Has United become a big club with a small club mentality?

[fastwalker]

United are the biggest club in in the Premier League and one of the biggest in the world. Which measure do you want to use? History? Quality of players that have represented the club? Trophies won? Fan base? Brand value? Revenue generation? You name it, United are immense. Look at City today, as successful as they have been in recent years and as successful as they might become in future, it will take a lifetime before they get anywhere near United's success.

But here is the problem, United have become a big club with a small club mindset. Here are five examples of 'small club mentality' that United now exhibit:

• small clubs set themselves a floor not a ceiling - a floor is a level below which you do not want to fall, whilst a ceiling is the level to which you want to rise. Increasingly, the ambitions around United are being set lower and lower. We are aiming for fourth, but preparing to finish fifth and expecting to finish sixth. Constantly lowering expectations and settling for less is a classic sign of small club mentality.

• small clubs constantly making excuses for failure - if you are a small club you can blame your failings on lack of resources, lack of quality and not getting a fair crack of refereeing decisions. Now look at United and see how every possible excuse is being offered for failure. Just take a small sample of comments following the Palace and Southampton games, they are laughable.

• small clubs can't spend, don't spend or find reasons for not spending - just look at United's net spend in the summer window. For a club with the revenue generating potential of United and with realistic expectations that this club should have and with the improvements that need to be made in our first 11 (let alone our squad), a c£70m net spend is negligent.

• small clubs see themselves less relevant - in the grand scheme of things and by dint of size, small clubs see themselves as less relevant than clubs that are bigger. Again, just look at how United fans now talk about our club in the context of City and Liverpool. There is defeatism and resignation. We recognise our success in their failure.

• small clubs look to their last big success not their next great achievement - history is a wonderful thing in football. But when a club spends its time talking more about what it did last and less about what it needs to do next, that is not a good sign. I describe that as the 'Liverpool syndrome'. For years that club spent more time raking over past glories than their ability to create new ones. They became the smallest big club in world football and we are in danger of replacing them.

Any thoughts?

 

[meamth]

United are the biggest club in in the Premier League and one of the biggest in the world. Which measure do you want to use? History? Quality of players that have represented the club? Trophies won? Fan base? Brand value? Revenue generation? You name it, United are immense. Look at City today, as successful as they have been in recent years and as successful as they might become in future, it will take a lifetime before they get anywhere near United's success.

But here is the problem, United have become a big club with a small club mindset. Here are five examples of 'small club mentality' that United now exhibit:

• small clubs set themselves a floor not a ceiling - a floor is a level below which you do not want to fall, whilst a ceiling is the level to which you want to rise. Increasingly, the ambitions around United are being set lower and lower. We are aiming for fourth, but preparing to finish fifth and expecting to finish sixth. Constantly lowering expectations and settling for less is a classic sign of small club mentality.

• small clubs constantly making excuses for failure - if you are a small club you can blame your failings on lack of resources, lack of quality and not getting a fair crack of refereeing decisions. Now look at United and see how every possible excuse is being offered for failure. Just take a small sample of comments following the Palace and Southampton games, they are laughable.

• small clubs can't spend, don't spend or find reasons for not spending - just look at United's net spend in the summer window. For a club with the revenue generating potential of United and with realistic expectations that this club should have and with the improvements that need to be made in our first 11 (let alone our squad), a c£70m net spend is negligent.

• small clubs see themselves less relevant - in the grand scheme of things and by dint of size, small clubs see themselves as less relevant than clubs that are bigger. Again, just look at how United fans now talk about our club in the context of City and Liverpool. There is defeatism and resignation. We recognise our success in their failure.

• small clubs look to their last big success not their next great achievement - history is a wonderful thing in football. But when a club spends its time talking more about what it did last and less about what it needs to do next, that is not a good sign. I describe that as the 'Liverpool syndrome'. For years that club spent more time raking over past glories than their ability to create new ones. They became the smallest big club in world football and we are in danger of replacing them.

Any thoughts?

1. The ambition is always the same, winning the league. Over the years we're outspending, signing world class players to help us achieve that ambition. We failed, so this season we have to change a bit.

2. We made excuses before, now we are taking actions by getting rid of the deadwood. The foundation has been laid and we the rebuilding process is at its early phase. The games we dropped points this season isn't just pure excuses, it was really something doesn't click yet. We're unlucky and punished for it.

