Guaranteed Entertainment vs Guaranteed Success

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
42,100
What matters more to you?

In a hypothetical scenario, you have two choices :

A. Manchester United are guaranteed to top score in the PL for the next 5 years. You don't know where we'll finish in the league, but we'll say it'll be anywhere in the top 5. We might win cup(s) or we might not.

B. Manchester are guaranteed to finish in the top 2 for the next 5 years. We'll win at least 1 title in that period. We will be guaranteed to win at least 1 cup competition in that period of time.

Which one of the two choices is more exciting for you as a fan of the club?

I would personally take A easily. To me thats the most exciting journey. Knowing my club will provide me entertainment on a journey that may or may not deliver success.
 

Gwhizz

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
106
Those scenarios are too imbalanced. Scenario A sounds like we have a shot at winning something at least whereas Scenario B gives us a 1/5 chance of winning something whilst delivering an inferior product from a watchability stand point. A is the obvious choice because I simply don't like those odds for B. If however you told me that scenario B delivered maybe 2 leagues and 2 cups within those 5 years I'd take the trophies. Entertainment is great but end results are what matters and goes into the history books
 

Web of Bissaka

Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
8,553
Location
Losing to Comeback Winning!
A - easy choice.

Personally I watch football to get entertainment and made my day better (life is challenging already..), winnings cups are just less priority really. It helps by the fact that I've seen humongous volume of trophies won by the club already, so it's an easy choice.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,780
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Happy poor person or an unhappy rich person?
 

Murray3007

Full Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
1,746
would be A for me, players at United and any premiership club should look top quality, ours look like they would struggle in the pub league
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
17,158
A.

If we are top scorers, chances are we'll also be very good.
 

yumtum

DUX' bumchum
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
7,133
Location
Wales
After a decade of pretty boring football, a bit of entertainment from a game designed to be entertaining would be nice.
 

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
42,100
Those scenarios are too imbalanced. Scenario A sounds like we have a shot at winning something at least whereas Scenario B gives us a 1/5 chance of winning something whilst delivering an inferior product from a watchability stand point. A is the obvious choice because I simply don't like those odds for B. If however you told me that scenario B delivered maybe 2 leagues and 2 cups within those 5 years I'd take the trophies. Entertainment is great but end results are what matters and goes into the history books
B gives you 100% chance of success because you are guaranteed to win at least one title, and you also actually don't know the quality of the product (similar to how you don't know where in the top 5 you'll finish in the league for scenario A).
 

GlasgowCeltic

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
5,370
Option A could easily be Arsenal under the last years of Wenger, a laughing stock to many here. Option B Fergies Utd in the zombie football era, title winners.
 

Samid

He's no Bilal Ilyas Jhandir
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
49,610
Location
Oslo, Norway
B. We need to start winning again or we'll be stuck in no man's land for the next decade while the dippers knock us off our perch.
 

tenpoless

No 6-pack, just 2Pac
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
16,382
Location
Ole's ipad
Supports
4-4-2 classic
Well winning in itself is also entertaining. Ask the chumpions. They went on and on about class and dignity, not trophies but once they became chumpions they abandoned their 'philosophy' almost immediately. After this should they fall they will be not having it, not having that entertaintment is all that matters. I can see you thinking the same if we win the PL/CL.

The joy. So much happiness.
 

Chipper

Adulterer.
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
5,699
A because 1 title and 1 cup in 5 years isn't that successful. I know you've put at least 1 title and 1 cup so it could be more but in option A you have a cast iron gurantee of being top scorers every year for each of the 5 years.

I'd be very surprised if there was a single 5 year span in the PL era where the top scorer didn't win the title anyway so would back top scorers for 5 seasons in a row to win at least 1 title too if not more.
 

Chipper

Adulterer.
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
5,699
A because 1 title and 1 cup in 5 years isn't that successful. I know you've put at least 1 title and 1 cup so it could be more but in option A you have a cast iron gurantee of being top scorers every year for each of the 5 years.

