Has (international) football become too generic?

[Pexbo]

Something I was thinking about the other day watching Mancini’s Italy pressing high and pushing to extend their goal difference, then thinking back to the Brazil teams at recent World Cups where that lethargic rhythm has long gone. Has club football becoming such an international affair inevitably lead to a dilution of the style and culture that made international tournaments in the slightest bit interesting?

The Netherlands is another one, it was a really exciting match against Ukraine but there’s only the most fleeting references to Cruyff in their play, in fact the same Cruyff influences are now as evident in Spanish football as they are Dutch.

I guess it was an inevitability of a mixing of ideas over decades, with all nationalities of coaches training all nationality players on a daily basis but it does feel like something has been lost on the international stage because of it.

Which nations are staying truest to the style of football they are synonymous with?

 

[manc exile]

Something I was thinking about the other day watching Mancini’s Italy pressing high and pushing to extend their goal difference, then thinking back to the Brazil teams at recent World Cups where that lethargic rhythm has long gone. Has club football becoming such an international affair inevitably lead to a dilution of the style and culture that made international tournaments in the slightest bit interesting?

The Netherlands is another one, it was a really exciting match against Ukraine but there’s only the most fleeting references to Cruyff in their play, in fact the same Cruyff influences are now as evident in Spanish football as they are Dutch.

I guess it was an inevitability of a mixing of ideas over decades, with all nationalities of coaches training all nationality players on a daily basis but it does feel like something has been lost on the international stage because of it.

Which nations are staying truest to the style of football they are synonymous with?

this is just fanciful horseshit

 

[Pexbo]

this is just fanciful horseshit

Oh ok, thanks for your reply

 

[Spaghetti]

Something I was thinking about the other day watching Mancini’s Italy pressing high and pushing to extend their goal difference, then thinking back to the Brazil teams at recent World Cups where that lethargic rhythm has long gone. Has club football becoming such an international affair inevitably lead to a dilution of the style and culture that made international tournaments in the slightest bit interesting?

The Netherlands is another one, it was a really exciting match against Ukraine but there’s only the most fleeting references to Cruyff in their play, in fact the same Cruyff influences are now as evident in Spanish football as they are Dutch.

I guess it was an inevitability of a mixing of ideas over decades, with all nationalities of coaches training all nationality players on a daily basis but it does feel like something has been lost on the international stage because of it.

Which nations are staying truest to the style of football they are synonymous with?

No nations are synonymous with a style. Many nations have had eras where they played a certain style. Total football for the Dutch being an example.

It doesn’t mean nations can / will / should keep that style forever - they might not have the players for it. Countries can’t buy appropriate players, they get what they’re given. They adapt accordingly. In fact, they should adapt and develop regardless, as football changes over time.

 

[Bebestation]

Il get hated for saying this - but this is why I enjoy Ole’s football.

It’s much less tactically dense to the point that you don’t have 11 players playing the same way.

When you consider that United team have had such a bad squad for a near decade - having a manager that relies on an individuals quality is something I value because I see our squad is improving with different individual qualities.

In regards to National football - i think there is a tactically based style playing across certain countries; but what evens it out is that international clubs can’t exactly pick it’s players to a level like a club can. It kinds of evens it out a little bit.

 

[Number32]

Something I was thinking about the other day watching Mancini’s Italy pressing high and pushing to extend their goal difference, then thinking back to the Brazil teams at recent World Cups where that lethargic rhythm has long gone. Has club football becoming such an international affair inevitably lead to a dilution of the style and culture that made international tournaments in the slightest bit interesting?

The Netherlands is another one, it was a really exciting match against Ukraine but there’s only the most fleeting references to Cruyff in their play, in fact the same Cruyff influences are now as evident in Spanish football as they are Dutch.

I guess it was an inevitability of a mixing of ideas over decades, with all nationalities of coaches training all nationality players on a daily basis but it does feel like something has been lost on the international stage because of it.

Which nations are staying truest to the style of football they are synonymous with?

Argentina, that's why Messi would struggle to reach his club level performance.
In fact there's not much different style of football recently. Every team has studied every move, every tactics, even coaching style that exist in the world of football.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Argentina, that's why Messi would struggle to reach his club level performance.
In fact there's not much different style of football recently. Every team has studied every move, every tactics, even coaching style that exist in the world of football.

there are no surprises anymore.

