Has there ever been any value in Manchester United buying from other top tier clubs, historically?

[Loony BoB]

This is about our transfer history with specific other clubs, so I'm really unsure if this belongs in the MU forum, the Transfer forum or the general football forum, so please feel free to move the thread if this isn't the right choice. Felt MU forum is probably the best shout but apologies if I got that wrong.

Have we *ever* had any value in buying from a club that is seen to be a top, top level club in the world at the time? Not including free transfers, I'm talking exclusively paid transfers. I was discussing this in the de Jong thread and I almost wonder if we should just set up a policy that we don't even bother asking Real, Barca, Bayern, etc. for their players because they never turn out successes for us. But I thought, hey, maybe I'm overlooking something...

The only good deals I can think of from 'big clubs' in the past 22 years (not bothering going back to the 90s) were RVP and DDG, and we might argue Sancho - but even then, those were purchases from Arsenal, Athletico and Dortmund - not quite Real Madrid, Juventus, Barcelona etc. I think every buy we've made from a big, big club has just not worked out for us and we should seriously consider just avoiding it entirely at all costs from now on. Happy to be proven wrong if and when it happens but it's a gut feeling and I was curious as to what everyone else's thoughts were on this.

 

[TwoSheds]

Plenty of good players we've had from Leeds back when they were still good.

Ronaldo?

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

By definition, the top clubs don't tend to sell to their direct competition. So we haven't sold our best players to those clubs either, Beckham and Ronaldo apart.

And buying them you could argue Varane, Di Maria, Hughes...there's not many.

Most if not all top clubs tend to buy from mid tier clubs when the players are young. Because those players want to stay at those clubs then when they are ready to sell they are past their best.

In addition, in 50% of cases United develop their own so we enter the transfer market less than others.

 

[Random Task]

RVP from Arsenal is the only one I can think of.

It's rare for a top tier football club to sell its most valued assets to a domestic rival. European rivals too but it's less rare.

Take Liverpool and United, there hasn't been a transfer between them for more than half a century. The animosity between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool certainly plays a part in that, but the fact both clubs have been at the top of the league or thereabouts throughout that period also plays a part. Strengthening your rival whilst weakening yourself is just bad business

 

[Sammy McIlroys fan club]

Frank Stapelton from Arsenal in the early 80s, good player and of course as has been said RVP
Also Berbatov and Carrick from spurs if you count Spurs a top tier side

 

[Maticmaker]

Depends on what you mean by top tier and when were they in the top tier?
My definition to be a top tier club would be ones who have won the CL or old European Cup, more than once.... not just domestic titles
So in the UK that's United, Liverpool and Chelsea, its a wider trawl in other countries of course, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Ajax, Juventus, both Inter and AC Milan, Bayern Munich.

Cannot think of any from UK, obviously RVP from Arsenal (but they haven't won a CL/EC) was valued, at least for one season, you might argue Own Hargreaves from Bayern, but he had injuries lurking and didn't go the full distance for us; all the rest of the big names who came didn't really pay off (except perhaps in shirt sales) and its possible Varane will go the way of Hargreaves in terms of injury issues

Seems 'top tier' teams don't do too much business with us, except to take from us (CR) in particular , but when they do sell us top players, they tend to be ones who are injury prone.

So my answer would be.... very little value!

 

[Loony BoB]

Here's the lists I came up with. Keep a big pinch of salt in the lower tier list as I'm not including bad ones, just the good ones... and there are a lot of bad ones there too. I just feel the risk isn't worth the reward for even considering buying from Real, Barca, Bayern, Juventus at this stage.

All buys from top tier clubs since 2000:
Signings from top clubs, not counting free transfers, since 2000:
Real Madrid: Varane, Di Maria
Bayern Munich: Schweinsteiger, Hargreaves
Juventus: Ronaldo, Pogba

Signings from the next tier of big clubs, since 2000:
Chelsea: Matic, Mata
Arsenal: Sanchez, RVP
Dortmund: Sancho, Mkhitaryan, Kagawa
Athletico: de Gea

Good buys from lower tier clubs since 2000:
Free: Cavani, Ibrahimovic, Owen
Sporting: Bruno, Nani, Ronaldo
Southampton: Shaw
Bilbao: Herrera
Ajax: Blind
Chivas: Chicharito
Wigan: Valencia
Spurs: Berbatov, Carrick
West Ham: Tevez
West Brom: Kuszczak (for a backup keeper, I think he was one of our better ones)
Helsingborg: Larsson (loan)
Spartak Moscow: Vidic
Monaco: Evra
PSV: Park, Ruud
Fulham: VDS
Everton: Rooney
PSG before they were a big money club: Heinze
Leeds: Ferdinand

 

[Oranges038]

Cantona, Cole & RVP are the standouts for me. Hughes coming back from Barca. And Rio, but Leeds were just hitting a downward sprial at that time after being right up there for a few years.