3. We can spend and will spend, but this time we're taking a different recruitment approach. Finding the right payers, not just big names. If we're lacking any signings this season it's because we're giving space and freedom for the current backbone to grow.

4. We talk about them because they are our rivals at top, because we should be at the top. We compare them because they ran the club better at the moment, and wondering why can't we achieve the same.

5. Yes we are in danger of becoming Liverpool before their 6th European title. Currently we are still the biggest club in BPL and should be proud of that. We are in danger, but let's hope we can steadily change that now. Patience.

3.

 

[Ballist1x]

No we've become a small club with big club mentality.

How else do you explain over paying for players?

Offering ludicrous contracts to sign old players?

Challenging for Europa cup?

Bringing in low experience managers?

 

[croadyman]

Feels to me like the Utd players and management are constantly full of excuses and are just not critical enough with each other in that dressing room. Until that happens we will keep on rolling out the same stuff after games and nothing will improve in the long term.

 

[romufc]

Feels to me like the Utd players and management are constantly full of excuses and are just not critical enough with each other in that dressing room. Until that happens we will keep on rolling out the same stuff after games and nothing will improve in the long term.

I am surprised you say that because Ole has always maintained that our strikers need to be more ruthless, that is being critical of the strikers saying boys, you need to do better.

He has always been giving constructive criticism in public, I can only imagine in private he is getting at them.

 

[Denis79]

You make very good points and we do keep lowering expectations, atleast within the fanbase. Woody might still demand a top 4 as a minimum, we won't know until the end of the season. My personal belief why we aren't investing enough when compared to our economical strength and ambitions is because we are firstly run for profit, glory comes second.

I believe the Glazers are aware how far off we are from challenging for the league and the amount of investment it would take to get us there and have decided for the Arsenal route, build a team that makes the CL on a constant basis. I say this because I don't buy that crap that Woodward lost faith in Mourinho and decided to cut his funds last summer, because if he did lose faith in him why was he kept on as a manager? It makes Woody look completely incompetent, you don't retain the services of a employee at such an important position if you don't think he'll do the job. What I believe is that the Glazers and Woodward felt that a team that finished second would have no problems finishing 4th and therefore needs minimum investing. Mourinho went bonkers because his narcisism wouldn't let him just settle for a top 4 position and felt the team was too weak to compete with the likes of City. How the drama unfolded we all know too well.

Us fans still live in the days when we fought for every trophy, while the club has shifted to just making the CL as the business model.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

We've just appointed 4 wrong managers, and recruitment has been handled badly.

And now people think that 4 managers is a lot, when it isn't...

Imagine if you had 4 girlfriends and each one was wrong - you wouldn't give up on women or marry the 4th one because she 'deserves time', or at least you shouldn't!

If you went back and simply appointed a Pochettino, an Allegri or a Klopp and then gave them 250m over a few windows Utd would be fine.

It's the cluelessness of the Glazers and the ridiculously sentimental fanbase that is preventing the simple and easy path to success being taken.

 

[Shane88]

When you have the official website signing off on pathetic propaganda like this you know the club is fecked...

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...rt-has-been-better-than-our-position-suggests

We get enough shit as it is from rival fans without the club itself adding to the fire with this alternate table bollocks. We were laughing at RAWK years ago for doing this stuff.

 

[jem]

United are the biggest club in in the Premier League and one of the biggest in the world. Which measure do you want to use? History? Quality of players that have represented the club? Trophies won? Fan base? Brand value? Revenue generation? You name it, United are immense. Look at City today, as successful as they have been in recent years and as successful as they might become in future, it will take a lifetime before they get anywhere near United's success.

But here is the problem, United have become a big club with a small club mindset. Here are five examples of 'small club mentality' that United now exhibit:

• small clubs set themselves a floor not a ceiling - a floor is a level below which you do not want to fall, whilst a ceiling is the level to which you want to rise. Increasingly, the ambitions around United are being set lower and lower. We are aiming for fourth, but preparing to finish fifth and expecting to finish sixth. Constantly lowering expectations and settling for less is a classic sign of small club mentality.

• small clubs constantly making excuses for failure - if you are a small club you can blame your failings on lack of resources, lack of quality and not getting a fair crack of refereeing decisions. Now look at United and see how every possible excuse is being offered for failure. Just take a small sample of comments following the Palace and Southampton games, they are laughable.

• small clubs can't spend, don't spend or find reasons for not spending - just look at United's net spend in the summer window. For a club with the revenue generating potential of United and with realistic expectations that this club should have and with the improvements that need to be made in our first 11 (let alone our squad), a c£70m net spend is negligent.