 

[Hoboman]

Thankfully England preserve their style and play the same dull and uninspiring football for the last two decades

 

[manc exile]

this is just fanciful horseshit

i could have given a more nuanced response
but when someone says the sky is yellow with purple polka dots i could explain about raleigh scattering of smaller wavelengths etc etc, but the obvious thing to do is say look at it, its blue
the same is true of the original post

 

[Pexbo]

i could have given a more nuanced response
but when someone says the sky is yellow with purple polka dots i could explain about raleigh scattering of smaller wavelengths etc etc, but the obvious thing to do is say look at it, its blue
the same is true of the original post

this is just fanciful horseshit

 

[justsomebloke]

Something I was thinking about the other day watching Mancini’s Italy pressing high and pushing to extend their goal difference, then thinking back to the Brazil teams at recent World Cups where that lethargic rhythm has long gone. Has club football becoming such an international affair inevitably lead to a dilution of the style and culture that made international tournaments in the slightest bit interesting?

The Netherlands is another one, it was a really exciting match against Ukraine but there’s only the most fleeting references to Cruyff in their play, in fact the same Cruyff influences are now as evident in Spanish football as they are Dutch.

I guess it was an inevitability of a mixing of ideas over decades, with all nationalities of coaches training all nationality players on a daily basis but it does feel like something has been lost on the international stage because of it.

Which nations are staying truest to the style of football they are synonymous with?

As you say, styles evolve, and teams learn from each other. This is in my view a good thing. Dutch Total Football is now 50 years old, you can't simply pick a style of play and then stick to it in perpetuity.

But I think there are still some distinct identities, as we saw from Spain yesterday.

 

[Zen86]

Freedom and expression aren’t really a thing any more, it’s all about organisation and doing what you’re told. Everyone more or less plays the same. Basically, football isn’t half as entertaining as it used to be.

 

[dinostar77]

It boils down to the national players available to the manager. The formation and philosophy should be adapted to the available personal. If you happen to have a WC player or two you build around their strengths. Otherwise you go into this blind avenue of sticking to a principle/methodology that doesnt suit you.

Example is Spain last night, pass, pass the ball to death. Had a winger in adama traore on the bench who is more direct, beating the man and getting the crosses in. Does enrique change philosophy no? Even with the subs its pass, pass, pass to death.

 

[Oranges038]

Football has never been more boring.

 

[VorZakone]

Nobody seems to try to consistently beat their direct marker and start a dribble. It's all quite disciplined and tactical which does make the matches a bit more boring.

 

[Hughes35]

Had a similar conversation with my mates a couple of weeks ago but about football in general.

The consensus was that football is now over coached, no room for mavericks anymore as they might give the ball away trying to do something special. Any flair or individuality is coached out of them.

 

[Ajr]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMdjRGqRL/
I know it's a tiktok video but my friend just sent me this as they thought it'd be an idea I'd come up with but having a pitch like that would really make international football spicier.

 

[Wibble]

Oh ok, thanks for your reply

Such in depth analysis is hard to find.

 

[romufc]

Had a similar conversation with my mates a couple of weeks ago but about football in general.

The consensus was that football is now over coached, no room for mavericks anymore as they might give the ball away trying to do something special. Any flair or individuality is coached out of them.

Do you blame them?

We can all say it is the coaches etc but fans are to blame too.

Bruno is an example, he tries to make things happen, look for killer passes but when he struggles to find it, the narrative is he isnt good enough on the ball because his passing % isnt 90%.

Another example is Ole. Ole is a manager who allows attacking players to do something special but then the fans say "we rely on individual brilliance" when we have players who can do things in our team.

It is clear there is a big portion of fans that want this safe football as well, so its to do with fans as well.

 

[JPRouve]

Nobody seems to try to consistently beat their direct marker and start a dribble. It's all quite disciplined and tactical which does make the matches a bit more boring.

A theory that I have heard is that there is a lot less street football influence in young players, the only football they know is organized football which is all about efficiency, discipline and end product. Even on the caf, we are too focused on silverware and stats spreadsheet, we have people proudly claiming that they only care about winning and not entertainment.

 

[Hughes35]

Do you blame them?

We can all say it is the coaches etc but fans are to blame too.

Bruno is an example, he tries to make things happen, look for killer passes but when he struggles to find it, the narrative is he isnt good enough on the ball because his passing % isnt 90%.

