one go on camera at an important meeting. He knew what he was doing.

You could just....you know...resign. State health reasons etc.There are easier ways than bring a ton of shit down on yourself

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Yeah, he's not realised that any chance of being offended will be taken immediately. It's not as if he's shouting about darkies and fuzzywuzzies like Alf Garnett, but that's modern society.
I remember books when I was little where black people were portrayed as having bones through their noses, wore loin cloths and carried spears. We've come a long way since then.

Seriously? I have to laugh or I'll cry

 

[big rons sovereign]

Seriously? I have to laugh or I'll cry

Why?

 

[micmac]

Weird....I am a person of colour or a coloured person....I’ve experienced racism from other “persons of colour or coloured persons” but I never got offended or thought it was wrong if I was called a coloured person....I am more offended when I’m filling out a job application and they ask if I’m a visible minority and they don’t have my race in the selection.

Nowadays cancel culture has everyone so uptight and looking for every little reason to point a finger and call somebody a racist!

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Why?

Because when you still have people in positions of power and I include our dear PM using derogatory terms with impunity, it's rather clear to me that we haven't. And don't get me started on the rank and file out there still referring to Asians as Pakis, black people as niggers, Jews as Yids etc

 

[villain]

I was actually thinking this initially, as ive seen so many posts (not just on here but on social media) complaining about what is and isnt acceptable and why.
But lets be honest, a quick google search has so many articles (on why coloured isnt acceptable, the difference between coloured and POC and related).

I think its just that, 'some' people dont want to do the work to educate themselves and would rather use it (the platform) as a way to make a complaint that things are getting harder for them or how it was 'acceptable' back in their day (and theres a difference between widely used and acceptable).
Im saying 'some' cos lets be honest, some will deny it...

Also Greg Clarke is a dinosaur and FA and those 'governing' football need changes, badly. IMO should be independent but I guess thats a whole different thing.

This is precisely the issue.
It means that those same people only get educated if there are volunteers willing to do the labour for them, for free. As soon as those people don't want to (because quite frankly, they shouldn't have to) you end up with a portion of society willing to remain ignorant on important topics such as these.
Which is precisely why there's so many people saying 'i can't keep up with these changes - what is correct?', the real answer is they don't actually have an understanding of the issue at hand.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Because when you still have people in positions of power and I include our dear PM using derogatory terms with impunity, it's rather clear to me that we haven't. And don't get me started on the rank and file out there still referring to Asians as Pakis, black people as niggers, Jews as Yids etc

Righto. Nothings changed. Everything is shit and we're all racist.
I'm off to get my pointy white hood.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Righto. Nothings changed. Everything is shit and we're all racist.
I'm off to get my pointy white hood.

Ahh bless! Just like your white privilege to get offended

 

[altodevil]

I've read some his quotes and they don't seem that bad?

 

[Posh Red]

Ahh bless! Just like your white privilege to get offended

So ironic how easily offended some people are, yet they’re happy to throw around terms like ‘snowflake’ without a care.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

So ironic how easily offended some people are, yet they’re happy to throw around terms like ‘snowflake’ without a care.

Has to be the worst term "newer" term around

However I guess it does serve the purpose of distinguishing anyone who uses it in a serious context as a moron... so there's that.

 

[Posh Red]

Has to be the worst term "newer" term around

However I guess it does serve the purpose of distinguishing anyone who uses it in a serious context as a moron... so there's that.

This is true. Was discussing with a friend last night, and we both agreed we would usually stop listening to anyone that used that phrase

 

[big rons sovereign]

Ahh bless! Just like your white privilege to get offended

What a total kop out.
Offended? Try again.
You know nothing about me. Instead of arguing the actual point, you've taken slinging mud and using racial stereotypes.
Opinion isn't fact pal.

 

[Dorris]

He shouldn’t have said it, but is it not worrying that a person can lose their career over a mistake like this, which for me shows an out of touch individual rather than a racist one. People seem to be one ignorant but innocent word away from having their lives shattered. Aren’t there better solutions?

 

[Bale Bale Bale]

To not understand why describing someone as 'coloured' is offensive you either must have extremely low emotional intelligence or live in a parallel universe to the people on the other end of that term.

I think it's more to not understand the difference between "coloured" and "of colour" as on the face of it the two appear to equate to the same thing. Also as seen in this thread, even some people "of colour" don't see the problem with someone saying "coloured" and that it's more about the intent behind the words. Personally neither sound right to me so will refrain from using them, it probably won't be long until "of colour" is deemed to be incorrect anyway.