I'd be very surprised if there was a single 5 year span in the PL era where the top scorer didn't win the title anyway so would back top scorers for 5 seasons in a row to win at least 1 title too if not more.
Breaking the stats out, hopefully I got these right:

League
The top scorers in the league have won 18 out of 28 titles in the Premier League era (64.3%)

The most titles the top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 5 (09/10-13/14)

The fewest titles the top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 2 (12/13-16/17 & 14/15-18/19)

The longest winning streak for top scorers is 5 (09/10-13/14)

The longest run without a title for the top scorers is 3 (14/15-16/17)

Cups
The league's top scorers have won 15 cups in 28 seasons at a ratio of 0.54 cups per season.

The most cups the league's top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 5 (15/16-19/20)

The fewest cups the league's top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 1 (4 times - 92/93-96/97, 93/94-97/98, 08/09-12/13, 10/11-14/15)

The most years in succession the league's tops scorers won a cup is 3 (17/18-19/20)

The longest run without a cup for the league's top scorers is 3 (92/93-94/95 & 10/11-12/13)

At least 1 cup was won by the league's top scorers in 13 out of 28 seasons (46.4%) so no cups in 15/28 (53.6%)

Combined
During the most successful run of league title wins for the top scorers (09/10-13/14) they won 5 league titles + 1 FA Cup and 1 League Cup

During the the least successful run for the top scorers (12/13-16/17) they won 2 league titles + 2 league cups

The league's top scorer either won the league, a cup or both in 22 of 28 seasons (78.6%) and were trophyless 6 times (21.4%).

Bottom line
It has to be A. The worst the top scorers have done is 2 league titles and 2 League cups in any given 5 year spell. It's not guaranteed like option B because who knows, we could set a new worst, but I'd have to fancy us to get at least 1 title and 1 cup which is option B and we'd be very likely to do better. We might even win all 5 titles by being top scorers just like Chelsea, United and City did between us from 09/10-13/14. The guaranteed entertainment option almost guarantees us more success than the guaranteed success option just as long as we don't buck the trend and become a statistical outlier.

Edit: Getting even nerdier, if the chance of winning the title is 64.3% for the top scorers, the chance of winning zero titles in 5 years of being top scorers is 0.357 x 0.357 x 0.357 x 0.357 x 0.357 = 0.0058 x 100 = 0.58% (if I've done that right :nervous:). Top scorers will therefore win at least 1 league title 99.42% of the time in any given 5 year period assuming PL trends continue.

Season
Top scorers (goals)
Title win?
Cup wins?
1992/93​
Blackburn (68)​
No​
0​
1993/94​
Newcastle (82)​
No​
0​
1994/95​
Blackburn (80)​
Yes​
0​
1995/96​
United (73)​
Yes​
1 (FA)​
1996/97​
United (76)​
Yes​
0​
1997/98​
United (73)​
No​
0​
1998/99​
United (80)​
Yes​
2 (CL,FA)​
1999/00​
United (97)​
Yes​
0*​
2000/01​
United (79)​
Yes​
0​
2001/02​
Arsenal (79)​
Yes​
1 (FA)​
2002/03​
Arsenal (85)​
No​
1 (FA)​
2003/04​
Arsenal (73)​
Yes​
0​
2004/05​
Arsenal (87)​
No​
1 (FA)​
2005/06​
Chelsea/United (72)​
Yes​
1 (LC)**​
2006/07​
United (83)​
Yes​
0​
2007/08​
United (80)​
Yes​
1 (CL)​
2008/09​
Liverpool (77)​
No​
0​
2009/10​
Chelsea (103)​
Yes​
1 (FA)​
2010/11​
United (78)​
Yes​
0​
2011/12​
City (93)​
Yes​
0​
2012/13​
United (86)​
Yes​
0​
2013/14​
City (102)​
Yes​
1 (LC)​
2014/15​
City (83)​
No​
0​
2015/16​
City (71)​
No​
1 (LC)​
2016/17​
Spurs (86)​
No​
0​
2017/18​
City (106)​
Yes​
1 (LC)​
2018/19​
City (95)​
Yes​
2 (FA, LC)​
2019/20​
City (102)​
No​
1 (LC)​
* United didn't enter the FA Cup, did win the inter-continental cup but I'm putting that as a 0
** Joint top scorers, Chelsea won the title but no Cups, United won the League Cup but no title
 
Last edited:

Sylar

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
40,525
If were allowed back into the stadiums, and im going to the game, A easily.
Ive gone to way too many matches at OT (esp Post fergie) where its been a slog to get to cos you know its gonna be a slog during the 90 minutes. Not even nail biting stuff, but just boring stuff and feels like a chore.
 