Another example is Ole. Ole is a manager who allows attacking players to do something special but then the fans say "we rely on individual brilliance" when we have players who can do things in our team.

It is clear there is a big portion of fans that want this safe football as well, so its to do with fans as well.

Very true. Not blaming the players or coaches as such. Their job is to win and it's not really arguable that keeping the ball results in more results.

As a spectator sport it was much better before the extreme coaching though. Give me a Jay Jay Okocha over a Jorginho any day of the week.

 

[romufc]

Very true. Not blaming the players or coaches as such. Their job is to win and it's not really arguable that keeping the ball results in more results.

As a spectator sport it was much better before the extreme coaching though. Give me a Jay Jay Okocha over a Jorginho any day of the week.

I agree with you, we want to see a wide man beat his player, do something special. Mbappe and Neymar are one of the only ones, even though I think Rashford is capable of doing it.

With football, so much emphasis is put on results that managers are scared to take risks. We saw England v Croatia where I cannot recall more than 5 times where the full backs overlapped. It was conservative football.

 

[massi83]

Isn't this just a "in my youth everything was better" kinda thread?

 

[DWelbz19]

Not really sure it goes with the theme of the thread, but I think a lot of the issues in current football making it generic is due to sheer exhaustion. These boys have been playing non-stop since the lockdowns ended last year. They'll have less than a month off before the 21-22 season starts up, and then it's straight into the '22 World Cup too.

 

[DickDastardly]

It's more diluted because of the shitty format. Any country that actually knows how to play football qualified.

There are 27 countries in the EU, and this EURO has 24 countries in it. The qualification process was piss easy, who even gived a feck.

Other then what you said, the Dutch and Cruyff, or the Italian calcio, Spanish tiki taka or whatever the feck that is....what are the lets say "historical" styles of football that you could associate with?

Swiss? Turkey? Finland? Russia? Macedonia? Sweden? Poland? Croatia?.......etc....can't think of any specific style they play.

You associate style of football with specific players - aka the Cruyff Dutch, or the Beckenbauer Germany.
Because they were real playmakers, players who made a difference are were allowed to do so.
And the other players around them were OK with that.

You actually don't have a lot of midfield players nowdays whose team revolves around them and is solely dependant to them.

 

[Offside]

People have been saying this for years. All teams play in a generic way and have been for a long time.

One of the biggest breaths of fresh air I can remember was Australia at the 2006 World Cup - so different to any style anyone was playing during that tournament and they were completely fecked over to lose to eventual winners Italy.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Which nations are staying truest to the style of football they are synonymous with?

Sweden, still loyal to Hodgesonball

 

[dinostar77]

Is anyone watching Copa America? Is that the same? 4-3-1-2 used to be prevalent at club level in Argentina and Brasil and they had the special no10 behind the strikers. Does that still happen and does that translate to international football in south america ?

 

[VorZakone]

A theory that I have heard is that there is a lot less street football influence in young players, the only football they know is organized football which is all about efficiency, discipline and end product. Even on the caf, we are too focused on silverware and stats spreadsheet, we have people proudly claiming that they only care about winning and not entertainment.

I think plenty of players today have the skillset to play entertaining football and try dribbles, I think it's more to do with the instructions they get. Modern football is simply more disciplined than ever. Trying a dribble means risking losing the ball.

 

[JPRouve]

I think plenty of players today have the skillset to play entertaining football and try dribbles, I think it's more to do with the instructions they get. Modern football is simply more disciplined than ever. Trying a dribble means risking losing the ball.

It's not about skillset but mentality, they don't have the creativity, you don't become entertaining out of nowhere. Players learn that in the street or in futsal.

 

[#07]

To engage seriously with the OP, I think a certain level of generality in international football is inevitable.

Most coaches say that they need pre-season and time on the training pitch to get across their ideas to players. International football, by its nature, cuts down the amount of pre-work you can do. Even if you are a coaching genius, what can you do if you only have your best players available to you for a handful of sessions every few months? That's assuming your best players are fit when its call up time.

It seems inevitable then, if coaches don't have a lot of time to drill complex stuff, that teams will fall back on principles almost any top level player can grasp quickly. As a result I am not surprised to see how any teams in this Euros seem to have based their attacks on getting it wide and crossing. Its a simple idea that you don't have to work very much on and everyone has done it at some level.