 

[Lennon7]

I think it's more to not understand the difference between "coloured" and "of colour" as on the face of it the two appear to equate to the same thing. Also as seen in this thread, even some people "of colour" don't see the problem with someone saying "coloured" and that it's more about the intent behind the words. Personally neither sound right to me so will refrain from using them, it probably won't be long until "of colour" is deemed to be incorrect anyway.

The reason is because no middle aged Union Jack tattooed gammon has ever sat in a pub and said something along the lines of “these people of colour are taking over this town”. “Coloured people” has racist connotations, that’s fecking it. End of discussion.

Those arguing that are the same people that think missing out the ‘stani’ in Pakistani is just an innocent abbreviation too.

Oh and to address your last point, these things are determined by the people who experience the use of these phrases in a negative context week in week out - so if they then deem something to be racist because they’ve heard it used towards them in a derogatory way then yes, over time that thing will become racist.

 

[Eugenius]

I think it's more to not understand the difference between "coloured" and "of colour" as on the face of it the two appear to equate to the same thing. Also as seen in this thread, even some people "of colour" don't see the problem with someone saying "coloured" and that it's more about the intent behind the words. Personally neither sound right to me so will refrain from using them, it probably won't be long until "of colour" is deemed to be incorrect anyway.

I hear what you're saying. But at the same time one expression has been widely deemed as racist for decades and is not used at all in any public domain. The other is used contemporarily (albeit infrequently), and has been used by actual 'people of colour'. You can argue about the relative appropriateness of both phrases, but ignorance in conflating use of the two is not acceptable. On the subject of intent - I doubt he's meant offence but there the issue is the wilful indifference and ignorance in taking basic steps to avoid stuff which is obviously offensive (in the same way manslaughter is a crime, to draw an analogy).

I say this as a black person who also does not like or use the phrase 'person of colour'.

 

[mancan92]

He shouldn’t have said it, but is it not worrying that a person can lose their career over a mistake like this, which for me shows an out of touch individual rather than a racist one. People seem to be one ignorant but innocent word away from having their lives shattered. Aren’t there better solutions?

Yeah there are better solutions. For example people educating themselves so they don't offend people. Maybe if your going for a top level management role do research on what's going to offend your audience and what's not. Probably don't go into a meeting on diversity with the government with nothing but phases that were OK 30 years ago.

 

[mancan92]

I think it's more to not understand the difference between "coloured" and "of colour" as on the face of it the two appear to equate to the same thing. Also as seen in this thread, even some people "of colour" don't see the problem with someone saying "coloured" and that it's more about the intent behind the words. Personally neither sound right to me so will refrain from using them, it probably won't be long until "of colour" is deemed to be incorrect anyway.

You've already had people in this thread explain clearly why one is bad and one is not. If you don't understand its because you don't want to understand.

Secondly black people are not a monolith just because your friend says its ok to say the N word doesn't mean you should say it to anyone else. Doesn't also mean its not hugely offensive to the black community as a whole. Think simply was the word, term or phrase used to oppressed or used during a time of oppression against a certain people. Then it is probably offensive.

 

[Sylar]

What a total kop out.
Offended? Try again.
You know nothing about me. Instead of arguing the actual point, you've taken slinging mud and using racial stereotypes.
Opinion isn't fact pal.

Though your actual initial response was a 'kop out'.

@Inigo Montoya explained why he thinks we havent come 'a long way since'. 'Long way' is relative to the person.
If you think major people in positions of power coming out with offensive terms (and then being elected after the fact doesnt say something about society, not sure what else to add)

But from that point, your response was rather blunt sarcasm not taking the conversation seriously and coming off offended that somebody disagreed with you.

I think it's more to not understand the difference between "coloured" and "of colour" as on the face of it the two appear to equate to the same thing. Also as seen in this thread, even some people "of colour" don't see the problem with someone saying "coloured" and that it's more about the intent behind the words. Personally neither sound right to me so will refrain from using them, it probably won't be long until "of colour" is deemed to be incorrect anyway.

Which is a fair point, but then what actual research has been done to find out the differences.
I dont mean this aimed at you (or just at you) but what have people who dont get the difference done to find out, except posting on this forum? Have they google searched it or asked the relevant people before questioning it?

I could understand if somebody said, I tried to find out but couldnt find anything so im asking on here.
or if they are asking here as first port of call as they visit this site more than anyother place, fair enough. But then its odd (and this isnt just related to this forum), when people try and educate, there is pushback to not accepting or not willing to accept.