• small clubs see themselves less relevant - in the grand scheme of things and by dint of size, small clubs see themselves as less relevant than clubs that are bigger. Again, just look at how United fans now talk about our club in the context of City and Liverpool. There is defeatism and resignation. We recognise our success in their failure.

• small clubs look to their last big success not their next great achievement - history is a wonderful thing in football. But when a club spends its time talking more about what it did last and less about what it needs to do next, that is not a good sign. I describe that as the 'Liverpool syndrome'. For years that club spent more time raking over past glories than their ability to create new ones. They became the smallest big club in world football and we are in danger of replacing them.

Any thoughts?

To be honest, most of the points (outside of the spending one, which is flawed given Mourinho's expenditures and the wages we hand out,) seem to be more about the fans (or more specifically fans on Redcafe) than about the team. Where has Ole ever said that he expects to finish sixth? The excuses point seems to be addressing posters on here, as does the viewing of the club in the context of City and Liverpool. The last point about our history doesn't really ring true either - sure we have exhibitions with legends coming back, but I'm pretty sure that's normal for any team, in any sport.

 

[liamp]

No, I think we're a big club in 2019 that runs itself like a big club in 1999

 

[ash_86]

Unless we realize the actual situation we cannot move ahead. We are a team that finishes closer to midtable than to the top. Our expectations has to be revised similar to that. Thinking of title like in our current state is delusion. First is to accept where we are in the table and how we got there. It's not a one season blip or anything. It's because of a series of wrong decisions and buying players that don't want to be here. Second is to get a set of good upcoming players that really want to play for United. Third we start getting into top 4 consistently and perform well in the cup competitions. Finally we can challenge for the title like a proper big club.

 

[SAFMUTD]

There’s no such thing as a big club with a small club mentality. We are not a big club anymore, we are an historical club like Milan or Arsenal. We can’t attract the top talents and we haven’t challenged for any top title, never mind winning, for several years now.

We’ve became a medium club that no one in their right mind will include as a serious aspirant to any major title.

Of course we may come back to being competitive club but the true big clubs don’t allow themselves to fail so bad for so long, at least not this way when our management seem so comfortable with failure.

By big clubs I mean Madrid, Bayern, Barca, Juve. The real big clubs, can anyone imagine those clubs acting the way we are under our circumstances?

 

[GBBQ]

If you went back and simply appointed a Pochettino, an Allegri or a Klopp and then gave them 250m over a few windows Utd would be fine.

And the thing is, given the fact the league resets each year, such an approach can work at any time. As long as we have the money we have the potential to get the right people in and become a powerhouse. We're not like Leicester where they needed to unearth gems and have everything to fall into place to win a league, we could potentially turn things round as quickly as Klopp has to turn an unbalanced team into world beaters.

obviously a lot has to change in the decision making department for that to work but our global appeal and financial muscle means a return to form is only ever a couple of windows away.

 

[edcunited1878]

There’s no such thing as a big club with a small club mentality. We are not a big club anymore, we are an historical club like Milan or Arsenal. We can’t attract the top talents and we haven’t challenged for any top title, never mind winning, for several years now.

We’ve became a medium club that no one in their right mind will include as a serious aspirant to any major title.

Of course we may come back to being competitive club but the true big clubs don’t allow themselves to fail so bad for so long, at least not this way when our management seem so comfortable with failure.

By big clubs I mean Madrid, Bayern, Barca, Juve. The real big clubs, can anyone imagine those clubs acting the way we are under our circumstances?

Those big clubs you listed are totally dominant in their domestic leagues because they have disproportionate resources that skew in their favor which allow them to be near untouchable. When was the last time Juve won the CL? Liverpool won one trophy, before last year, the past 7 or 8 years...so that made them a small club?

Barca, Bayern and Madrid have had their share of issues the past few years from recruitment, managerial issues, etc. What allows them to 'overcome' most issues, especially compared to United, is that they are willing and able to rectify most situations rather quickly and their first teams have a core group of players that they rely on when changes are being made.

United are still a very big club with high standards. However, recent history has brought a huge sense of reality and dysfunction from the owners to the pitch.

United have to earn their way back up the table through all phases of football. Everyone at the club has to be so much better at what they do.

