Had we swapped the timings of the Bruno and AWB transfers...

[Skills]

How many points better off would we be?

What I mean is, had we signed in the summer and then signed AWB in January. Obviously an attacker is far more valuable to a teams fortunes than a pure defender, and especially considering the way the way the first half of the season panned out with injuries.

Would we have converted more of our our draws into wins than losses?

 

[Pexbo]

9 or perhaps 5.

I don’t actually know

 

[devilish]

Both were essential players. We couldn't afford starting the season with just Dalot and an ancient Young as much as we shouldn't have started the season without another creative CM to relieve Pogba. The biggest mistake United made was spending 80m in cash in Bruce erm Maguire. Don't take me wrong, Maguire is decent but he's not worth 80m. Actually he's worth half of that. So what United should have done is laughed off Leicester's valuation and then move on to our next target. Then we would have had the money to buy Bruno as well

 

[roonster09]

I don't know, maybe Bruno would have been injured in the very first game. Who knows.

 

[M Bison]

Both were essential players. We couldn't afford starting the season with just Dalot and an ancient Young as much as we shouldn't have started the season without another creative CM to relieve Pogba. The biggest mistake United made was spending 80m in cash in Bruce erm Maguire. Don't take me wrong, Maguire is decent but he's not worth 80m. Actually he's worth half of that.

Agree re Maguire, looks anything but an 80m player. However, i think the continuity and him being fit for the majority of the season has been very valuable.

 

[Skills]

Both were essential players. We couldn't afford starting the season with just Dalot and an ancient Young as much as we shouldn't have started the season without another creative CM to relieve Pogba. The biggest mistake United made was spending 80m in cash in Bruce erm Maguire. Don't take me wrong, Maguire is decent but he's not worth 80m. Actually he's worth half of that. So what United should have done is laughed off Leicester's valuation and then move on to our next target. Then we would have had the money to buy Bruno as well

But one is quite obviously more essential than the other?

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Remember we had Young at that time so he'll be our main RB.

Weren't Shaw had fitness problems early season? FB will be our weak point.

And Williams is a total unknown at that time, easier for him to break in with AWB and Mag providing a more stable defense.

 

[Skills]

Remember we had Young at that time so he'll be our main RB.

Weren't Shaw had fitness problems early season? FB will be our weak point.

And Williams is a total unknown at that time, easier for him to break in with AWB and Mag providing a more stable defense.

It would've been Young and Dalot for half a season. Still much better than Perreira or Lingard being our main source of creativity

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Would we have converted more of our our draws into wins than losses?

Confident we will, but only many wins by small margins 2-1, 3-2, 4-3, etc.

Not the kind of spankings we're dishing out to teams easily post-Bruno.

 

[Skills]

I don't know, maybe Bruno would have been injured in the very first game. Who knows.

Well yes. Had we signed Kylian Mbappe last summer and if he had a career ending injury in the first game - Dan James would prove to be a more valuable signing.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

It would've been Young and Dalot for half a season. Still much better than Perreira or Lingard being our main source of creativity

I remember he's also out first half of this season.

I imagine we'll have to deploy Bailly or Tuanzebe to RB, with Young at LB.
Either that or 3-5-2 system switch becoming main formation with James at WB.

 

[Kostov]

Both were essential players. We couldn't afford starting the season with just Dalot and an ancient Young as much as we shouldn't have started the season without another creative CM to relieve Pogba. The biggest mistake United made was spending 80m in cash in Bruce erm Maguire. Don't take me wrong, Maguire is decent but he's not worth 80m. Actually he's worth half of that.

Erm, without Maguire we would be absolute bonkers in defense. The mistake was made when we didn't buy him for 20m back from Hull. Of course he is not worth 80m, nobody is.

Regarding the swap AWB/Bruno, It was absolutely stupid to go into the season without reinforcements to the midfield. Every sane mind would have told you that we are lacking in that are yet we bought nobody. Same is going to happen this summer, if we don't buy a RW and a CDM who are musts but we also need a back up CAM and a new CB who can replace Lindelof.

 

[devilish]

Agree re Maguire, looks anything but an 80m player. However, i think the continuity and him being fit for the majority of the season has been very valuable.

