Brophs
The One and Only
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Doubt it considering Trump's stance on Israel.Erdogan and Trump are best pals probably
Erdogan and Trump are best pals probably
No, they get along pretty well.Doubt it considering Trump's stance on Israel.
Erdogan and Trump are best pals probably
Trumps stance on Israel is every American presidents stance on Israel for some fecking reason.Doubt it considering Trump's stance on Israel.
Trump is a believer, on the right-side type who dares to speak something different from the utterly generic phrases. He must be evil! You haven't grasped this logical equation yet, Jim?
that does not seem to be true currentlyNo, they get along pretty well.
In general yes, however supporting Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a new one.Trumps stance on Israel is every American presidents stance on Israel for some fecking reason.
Suppose I'd forgotten about the whole Jerusalem thing tbf.that does not seem to be true currently
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/tillerson-turkish-relations-crisis-point-180216091659908.html
And Erdogan has called US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital a "red line".
It's not just or even mostly about Jerusalem, the bigger issue for Erdogan is the US relationship with the YPG/SDF in Syria.Suppose I'd forgotten about the whole Jerusalem thing tbf.
I knew they were on good terms at one point but that may purely because of Trump Towers in Istanbul
Absolutely spot on!The crackdown since the coup is absolute bullshit, but he was part of the Gülen movement that helped Turkey to become what it is today. Absolutely no sympathy for him.
Absolutely spot on!
Why would anyone have sympathy for someone who wants the country to be a theocracy?
Top comment Glaston, you seem to know your stuff. Although Erdogan didn't begin his political life in this way, for a long time he has been using religion to the extreme for political power and sway over the majority of citizens.The people in the Gulen movement are Sufis - as different from Sunni or Shia Islamic extremists as oil is different from water.
Sufi shrines and temples are bombed and attacked in places like Pakistan ... and the reason is that they condemn violence in the name of religion. They represent the mystical strand of Islam.
Wiki: "Movement participants have set up a number of media organisations to promote its core values such as love, tolerance, hope, dialogue, activism, mutual acceptance and respect."
They are almost the polar opposite of Islamic authoritarians.
Yep, and Erdogan blamed the Gulen movement for initiating corruption proceedings against members of his family and others.Top comment Glaston, you seem to know your stuff. Although Erdogan didn't begin his political life in this way, for a long time he has been using religion to the extreme for political power and sway over the majority of citizens.
Even though he was never known as an extremist or conservative believer, Erdogan has obviously identified the easiest way possible to consolidate all power in his own hands by forcing down the Islamic way of life as being the Turkish way of life. However, the hypocrisy literally reeks of him and his family, especially his wife, who is alleged to be spending tens of millions of dollars a month on luxurious lifestyle. It's all hearsay to be honest, but it comes directly from Turkey from some of my business relations and partners.
Erdogan is also associated with a Sufi order. The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hassan al-Banna, was a Sufi. Being 'Sufi' does not necessarily say anything about one's approach to politics and the role of Islam in broader society - the Gulen movement was in a very close alliance with the AKP for years before things went sour.The people in the Gulen movement are Sufis - as different from Sunni or Shia Islamic extremists as oil is different from water.
Sufi shrines and temples are bombed and attacked in places like Pakistan ... and the reason is that they condemn violence in the name of religion. They represent the mystical strand of Islam.
Wiki: "Movement participants have set up a number of media organisations to promote its core values such as love, tolerance, hope, dialogue, activism, mutual acceptance and respect."
They are almost the polar opposite of Islamic authoritarians.
Actually not. He is just the first one to go through with actually moving the embassy there. But this was on the agenda of all presidents since 1995 when congress passed a law to move the embassy there. It was just put on the back burner by every president since.In general yes, however supporting Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a new one.
And they went sour because of corruption investigations into Erdogan's family and members of his government that Gulen started.Erdogan is also associated with a Sufi order. The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hassan al-Banna, was a Sufi. Being 'Sufi' does not necessarily say anything about one's approach to politics and the role of Islam in broader society - the Gulen movement was in a very close alliance with the AKP for years before things went sour.