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
42,100
Breaking the stats out, hopefully I got these right:

League
The top scorers in the league have won 18 out of 28 titles in the Premier League era (64.3%)

The most titles the top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 5 (09/10-13/14)

The fewest titles the top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 2 (12/13-16/17 & 14/15-18/19)

The longest winning streak for top scorers is 5 (09/10-13/14)

The longest run without a title for the top scorers is 3 (14/15-16/17)

Cups
The league's top scorers have won 15 cups in 28 seasons at a ratio of 0.54 cups per season.

The most cups the league's top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 5 (15/16-19/20)

The fewest cups the league's top scorers have won in any given 5 year period is 1 (4 times - 92/93-96/97, 93/94-97/98, 08/09-12/13, 10/11-14/15)

The most years in succession the league's tops scorers won a cup is 3 (17/18-19/20)

The longest run without a cup for the league's top scorers is 3 (92/93-94/95 & 10/11-12/13)

At least 1 cup was won by the league's top scorers in 13 out of 28 seasons (46.4%) so no cups in 15/28 (53.6%)

Combined
During the most successful run of league title wins for the top scorers (09/10-13/14) they won 5 league titles + 1 FA Cup and 1 League Cup

During the the least successful run for the top scorers (12/13-16/17) they won 2 league titles + 2 league cups

The league's top scorer either won the league, a cup or both in 22 of 28 seasons (78.6%) and were trophyless 6 times (21.4%).

Bottom line
It has to be A. The worst the top scorers have done is 2 league titles and 2 League cups in any given 5 year spell. It's not guaranteed like option B because who knows, we could set a new worst, but I'd have to fancy us to get at least 1 title and 1 cup which is option B and we'd be very likely to do better. We might even win all 5 titles by being top scorers just like Chelsea, United and City did between us from 09/10-13/14. The guaranteed entertainment option almost guarantees us more success than the guaranteed success option just as long as we don't buck the trend and become a statistical outlier.

Edit: Getting even nerdier, if the chance of winning the title is 64.3% for the top scorers, the chance of winning zero titles in 5 years of being top scorers is 0.357 x 0.357 x 0.357 x 0.357 x 0.357 = 0.0058 x 100 = 0.58% (if I've done that right :nervous:). Top scorers will therefore win at least 1 league title 99.42% of the time in any given 5 year period assuming PL trends continue.

Season
Top scorers (goals)
Title win?
Cup wins?
1992/93​
Blackburn (68)​
No​
0​
1993/94​
Newcastle (82)​
No​
0​
1994/95​
Blackburn (80)​
Yes​
0​
1995/96​
United (73)​
Yes​
1 (FA)​
1996/97​
United (76)​
Yes​
0​
1997/98​
United (73)​
No​
0​
1998/99​
United (80)​
Yes​
2 (CL,FA)​
1999/00​
United (97)​
Yes​
0*​
2000/01​
United (79)​
Yes​
0​
2001/02​
Arsenal (79)​
Yes​
1 (FA)​
2002/03​
Arsenal (85)​
No​
1 (FA)​
2003/04​
Arsenal (73)​
Yes​
0​
2004/05​
Arsenal (87)​
No​
1 (FA)​
2005/06​
Chelsea/United (72)​
Yes​
1 (LC)**​
2006/07​
United (83)​
Yes​
0​
2007/08​
United (80)​
Yes​
1 (CL)​
2008/09​
Liverpool (77)​
No​
0​
2009/10​
Chelsea (103)​
Yes​
1 (FA)​
2010/11​
United (78)​
Yes​
0​
2011/12​
City (93)​
Yes​
0​
2012/13​
United (86)​
Yes​
0​
2013/14​
City (102)​
Yes​
1 (LC)​
2014/15​
City (83)​
No​
0​
2015/16​
City (71)​
No​
1 (LC)​
2016/17​
Spurs (86)​
No​
0​
2017/18​
City (106)​
Yes​
1 (LC)​
2018/19​
City (95)​
Yes​
2 (FA, LC)​
2019/20​
City (102)​
No​
1 (LC)​
* United didn't enter the FA Cup, did win the inter-continental cup but I'm putting that as a 0
** Joint top scorers, Chelsea won the title but no Cups, United won the League Cup but no title
Well done, good post.