Look I don't want to bash Maguire. If I did, I would compare him to lets say Prunier or the ancient Blanc SAF bought. Instead I am comparing him to Bruce who was quite a valuable CB for us although he wasn't WC. Maguire is decent but 80m was far too much for a player who lacks pace and who needs a top CB alongside him. I also think that Ole had mismanaged the defence as a whole. Smalling for example should have been preferred to Lindelof and once AWB was signed, Shaw should have been sold in preference to a LB who can actually go forward with the ball. Our current defence is made up of 4 defensive defenders while our CBs and DMs are possibly the slowest in football (Maguire-Lindelof-Matic)

 

[Wumminator]

It wouldn’t have made much difference.
Because we still would have had Pogba/Shaw/Martial/Rashford/McTominay out for months and we still would have had Greenwood who needed a bit of time to adapt.
Bruno has been great since coming in. But he hasn’t single handedly produced this team. It has been Ole having the benefit of having a full team, something he hasn’t had all year.

 

[meamth]

Defensive back bone is the core to successful sides.

You build the house brick by brick from the ground up.

I won't trade Bruno for AWB early in the season. Our Defensive stability and AWB development is more valuable than points we could've gotten.

 

[devilish]

Erm, without Maguire we would be absolute bonkers in defense. The mistake was made when we didn't buy him for 20m back from Hull. Of course he is not worth 80m, nobody is.

Regarding the swap AWB/Bruno, It was absolutely stupid to go into the season without reinforcements to the midfield. Every sane mind would have told you that we are lacking in that are yet we bought nobody. Same is going to happen this summer, if we don't buy a RW and a CDM who are musts but we also need a back up CAM and a new CB who can replace Lindelof.

No we wouldn't. Apart from last season were everything went tits up, our current goal conceded stats (33) are worse then those in 2017-2018 (28) and 2016-2017 (29). Our stats are 1 goal better then that of Manchester City's with their disastrous defence and Leicester who sold Maguire to us. A top CB was needed but he wasn't essential, certainly not an 80m signing with zero pace who would fit in alongside Matic (slow) and Lindelof (slow)

 

[Sassy Colin]

Had things been different, things would have been different.

 

[Ekeke]

Maybe 3 points

AWB was our best signing before Bruno

 

[roonster09]

Well yes. Had we signed Kylian Mbappe last summer and if he had a career ending injury in the first game - Dan James would prove to be a more valuable signing.

Of course, that's true. Carrer ending injury means player is of no use. I mean how can anyone answer these hypothetical scenarios. What would have happened had we played Dalot as RB when he wasn't good enough. AWB played some of this best games in big games, maybe without his defensive stability, whole team would have crumbled as attackers, midfielders gets nervous when ball is near our box, which means they might have scared to play their natural game, lose possession.

 

[FromTheBench]

I don't think it was either/or in the summer.

If we were able to afford Bruno in January then would have afforded him in the summer too.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Martial
Rashford - Bruno - James
Fred - McT
Young - Maguire - Lindelof - Bailly
DDG

Subs: Greenwood, Lingard, Mata, Pereira, Williams, Jones, Romero
Reserve: Chong, Garner, Matic, Grant
​

Yeah, I don't like our chances, too weak.
Rashford and McT will also be out soon.

But I think we'll be competing vs Chelsea, behind Leicester but slightly ahead than the rest.
So... not much difference.

 

[Kostov]

No we wouldn't. Apart from last season were everything went tits up, our current goal conceded stats (33) are worse then those in 2017-2018 (28) and 2016-2017 (29). Our stats are 1 goal better then that of Manchester City's with their disastrous defence and Leicester who sold Maguire to us. A top CB was needed but he wasn't essential, certainly not an 80m signing with zero pace who would fit in alongside Matic (slow) and Lindelof (slow)

You are gonna compare the stats for goals conceded from Mourinho's seasons to prove a point when he actually didn't even have Maguire? You also fail to mention we also have the 3rd bed defense in the league, and we were absolutely shit at times this season in our general play. I'd say Maguire has had a very good impact and has improved our defense for anyone who wants to see it. Whether he is worth 80m is completely another thing.

 

[Skills]

Defensive back bone is the core to successful sides.

You build the house brick by brick from the ground up.

I won't trade Bruno for AWB early in the season. Our Defensive stability and AWB development is more valuable than points we could've gotten.

False. The best two teams in the country, build their houses with their attacks first. Then they plugged the holes at the back with reinforcements in defence.

 

[Skills]

Martial
Rashford - Bruno - James
Fred - McT
Young - Maguire - Lindelof - Bailly
DDG

Subs: Greenwood, Lingard, Mata, Pereira, Williams, Jones, Romero
Reserve: Chong, Garner, Matic, Grant
​

Yeah, I don't like our chances, too weak.
Rashford and McT will also be out soon.