Not sure about that mate, the Ottomans were Sufis and they expanded their empire quite extensively.And they went sour because of corruption investigations into Erdogan's family and members of his government that Gulen started.
I agree that being a Sufi doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, but genuine Sufis do not go around saying (as Erdogan has): "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...."
Sufism is about "inner Islam" - mystical union with divinity. It's not about outward power and conquest. And this is why Sunni and Shia extremists hate Sufis.
Fair enough.Actually not. He is just the first one to go through with actually moving the embassy there. But this was on the agenda of all presidents since 1995 when congress passed a law to move the embassy there. It was just but on the back burner by every president since.
What's a 'genuine Sufi'? The term is so broad and includes so much that it can only be applied in the vaguest sense. It was Sufi orders which led military resistance to the European powers in places like Algeria, the Caucasus, India and the Sudan. Today members of a Sufi-inspired sect in Pakistan have murdered and celebrated the murder of a politician who dared to criticize the country's blasphemy laws, and have led the persecution of Ahmadis. There is this image in the West of the apolitical, cuddly Sufi hippy who spends his days smoking weed, hanging out with the Whirling Dervishes, and listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. The reality is much more complicated.And they went sour because of corruption investigations into Erdogan's family and members of his government that Gulen started.
I agree that being a Sufi doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, but genuine Sufis do not go around saying (as Erdogan has): "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...."
Well, Trump claims to be a Christian - doesn't stop him from encouraging white supremacists and generally sowing strife and division.Not sure about that mate, the Ottomans were Sufis and they expanded their empire quite extensively.
Of course, very few things are black and white. But what you've cited is more the exception than the rule.What's a 'genuine Sufi'? The term is so broad and includes so much that it can only be applied in the vaguest sense. It was Sufi orders which led military resistance to the European powers in places like Algeria, the Caucasus, India and the Sudan. Today members of a Sufi-inspired sect in Pakistan have murdered and celebrated the murder of a politician who dared to criticize the country's blasphemy laws, and have led the persecution of Ahmadis. There is this image in the West of the apolitical, cuddly Sufi hippy who spends his days smoking weed, hanging out with the Whirling Dervishes, and listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. The reality is much more complicated.
Here's a quote from Gulen by the way:
"The existence of our comrades is the guarantee of the future of Islam. From this aspect, their presence in the law courts, or in the civil service, or in other service sectors, the existence of our comrades cannot be evaluated as being out of individual obligation. Rather, in these units, they are the guarantee for our future (...) without having formed a strong front in the constitutional institutions; any step we take will be too early.
Until you have reached the correct saturation, until you have the strength to carry the world on your back, until you have laid claim to those things that represent power, until you have formed a powerful front in all of the constitutional institutions that are equivalent to the formation of the state in Turkey, every step you take will be a step too early."
This is true!The people in the Gulen movement are Sufis - as different from Sunni or Shia Islamic extremists as oil is different from water.
Ticked all the boxes there.There is this image in the West of the apolitical, cuddly Sufi hippy who spends his days smoking weed, hanging out with the Whirling Dervishes, and listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.
I dunno. I suspect that, in practice, there would be little difference; they're drawn from extremely similar Islamist traditions in Turkey (which is why they were such close allies for a long period), and as the quote above shows, Gulen is every bit as (if not more) shadowy and unaccountable.The quote about Gulen shows that they have, amongst other things, political objectives. But I rather see them in power than Erdogan, if that was the choice. Would you rather have Erdogan?