Other than that generally Utd haven't been buying off top clubs. And when they have those players have generally been shite value and delivery on the purch, Veron, ADM, Schweinsteiger, Matic, Mata, Sanchez etc.

 

[Rams]

Eric Cantona anybody? Silly thread..

 

[Dannn411]

Van Persie, Andy Cole, Cantona, Carrick (assuming Spurs are top tier club), Rio.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

Frank Stapelton from Arsenal in the early 80s, good player and of course as has been said RVP
Also Berbatov and Carrick from spurs if you count Spurs a top tier side

We don't. Nobody does except Glaston.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Here's the lists I came up with. Keep a big pinch of salt in the lower tier list as I'm not including bad ones, just the good ones... and there are a lot of bad ones there too. I just feel the risk isn't worth the reward for even considering buying from Real, Barca, Bayern, Juventus at this stage.

All buys from top tier clubs since 2000:
Signings from top clubs, not counting free transfers, since 2000:
Real Madrid: Varane, Di Maria
Bayern Munich: Schweinsteiger, Hargreaves
Juventus: Ronaldo, Pogba

Signings from the next tier of big clubs, since 2000:
Chelsea: Matic, Mata
Arsenal: Sanchez, RVP
Dortmund: Sancho, Mkhitaryan, Kagawa
Athletico: de Gea

Good buys from lower tier clubs since 2000:
Free: Cavani, Ibrahimovic, Owen
Sporting: Bruno, Nani, Ronaldo
Southampton: Shaw
Bilbao: Herrera
Ajax: Blind
Chivas: Chicharito
Wigan: Valencia
Spurs: Berbatov, Carrick
West Ham: Tevez
West Brom: Kuszczak (for a backup keeper, I think he was one of our better ones)
Helsingborg: Larsson (loan)
Spartak Moscow: Vidic
Monaco: Evra
PSV: Park, Ruud
Fulham: VDS
Everton: Rooney
PSG before they were a big money club: Heinze
Leeds: Ferdinand

Di Maria, second most assists in the league his first season in the premier league. Or was it third? Regardless, hard to call him a flop. If he woulda stayed he would still be playing for us imo

 

[SirReginald]

Alan smith from Leeds

 

[AkaAkuma]

City, Pool and Madrids current squads would prove the OPs point.
It would also be a good tactical move to not bail Barcelona out of their mistake in signing De Jong. When we as a club have to sell our mistakes for substantial loses.
I want to support the managers need for de Jong, but it’s foolish to make sure a rare player your primary target in a first season.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

City, Pool and Madrids current squads would prove the OPs point.
It would also be a good tactical move to not bail Barcelona out of their mistake in signing De Jong. When we as a club have to sell our mistakes for substantial loses.
I want to support the managers need for de Jong, but it’s foolish to make sure a rare player your primary target in a first season.

Barcelona didn't make a mistake in signing De Jong.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Barcelona didn't make a mistake in signing De Jong.

I’d say they did. Talented player. But the salary they gave him was far too high due to pressure from PSG and the fact he’s never been played in his strongest position.

 

[Pickle85]

Barcelona didn't make a mistake in signing De Jong.

They seem to think they did, given how frantically they've been trying to offload him.

 

[Siorac]

Eric Cantona anybody? Silly thread..

Who considers Leeds a top tier club? That's even sillier than saying Spurs.

 

[Spaghetti]

Alan smith from Leeds

Leeds were in Division 2 and Alan Smith was rubbish.

 

[Schneckerl]

By definition, the top clubs don't tend to sell to their direct competition. So we haven't sold our best players to those clubs either, Beckham and Ronaldo apart.

Some of the best player of the past decade all made the transfer from one top club to another in their primes. Ronaldo, Luis Suárez, Lewandowski (BVB CL Finalist when he left), Neymar.

 

[abaka]

Would Cole count? That Newcastle side were top tier and a rival in the league.
(Probably should have read the thread, Cole is mentioned a lot)

Hemming Berg from Blackburn. Was a decent player. Not great but not a flop.

I don’t know if I can count RVP. I loved him but his decline after that one season was crazy. If Fergie hadn’t retired and RVP kept his levels. He would absolutely be a success but for me, he’s a one hit wonder for us.

I’m also thinking Cantona from Leeds and Ferdinand from Leeds also.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Cantona
Cole
Rio
RVP

 

[phelans shorts]

Di Maria, second most assists in the league his first season in the premier league. Or was it third? Regardless, hard to call him a flop. If he woulda stayed he would still be playing for us imo

He was also a very expensive bench warmer by the end of his one season. Impossible to say it wasn’t a flop.

Who considers Leeds a top tier club? That's even sillier than saying Spurs.

2001/2 Leeds were a very different prospect to what we see now. They were Champions League semi finalists the year before we signed him, they absolutely count.

 

[youngrell]

Who considers Leeds a top tier club? That's even sillier than saying Spurs.

They were champions of England when we signed Cantona.

 

[Remember the geese]

Silvestre from Inter was a really underrated piece of business.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

Silvestre from Inter was a really underrated piece of business.