But I think we'll be competing vs Chelsea, behind Leicester but slightly ahead than the rest.
So... not much difference.

That still looks much better than:

Martial
Rashford - Lingard/Perreira - James
Fred - McT
Young - Maguire - Lindelof - AWB
DDG

Remember we had 2 players who couldn't produce goals or assists occupying our number 10 spot. How bonkers is that.

 

[meamth]

False. The best two teams in the country, build their houses with their attacks first. Then they plugged the holes at the back with reinforcements in defence.

Liverpool didn't win the league without van dijk, rise of trent, robertson and Allisson didn't they?

They built it backwards, but my point is clear.

Defensive stability first, than attack. Like Sir Alex once said.

 

[Skills]

Liverpool didn't win the league without van dijk, rise of trent, robertson and Allisson didn't they?

They built it backwards, but my point is clear.

Defensive stability first, than attack. Like Sir Alex once said.

Liverpool also didn't win the league without Salah, Firmino and Mane - they did finish top 4 with only 2 of them though, before they got Van Djik, Allison or Fabinho.

Honestly, some of you need to re-educate yourself on Alex Ferguson himself. Some of the bollocks you guys come out with make him sound like a disciple of Fabio Capello. Mourinho's not here anymore, so you don't have to re-invent Alex Ferguson's identity as a manager.

For the record, Alex Ferguson's teams were always among the top scorers in the league. Man Utd under him, topped the scoring charts more often than the defensive ones. The treble winning side were by far the top scorers in the league but only had the 4th best defensive record in the league. His solution to winning the league on the way out, was to get another striker in Van Persie than tighten up a porous defence (we top scored in his final season with the 5th best defensive record).

 

[11101]

You underestimate how shockingly bad Young was. Bruno brings confidence but that would have been quickly eroded with our backline under pressure every game.

 

[Ish]

The answer seems simple because he's brought the creativity and end product we've lacked, but it's still a complex question to answer, this. This is assuming Bruno would have had a similar impact from the start, but there are a ton of other variables at play. Form of others, injuries, Ole working on the mentality (and tactics) of the squad etc. But we deployed Lingard/Mata/Pereira in his position at various points during the season, so it's probably not hard to imagine we'd have turned some losses into draws and draws into wins. Would we have been so defensively solid without AWB though?

Sometimes you just need to allow the process to run its course. Maybe it would have still just all "clicked" for Ole and the boys when it did.

 

[roonster09]

His solution to winning the league on the way out, was to get another striker in Van Persie than tighten up a porous defence (we top scored in his final season with the 5th best defensive record).

We scored just 58 league goals in 2004-05, in 2005-06 we signed players like VDS, Vidic, Evra, Park. Then in 2006-07 he signed Carrick.

SAF also knew how to balance the team instead of blindly going with more attackers = better attack.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

Maybe we would have fared better against the lesser teams, but our wins vs City for example would be under doubt. Awb keeping Sterling and their entire left side quiet is a major factor in those wins

 

[RooneyLegend]

We'd probably be ahead of City.

 

[spontaneus1]

We would have been playing the first 6 months without a rb. So the answer is not half as many as people here think. People mentioning Dalot, Baily or Tuanzabe at right back realise they where injured pretty much permanently right?

 

[VivaObertan]

No we wouldn't. Apart from last season were everything went tits up, our current goal conceded stats (33) are worse then those in 2017-2018 (28) and 2016-2017 (29). Our stats are 1 goal better then that of Manchester City's with their disastrous defence and Leicester who sold Maguire to us. A top CB was needed but he wasn't essential, certainly not an 80m signing with zero pace who would fit in alongside Matic (slow) and Lindelof (slow)

So our stats are better than one of the best teams in Europe who have the ball 75% of every game and a defensive counter attacking team who are third in the league but it's a problem?

Before Maguire, we weren't a good team and we played shit football. With Maguire, we're a good team and we play good football.

Don't get the Maguire hate at all. This isn't FIFA, you don't just choose players based on their physical attributes with no regard to anything else.

 

[devilish]

You are gonna compare the stats for goals conceded from Mourinho's seasons to prove a point when he actually didn't even have Maguire? You also fail to mention we also have the 3rd bed defense in the league, and we were absolutely shit at times this season in our general play. I'd say Maguire has had a very good impact and has improved our defense for anyone who wants to see it. Whether he is worth 80m is completely another thing.