I don't think there is a "rule". Pretty much every major Muslim of any historical significance who lived between, say, the tenth and nineteenth centuries was affiliated in some way with a Sufi order (the great exceptions being, of course, the Wahhabis of the eighteenth century onward). That includes even a figure like Ibn Taymiyyah, who was a member of the Qadiri order but is today revered by Salafis, including the al Qaeda and ISIS types, and also includes the founders of the Deoband madrassa in India. For all that time it was Sufism rather than the reading of texts which defined devotional life for most Muslims (who were illiterate). The distinction back then wasn't between Sufis and non-Sufis, but between the range of temperamental tendencies within Sufism, i.e. between the sober, shariah-minded Sufis and the more extravagant, celebratory types which have tended to shape our image of Sufism today (and everything in between). It's impossible to pin down such a broad range of human experience into neat categories, especially when the categories we use originate from modern and generally Western traditions. It's only really with modern-day Salafism that an explicitly "anti-Sufi" trend has emerged, and because of that we have tended to view Sufis as the diametric opposite of those who target them. But this is a distortion.what you've cited is more the exception than the rule
I think you have to question the concept of "genuine" anything though, especially with regards to religious movements with multiple interpretations of text and people involved.And they went sour because of corruption investigations into Erdogan's family and members of his government that Gulen started.
I agree that being a Sufi doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, but genuine Sufis do not go around saying (as Erdogan has): "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...."
Sufism is about "inner Islam" - mystical union with divinity. It's not about outward power and conquest. And this is why Sunni and Shia extremists hate Sufis.
Nah they are not. It's just a narrative that they chose after they fell out with Erdogan in order to gain the western media's support. Trust me they are some of the most intolerant groups I have ever seen in my life.The people in the Gulen movement are Sufis - as different from Sunni or Shia Islamic extremists as oil is different from water.
Sufi shrines and temples are bombed and attacked in places like Pakistan ... and the reason is that they condemn violence in the name of religion. They represent the mystical strand of Islam.
Wiki: "Movement participants have set up a number of media organisations to promote its core values such as love, tolerance, hope, dialogue, activism, mutual acceptance and respect."
They are almost the polar opposite of Islamic authoritarians.
Great post.I know that Hakan Sukur seems innocent here but he is not. He was my childhood hero but I can not hate him more. To see people like him or NBA player Enes Kanter talk so shamelessly makes me incredibly angry and frustrated.
The hatred towards Erdogan clouds everyone's judgement but Gulen and his movement paved the way for Erdogan to turn Turkey what it is today. They gave all the power that Erdogan needed and when their interest were collided, they turned against each other. 10 years ago, Turkey was the same unjust country, thanks to Gulen & AKP alliance. You were not reading about it because Gulenists knew how to mask those unjust practices. Make no mistake, Hakan Sukur or Gulenists are by no means devoters of democracy. The only reason they looks so is they are funding lobbyists in west incredible amounts of money. They were so powerful that they were able to get the questions of military exams beforehand and they were able to hand them to their followers. That's why most members of our military were Gulenists and we that's also why seculars like me had no difficulty believing that the coup was made by Gulenists.
The day before he hang up his boots, Hakan Sukur visited Erdogan. He wanted to become Sports Ministry of the country and he became a member of assembly in 2011. During the Gezi protests, which was a protest crying for democracy, he claimed that protestors like me where vandals. The list can go on but he was never an innocent figure, just like his gulenist buddies.
Hakan Sukur now lives in San Francisco. He has a beautiful house and owns a fancy cafe over there. He might not be coming back to Turkey but he lives a wealthy life. Just like his many gulenist friends who live in US with the money of many innocent people. And I don't believe one second that he feels depressed not being able to go back to Turkey. But, because of Gulenists like him, many people's lives are destroyed in Turkey. While they live a wealthy life in U.S, so many of their old followers suffer here without knowing what to do with their lives.
There is a victim in this story but that is not Hakan Sukur. The victim is seculars or neutral people like me, who are deeply worried to see where our country is headed to.
Fascinating insight.I know that Hakan Sukur seems innocent here but he is not. He was my childhood hero but I can not hate him more. To see people like him or NBA player Enes Kanter talk so shamelessly makes me incredibly angry and frustrated.