 

[bosnian_red]

The ambition is always to win the league. Unfortunately we are far away from that and know that it isnt something that can be solved in 1 summer, so you take it 1 step at a time and outline a plan of how you'll get back to the top. Its just being realistic about the situation.

 

[bosnian_red]

There’s no such thing as a big club with a small club mentality. We are not a big club anymore, we are an historical club like Milan or Arsenal. We can’t attract the top talents and we haven’t challenged for any top title, never mind winning, for several years now.

We’ve became a medium club that no one in their right mind will include as a serious aspirant to any major title.

Of course we may come back to being competitive club but the true big clubs don’t allow themselves to fail so bad for so long, at least not this way when our management seem so comfortable with failure.

By big clubs I mean Madrid, Bayern, Barca, Juve. The real big clubs, can anyone imagine those clubs acting the way we are under our circumstances?

Juve went 9 years without winning the title in the 2000's (technically).
Real Madrid won the title once in the past 7 seasons.
Bayern have had shit years in the past but because of the difference in funds, they bounce back easily and quickly.

All these teams went through periods of being a lot worse in Europe as well. Every club and league goes through cycles. We were dominant for 20 years. We're now going through a low period. Liverpool is at their best point for 30 years now, but where were they for the past 30 years? It happens. No team can sustain dominance forever without down periods if the league has a relatively even dispersement of resources between clubs.

 

[izzydiggler]

United are a massive, behemoth of a club - one of the world's top ones...but just in terms of generating money - as a football club, they haven't been close to challenging for a title in over 6 years and are done as a member of Europe's 'Elite'.

United are what we used to laugh at - a richer version of 90's Liverpool and the Arsenal team celebrating 4th place like winning the league. The club is mis-managed from top to bottom, without any vision, competence or leadership, right through all levels of the club. I think anyone expecting a return to being the great club we were are going to have to wait a really long time.

 

[Raw]

United are what we used to laugh at - a richer version of 90's Liverpool and the Arsenal team celebrating 4th place like winning the league

Not to mention mocking Chelsea for constantly sacking managers, or City for spending far too much on shit players. Karma is smashing us at the moment

 

[romufc]

The ambition is always to win the league. Unfortunately we are far away from that and know that it isnt something that can be solved in 1 summer, so you take it 1 step at a time and outline a plan of how you'll get back to the top. Its just being realistic about the situation.

Unfortunately, No one will understand this and expect things to be solved.
A lot of fans have never played football on a regular basis hence the failure to understand that getting rid of 7/8 players and getting 5/6 in and getting them to gel is not easy.

Firstly, the club needs a way of playing football, an identity.
Secondly, all the players have to buy into this identity and players brought in would be for specific roles. I.e AWB, Maguire and James all have specific roles.

In the past, we have bought players and tried to accomodate them. I.e Sanchez

Finally, it takes alot of work in the training ground to get players to play with each other, working on different plays etc.

 

[manunited1919]

When you have the official website signing off on pathetic propaganda like this you know the club is fecked...

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...rt-has-been-better-than-our-position-suggests

We get enough shit as it is from rival fans without the club itself adding to the fire with this alternate table bollocks. We were laughing at RAWK years ago for doing this stuff.

Unbelievable

 

[Marcelinho87]

No we just became a shit football club at the expense of a commercial power house.

 

[izzydiggler]

When you have the official website signing off on pathetic propaganda like this you know the club is fecked...

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...rt-has-been-better-than-our-position-suggests

We get enough shit as it is from rival fans without the club itself adding to the fire with this alternate table bollocks. We were laughing at RAWK years ago for doing this stuff.

I think a lot of fans just want to have positivity spoon fed to them, rather than face reality. Look in all the summer transfer threads (and also ones criticising anybody at the club) and you see the tune change from "it's bollocks" that we'll spend £100m or not replace players leaving to "it's part of the master plan".

My favourite story was how the Glazers "have bought into Ole's vision of youth" over costly experienced, proven players...I spat out my metaphorical drink when I read that but again people lap it up and go along with it. Said it earlier but we look like 90's Liverpool fans at the minute saying "next year is our year". Everyone else is laughing at us.

If you aren't worried about the club's direction and think it's all going to plan, then IMO you aren't looking hard enough.

 

[romufc]

I think a lot of fans just want to have positivity spoon fed to them, rather than face reality. Look in all the summer transfer threads (and also ones criticising anybody at the club) and you see the tune change from "it's bollocks" that we'll spend £100m or not replace players leaving to "it's part of the master plan".