I am just saying that the stats doesn't support the notion that Maguire was a crucial figure in our team. We had conceded less goals during 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 despite not having our combined 130m defensive duo and despite not playing such defensive midfield with James, Fred and McT for most of the season.

Our stats are at par with that of Sheffield United and just 1 goal better then City (who have a crap defence) and Leicester (who lost Maguire). Also if you ask most fans they'll tell you that defence is the second area that need reinforcing after the RW role. I bet that if Greenwood keep playing the way he's doing then there's every chance that defence will jump up to first place.

But that's not all. Our defence had produced 5 assists this season which is less to what Robinson, Alexander-Arnold, Digne and Azpilicueta ON THEIR OWN . Therefore our defence is 3rd in the league at par with Sheffield and 1 goal better then Leicester and City but is way down the line in terms of assists.

Maguire is a good CB. He's the best we've got. However he's not an 80m rated CB. He's painfully slow, his positioning is meah and he's nowhere near as defensive sound as the likes of Van Dijk or Koulibaly let alone Rio, Vidic and Stam. Also his lack of pace hurts us big time considering that we had Matic and Lindelof already in the team. Clubs tend to spend 80m on a WC defender who can paper the cracks. Maguire is not that defender. Defence need 2 more players to get sorted ie a fast top quality CB and a LB who can create something.

 

[Skills]

We scored just 58 league goals in 2004-05, in 2005-06 we signed players like VDS, Vidic, Evra, Park. Then in 2006-07 he signed Carrick.

SAF also knew how to balance the team instead of blindly going with more attackers = better attack.

He was gambling on his big attacking signings coming good - Rooney cost more than Vidic, Evra, VDS and Carrick combined. A bit like how Oles gambled on Greenwood coming good RW.

We had nobody in line for the CAM spot that Bruno occupies though.

 

[devilish]

So our stats are better than one of the best teams in Europe who have the ball 75% of every game and a defensive counter attacking team who are third in the league but it's a problem?

Before Maguire, we weren't a good team and we played shit football. With Maguire, we're a good team and we play good football.

Don't get the Maguire hate at all. This isn't FIFA, you don't just choose players based on their physical attributes with no regard to anything else.

Hmm really? At 33 goals conceded we're at par to Sheffield United, Lazio and Inter. We're 1 goal better then Sevilla, Shitty, Getafe,and Leicester and we're worse then Real, Juventus, A Madrid and Bayern. I don't recall any of those teams investing 130m in defence last season. Our defence barely create any assists either. With 5 assists between the lot we lag behind Robinson, Digne, Azpilicueta, Alexander-Arnold and Kimmich ON THEIR OWN.

This is not an all or nothing situation were he can be either Baresi's level or Prunier's. Maguire is a good defender, the best CB we've got and the second best defender we've got as well. However he's nowhere near to WC let alone an 80m rated CB. Also to say that we were shit before he came to the club is ridiculous. United did conceded more goals last season but that's due to the upheaval we had during that year. In the 2 years prior that we conceded less goals then this season.

 

[VivaObertan]

Hmm really? At 33 goals conceded we're at par to Sheffield United, Lazio and Inter. We're 1 goal better then Sevilla, Shitty, Getafe,and Leicester and we're worse then Real, Juventus, A Madrid and Bayern. I don't recall any of those teams investing 130m in defence last season.

Our defence barely create any assists either. With 5 assists between the lot we lag behind Robinson, Digne, Azpilicueta, Alexander-Arnold and Kimmich ON THEIR OWN.

Literally everything you just said only holds weight in isolation. Sheffield and Inter have good, defensive teams (both play 5atb whilst we're more expansive) and then you compare us to 4 of the most solid teams in Europe... who also play against much weaker opposition in their respective leagues.

Liverpool and Bayern are setup for their full backs to be a huge part of the attacking game whereas we aren't. Are you trying to pick holes that don't really exist?

Also Kimmich is a centre mid, they have been playing Davies and Pavard as their wing backs.

 

[roonster09]

He was gambling on his big attacking signings coming good - Rooney cost more than Vidic, Evra, VDS and Carrick combined. A bit like how Oles gambled on Greenwood coming good RW.

We had nobody in line for the CAM spot that Bruno occupies though.

Yeah, so he was banking on improvement of players who were already in the squad and then made defensive signings to balance the team.

 

[Kostov]

I am just saying that the stats doesn't support the notion that Maguire was a crucial figure in our team. We had conceded less goals during 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 despite not having our combined 130m defensive duo and despite not playing such defensive midfield with James, Fred and McT for most of the season.