The hatred towards Erdogan clouds everyone's judgement but Gulen and his movement paved the way for Erdogan to turn Turkey what it is today. They gave all the power that Erdogan needed and when their interest were collided, they turned against each other. 10 years ago, Turkey was the same unjust country, thanks to Gulen & AKP alliance. You were not reading about it because Gulenists knew how to mask those unjust practices. Make no mistake, Hakan Sukur or Gulenists are by no means devoters of democracy. The only reason they looks so is they are funding lobbyists in west incredible amounts of money. The article was w They were so powerful that they were able to get the questions of military exams beforehand and they were able to hand them to their followers. That's why most members of our military were Gulenists and that's also why seculars like me had no difficulty believing that the coup was made by Gulenists.
The day before he hang up his boots, Hakan Sukur visited Erdogan. He wanted to become Sports Ministry of the country and he became a member of assembly in 2011. During the Gezi protests, which was a protest crying for democracy, he claimed that protestors like me where vandals. The list can go on but he was never an innocent figure, just like his gulenist buddies.
Hakan Sukur now lives in San Francisco. He has a beautiful house and owns a fancy cafe over there. He might not be coming back to Turkey but he lives a wealthy life. Just like his many Gulenist friends who live in US with the money of many innocent people and I don't believe one second that he feels depressed not being able to go back. But, because of Gulenists like him, many people's lives are destroyed in Turkey. While they live a wealthy life in U.S, so many of their old followers suffer here without knowing what to do with their lives.
There is a victim in this story but that is not Hakan Sukur. The victim is seculars or neutral people like me, who are deeply worried to see where our country is headed to.
MOre likely if the Glazers need a Trump Tower next to OT.Can you imagine buddies Trump, Ergodan, Putin and Ed Glazer going bowling together?
I’m sure the first topic of conversation would be ‘so Ed, what’s the skinny on Pogba’.
Great post.I know that Hakan Sukur seems innocent here but he is not. He was my childhood hero but I can not hate him more. To see people like him or NBA player Enes Kanter talk so shamelessly makes me incredibly angry and frustrated.
The hatred towards Erdogan clouds everyone's judgement but Gulen and his movement paved the way for Erdogan to turn Turkey what it is today. They gave all the power that Erdogan needed and when their interest were collided, they turned against each other. 10 years ago, Turkey was the same unjust country, thanks to Gulen & AKP alliance. You were not reading about it because Gulenists knew how to mask those unjust practices. Make no mistake, Hakan Sukur or Gulenists are by no means devoters of democracy. The only reason they looks so is they are funding lobbyists in west incredible amounts of money. The article was w They were so powerful that they were able to get the questions of military exams beforehand and they were able to hand them to their followers. That's why most members of our military were Gulenists and that's also why seculars like me had no difficulty believing that the coup was made by Gulenists.
The day before he hang up his boots, Hakan Sukur visited Erdogan. He wanted to become Sports Ministry of the country and he became a member of assembly in 2011. During the Gezi protests, which was a protest crying for democracy, he claimed that protestors like me where vandals. The list can go on but he was never an innocent figure, just like his gulenist buddies.
Hakan Sukur now lives in San Francisco. He has a beautiful house and owns a fancy cafe over there. He might not be coming back to Turkey but he lives a wealthy life. Just like his many Gulenist friends who live in US with the money of many innocent people and I don't believe one second that he feels depressed not being able to go back. But, because of Gulenists like him, many people's lives are destroyed in Turkey. While they live a wealthy life in U.S, so many of their old followers suffer here without knowing what to do with their lives.
There is a victim in this story but that is not Hakan Sukur. The victim is seculars or neutral people like me, who are deeply worried to see where our country is headed to.
It's a horseshit narrative. If anybody is trying to portray Gülen as "good," they either don't know what they're talking about or are incredibly biased.Fascinating insight.
I think the good (Gulen) vs evil (Erdogan) narrative is very seductive but clearly a massive oversimplification.