Say that name i instantly remember his goals against liverpool. Strangely he had such highs- lows saved by rios excellence. Good catch though.

 

[Bondi77]

This is about our transfer history with specific other clubs, so I'm really unsure if this belongs in the MU forum, the Transfer forum or the general football forum, so please feel free to move the thread if this isn't the right choice. Felt MU forum is probably the best shout but apologies if I got that wrong.

Have we *ever* had any value in buying from a club that is seen to be a top, top level club in the world at the time? Not including free transfers, I'm talking exclusively paid transfers. I was discussing this in the de Jong thread and I almost wonder if we should just set up a policy that we don't even bother asking Real, Barca, Bayern, etc. for their players because they never turn out successes for us. But I thought, hey, maybe I'm overlooking something...

The only good deals I can think of from 'big clubs' in the past 22 years (not bothering going back to the 90s) were RVP and DDG, and we might argue Sancho - but even then, those were purchases from Arsenal, Athletico and Dortmund - not quite Real Madrid, Juventus, Barcelona etc. I think every buy we've made from a big, big club has just not worked out for us and we should seriously consider just avoiding it entirely at all costs from now on. Happy to be proven wrong if and when it happens but it's a gut feeling and I was curious as to what everyone else's thoughts were on this.

Great post, nice to see something a little different and I will have to have a good think about this one.

 

[Remember the geese]

Say that name i instantly remember his goals against liverpool. Strangely he had such highs- lows saved by rios excellence. Good catch though.

He made a few glaring errors, but he was genuinely one of the best left backs in the league at the time. A good centre back too. Had a great ping on him, pace to burn, strong in the air. Think he would have been highly regarded if he was part of this generation.

 

[Marcelinho87]

He was also a very expensive bench warmer by the end of his one season. Impossible to say it wasn’t a flop.

2001/2 Leeds were a very different prospect to what we see now. They were Champions League semi finalists the year before we signed him, they absolutely count.

Rio yeah? Not Cantona.

 

[Dante]

Historically, no.

Fergie only bought two fully developed world class players in his 26 years here: RvP and Veron.

It's only been under Woodward that we shifted to a Galactico policy and bought stars in their prime from top tier clubs.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

He made a few glaring errors, but he was genuinely one of the best left backs in the league at the time. A good centre back too. Had a great ping on him, pace to burn, strong in the air. Think he would have been highly regarded if he was part of this generation.

Yes we were once blessed with so many good fullbacks. Silvestre Oshea Nevilles heinze evra stam Hargreaves brown. Damn we took them for granted.

 

[phelans shorts]

Rio yeah? Not Cantona.

That was Rio, but as another poster mentioned Cantona definitely also fits signing from the league champions.

 

[Siorac]

They were champions of England when we signed Cantona.

So? Leicester were champions of England at one point but no one considers them a top tier club.

The OP was about clubs like Real, Bayern, Juventus - it even expressly names Arsenal and Atlético as second tier clubs that are already an edge case for this thread. And those clubs are far, far bigger than Leeds United.

 

[the hea]

Hargreaves was a very important player in the 07-08 season and helped us win both the CL and the league title that season. I know the rest of his Utd career went downhill very fast from there, due to injuries, but helping us win the double that season should in my opinion still count as good value.

 

[Siorac]

2001/2 Leeds were a very different prospect to what we see now. They were Champions League semi finalists the year before we signed him, they absolutely count.

That still doesn't make them a top tier club. Dynamo Kyiv made the CL semis in 1999 but it doesn't make them on par with Bayern in terms of club stature.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Leeds were in Division 2 and Alan Smith was rubbish.

I love Smudger, even if he was from Leeds. Gave his all, never downed tools.

 

[JeffFromHK]

RVP from Arsenal is the only one I can think of.

It's rare for a top tier football club to sell its most valued assets to a domestic rival. European rivals too but it's less rare.

Take Liverpool and United, there hasn't been a transfer between them for more than half a century. The animosity between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool certainly plays a part in that, but the fact both clubs have been at the top of the league or thereabouts throughout that period also plays a part. Strengthening your rival whilst weakening yourself is just bad business

It depends.
sneijder sold by Real Madrid at 10m
van der vaart sold by Real Madrid at 10m
Robben sold by Real Madrid at 22 m
Thiago sold by Barca at 22m
Kroos sold by Bayern at 22m

* We actually could snatch both players at the same price but we rejected both moves OURSELVES

Buying players is like buying stocks, you can buy players at a value price if the player's current club has underestimated the value of the player, vice versa.

Man Utd in the past 10 years has an extremely poor ability to valuate players, hence it always sell low buy high, i.e. selling Jonny Evans, a player easily worth 15m, at 3m.

 

[Bondi77]

Getting Mark Hughes back from Barcelona was one of the best deals we have ever done.

 

[led_scholes]

Staam from PSV. Not top top tier, but definitely top tier back then.

 

[Bondi77]

Mata would be a 50/50 I suppose.