Our stats are at par with that of Sheffield United and just 1 goal better then City (who have a crap defence) and Leicester (who lost Maguire). Also if you ask most fans they'll tell you that defence is the second area that need reinforcing after the RW role. I bet that if Greenwood keep playing the way he's doing then there's every chance that defence will jump up to first place.

But that's not all. Our defence had produced 5 assists this season which is less to what Robinson, Alexander-Arnold, Digne and Azpilicueta ON THEIR OWN . Therefore our defence is 3rd in the league at par with Sheffield and 1 goal better then Leicester and City but is way down the line in terms of assists.

Maguire is a good CB. He's the best we've got. However he's not an 80m rated CB. He's painfully slow, his positioning is meah and he's nowhere near as defensive sound as the likes of Van Dijk or Koulibaly let alone Rio, Vidic and Stam. Also his lack of pace hurts us big time considering that we had Matic and Lindelof already in the team. Clubs tend to spend 80m on a WC defender who can paper the cracks. Maguire is not that defender. Defence need 2 more players to get sorted ie a fast top quality CB and a LB who can create something.

We had conceded less goals in a much different set up and approach to games. Not sure what does that 130m figure add to the argument, since even when we didn't have Maguire and were spending 40m on Lindelof or before that Bailly our best CB was Smalling, so not that much value for our money either.

And that part of not playing such defensive midfield with Fred and McT? We played games with Matic and Fellaini on top of Herrera, absolute bullshit argument if there is one. Not sure what you are talking about but that midfield 3 was much better and stable defensively than Fred and McT.

And how can you point out to our better record than City and than claim how their defense is shit, but fail to point out that we've only conceded 7 more goals than Livepool who supposedly have a good defense right? And play Fabinho in front of their defense who is better than anything we can put out at CDM. It's pure bullshit. Add to that that Ole has just after 60% of the season realized that Matic is the guy that should be playing not Fred or McT, and I'd say Maguire has has a pretty good impact, and that is just taking into account pure facts.

Second most important area for improvement is CDM which will directly affect our defense, and when we actually reinforce the defense is to find a proper partner for Maguire. Whether he is crucial figure I guess some of you will not realize until he actually misses some games and we have to rely on Lindelof holding that defense together and not having a CB who can win a fecking header. Maybe then Maguire will get the credit he deserves.

Maguire is not a 80m defender, everybody knows that, why are you so bent over that figure? He is slow but I don't see how that hurts us to this moment , his positioning is fine and he is very sound in his defensive game, he wins most of his duels and does 80% of the defending in aggressive manner which helps us winning the ball much faster. Not as good as VVD but I'm actually happy that we bought Maguire instead of Koulibally, younger and immediately a captain for us, which demonstrates his character and leadership. Clubs don't tend to spend 80m, there are just couple of examples. Livepool did great with VVD, Bayern just spent that amount on a guy who is actually a LB and has played there for most of his career, ended up injured and already talked about leaving.

As I already said, if we were a smartly run club we would have bought Maguire from Hull and saved 20m instead of buying Lindelof at the same time for 40m. I was pointing out that back when it actually happened, and for many on here their best argument was that we should not be buying players for relegated teams, probably the same posters that are blubbering how we should not have spent 80m on Maguire. Instead of getting a bargain back then we overspent by 30-40m last summer, but we have only ourselves to blame.

 

[devilish]

Literally everything you just said only holds weight in isolation. Sheffield and Inter have good, defensive teams (both play 5atb whilst we're more expansive) and then you compare us to 4 of the most solid teams in Europe... who also play against much weaker opposition in their respective leagues.

Liverpool and Bayern are setup for their full backs to be a huge part of the attacking game whereas we aren't. Are you trying to pick holes that don't really exist?

Also Kimmich is a centre mid, they have been playing Davies and Pavard as their wing backs.

We had been a defensive team for most of the season. In fact we played with 4 defensive minded defenders & Fred and McT and James in midfield. Things improved later on with Ole signing Bruno, Pogba returning and Greenwood taking his place as RW. However let's not ignore the superior defensive cover the likes of McT, James and Fred give over the typical attacking minded players.

Also note that our fullbacks aren't a huge part of the attacking game simply because they are usually not good enough at the attacking side of the game. In face AWB had improved in that area throughout the season (4 assists). Shaw doesn't do that because, well, how to say it in a political correct way, erm, shit?