 

[Jeppers7]

As a mixed race male, honestly I think society is crippling itself. There’s such a desire to be offended by things that were never meant to be offensive, genuinely. There’s talk about inclusion apparently by grouping even more people together and putting them in a bigger box with a different label.

There will never be true equality, there will always be elements of racism in ALL races because it’s human nature. We group naturally and are naturally wary of things which are different. We have more empathy for things we understand or relate to.

Until a person is just a person, regardless of any other element, the rest is just futile.

I’d take offence when the person remarking is being offensive intently. Taking offence for someone not referring to me in the way in which society might chose to label me at any given juncture is pathetic. I’m more offended by modern terminology.

 

[NotThatSoph]

'Of colour' and 'coloured' literally mean the same thing. It's like saying 'of Spain' or 'Spanish'.

So clearly the literal meaning of implying that non-white people have 'colour' isn't offensive. How about the context in which he used it? Was that derogatory? I don't think so.

This is dumb shit. You used to hear 'coloured' a lot growing up, back when it was unacceptable to say black. Changing people's use of language is difficult, he shouldn't be fired for it.

Perhaps people should just be called what they are whether it's Black, Asian, Indian or just 'ethnic minorities'. Clearly people can't keep up with these terms proliferated by the identity politics crowd (BAME and people of colour).

You should go around calling people negroes. After all, negro means black, and black is okay.

Are you going to?

 

[Eugenius]

'Of colour' and 'coloured' literally mean the same thing. It's like saying 'of Spain' or 'Spanish'.

So clearly the literal meaning of implying that non-white people have 'colour' isn't offensive. How about the context in which he used it? Was that derogatory? I don't think so.

This is dumb shit. You used to hear 'coloured' a lot growing up, back when it was unacceptable to say black. Changing people's use of language is difficult, he shouldn't be fired for it.

Perhaps people should just be called what they are whether it's Black, Asian, Indian or just 'ethnic minorities'. Clearly people can't keep up with these terms proliferated by the identity politics crowd (BAME and people of colour).

I hate to break it to you, but there's a lot things that used to be acceptable in the past that aren't any more. And that you are also not the arbiter of what is or isn't offensive to people actually from ethnic minority backgrounds.

 

[hobbers]

No amount of self-research is going to resolve 'person of colour', or 'BAME' for that matter, as sensible terms that are useful in any situation.

And it's somewhat understandable that antiquated but often well-meaning people might get mixed up between two semantically identical phrases by accident.

 

[londonredmaniac]

Ahh bless! Just like your white privilege to get offended

Hehe

 

[DOTA]

No amount of self-research is going to resolve 'person of colour', or 'BAME' for that matter, as sensible terms that are useful in any situation.

And it's somewhat understandable that antiquated but often well-meaning people might get mixed up between two semantically identical phrases by accident.

And it's good that these people aren't chair of the FA.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Though your actual initial response was a 'kop out'.

@Inigo Montoya explained why he thinks we havent come 'a long way since'. 'Long way' is relative to the person.
If you think major people in positions of power coming out with offensive terms (and then being elected after the fact doesnt say something about society, not sure what else to add)

But from that point, your response was rather blunt sarcasm not taking the conversation seriously and coming off offended that somebody disagreed with you.



Which is a fair point, but then what actual research has been done to find out the differences.
I dont mean this aimed at you (or just at you) but what have people who dont get the difference done to find out, except posting on this forum? Have they google searched it or asked the relevant people before questioning it?

I could understand if somebody said, I tried to find out but couldnt find anything so im asking on here.
or if they are asking here as first port of call as they visit this site more than anyother place, fair enough. But then its odd (and this isnt just related to this forum), when people try and educate, there is pushback to not accepting or not willing to accept.

At no point have I come off offended, or even mentioned being offended. It's just assumed by by senor Montoya and now yourself. Which in itself is part of the problem.
To be fobbed off with "oh you're just showing your white privilege" is utter Bollox. There's no argument, no discussion, it's a case of my opinion is final.
The whole thing is a minefield and to just dismiss every counterpoint as white privilege or racism sets a dangerous precedent.
The guy should have thought before speaking yes, did he intend to come across as offensive? Probably not.
Boris however, is just a horrible arsehole who I doubt gives a shit about anybody other than himself regardless of creed.
How anybody voted for that prick I'll never understand.