The real surprise, for me, is when you have coaches like Bielsa who show with international sides e.g., Argentina and Chile, that they can apply their club football ideas at international level.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Spain play more like Van Gaal than Cruijff and football evolves, for all the plaudits heeped on Cruijff, we never actually won anything with him.

 

[FrankDrebin]

A possible lack of individualism and creativity from coaches/management ?

 

[padzilla]

The more advancements made in coaching techniques the more staid the experience for fans. It's cyclical too, at the moment playing it out from the back and pressing high are in vogue, you saw yesterday with David Marshall the Scottish keeper practically playing on the halfway line to allow the players to press up the pitch - it backfired spectacularly.
There is an consensus that playing boring and dull stuff is fine as long as you win, look at the rapturous response to England beating Croatia 1-0.
It could also be argued there is so much at stake in top-level soccer, by that I mean money, that coaches are never going to take risks.
The romance of the game is way down the list of priorities for most sides these days, Leicester being criticised for thinking winning an actual competition was a bigger achievement than finishing fourth in a league that was a one-horse league for Man City being another example.
It's the reason why players like Fred and McTominay start every week for us, they aren't capable of the magic that others are but because they will run themselves into the ground they will be picked again and again.

 

[King7Eric]

Il get hated for saying this - but this is why I enjoy Ole’s football.

It’s much less tactically dense to the point that you don’t have 11 players playing the same way.

When you consider that United team have had such a bad squad for a near decade - having a manager that relies on an individuals quality is something I value because I see our squad is improving with different individual qualities.

In regards to National football - i think there is a tactically based style playing across certain countries; but what evens it out is that international clubs can’t exactly pick it’s players to a level like a club can. It kinds of evens it out a little bit.

I agree. Don't know about others but personally I like to see forwards have a bit of unpredictability about them, all this patterns of play nonsense does my head in. Football is about entertainment and sure if people get entertained watching highly drilled teams performing the same moves over and again then fair enough, but I like it when you have a player on the ball who you don't know what they are gonna with it. That's why it will be a shame watching someone like Grealish join City, he will win trophies but lose what makes him special.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I agree, it's a good point. I think Guardiola changed football for better or for worse, there was a lot of defensive 'shit on a stick' football before he arrived with Mourinho, Benitez etc in their element, so Guardiola turned it back to a technique based game based on skill more than physique.

But since then the Guardiola way of playing where 10 passes into the box then always try to drag back for easy chance is better than a daring dribble, a long-range shot, getting down the byline for a cross. It's overcoaching. Coaching has never been better in my opinion but in many ways the coaches are now the stars, they are games of chess and a lot of the players are replaceable. Man City could play two XIs and a casual barely notices the difference. There's no individuality to it.

Some of these skills have gone missing from the game and they were the most compelling to watch. If you watch Brazil in the 1970 or 1982 World Cups, every player they have almost did a shimmy whenever they got the ball, the thought was to dribble before you do anything else, like they were showing off. This kind of joy for football and flair is only continued by Neymar, Hazard at his peak, Messi and a few others.

Brazil play like a European team now because a lot of their players have spent most of their careers in Europe and many are going over younger and younger so they're being coached in the general western European style before they have developed that daring. That's why I believe Neymar is still so entertaining, he played 225 games for Santos before he came to Europe.

 

[SirReginald]

Generic being another term for extremely boring and predictable? Been that way for over 10 years and unlikely to change any time soon. World Cup is the only chance to catch anything different since European teams are really only separated by the selection of players ability.

 

[Terranova]

It's more diluted because of the shitty format. Any country that actually knows how to play football qualified.

There are 27 countries in the EU, and this EURO has 24 countries in it. The qualification process was piss easy, who even gived a feck.

Sure 24 is too much, but Europa isn't the EU. Not a fair comparison. Uefa has 55 members(all 54 European countries + Israel). So 24 teams is slightly less than 50% of the countries.

 

[DOTA]

Fanciful horseshit.

Not having a go I just thought it looked fun to say.

Fanciful horseshit.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Football as a whole isn’t as exciting as it used to be.

Or maybe I just got old. Dunno.

it definitely seems more tactical & less expressive than it used to he though. There’s a reason why someone like Pogba is in & out of our team yet McTominay starts every game. One is better at following instructions then the other. Flair on the pitch seems to be dying.