My favourite story was how the Glazers "have bought into Ole's vision of youth" over costly experienced, proven players...I spat out my metaphorical drink when I read that but again people lap it up and go along with it. Said it earlier but we look like 90's Liverpool fans at the minute saying "next year is our year". Everyone else is laughing at us.

If you aren't worried about the club's direction and think it's all going to plan, then IMO you aren't looking hard enough.

The problem is I don't think we are like the 90's of Liverpool. We all know next year won't be our year either.

I am very concerned about the clubs future. We have changed managers, players and it has not had an effect.

When you can point a finger at something saying the manger is the problem or the players are, that can be fixed. However, at Manutd no one knows what the problems are which is why we are seeing the threads of Ole out, Pogba is the problem, Woodward out, Glazers out.

IMO I think Woodward has been a problem, the club need to hire a DoF who will be the main man all matters football.

Step 1. Identify what Manutd, pressing football, high intensity
Step 2. Only recruit players who fit that bill
Step 3. We have to become ruthless, Perreira, Lingard have all had chances failed = out you go

This is not an overnight project. It will take 2/3 years before we see some results.

 

[Zen86]

Not to mention mocking Chelsea for constantly sacking managers, or City for spending far too much on shit players. Karma is smashing us at the moment

Indeed. They must’ve absolutely hated us up high in our ivory tower

 

[izzydiggler]

The problem is I don't think we are like the 90's of Liverpool. We all know next year won't be our year either.

IMO I think Woodward has been a problem, the club need to hire a DoF who will be the main man all matters football.

Step 1. Identify what Manutd, pressing football, high intensity
Step 2. Only recruit players who fit that bill
Step 3. We have to become ruthless, Perreira, Lingard have all had chances failed = out you go

This is not an overnight project. It will take 2/3 years before we see some results.

Our problem is that we have mediocrity throughout the club - leech owners, a useless CEO that doesn't know anything about football, a poor squad, an in-experienced manager that wouldn't be close to the job he's in, had he not played for us...everything screams 'poor'.

What we do have over others is the potential to outspend on transfers/wages and the name/history - problem is that the name is fading rapidly and good players won't want to join a team that has no hope in challenging, with a manager that seems out of his depth and could be sacked soon (certainly isn't the draw a Pep/Klopp has). We were told we wouldn't believe who wanted to join us...either that was rubbish or we weren't willing to spend (I suspect both). So take away the financial muscle and decent team and we are not an attractive proposition at all.

As for your steps, if we weren't trying to recruit players that fit the bill before, then I'd be even more worried....I mean, which club doesn't do that?!? We've also been getting rid of players that weren't good enough for a long time too...getting rid of Schneiderlin, Falcao, Schweinsteiger etc didn't make us magically better and neither will Darmian and Smalling leaving. Ultimately the attitude of "We are Manchester United" just doesn't have the weight it did. Frankly without us throwing money, we are left in the position that every other club is in...hoping that youth players step up and the ability to unearth gems that aren't household names. Thing is, that's what Everton/Leicester forums will be saying and every single club in the PL are trying to do. The way our club is run gives me absolutely zero confidence that it's all going to work out - I like the signings we made but I also rate a lot of the signings other clubs have made...we did nowhere near enough IMO and we don't have the ambition to challenge City/Liverpool. As long as the club is generating money, I don't see things changing at the top, so this fabled rebuild will not happen for a long time.

 

[Leftback99]

No we just have lots of fans that can't handle that we aren't winning every game in our current state and have zero patience for things to improve.

 

[fps]

Fans of all clubs are all the same. If the team's not winning there's a toxic impotent element that lashes out and anything and everyone. No set of fans is bigger than this, there are just some fans who win more, and of course associate the performances of all those highly paid foreigners on the pitch with themselves, so feel better about themselves.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Yes. Im sick of the excuses. But we hired the wrong manager- excuse. But new manager needs time- excuse. Because players are still young - excuse. Because right players were not available - excuse. Because it takes time to build a team - excuse. But we spent a lot of money - excuse.
I could go on for pages and pages. Excuses dont matter. Its not acceptable. Fix it. Move on.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Juve went 9 years without winning the title in the 2000's (technically).
Real Madrid won the title once in the past 7 seasons.
Bayern have had shit years in the past but because of the difference in funds, they bounce back easily and quickly.

All these teams went through periods of being a lot worse in Europe as well. Every club and league goes through cycles. We were dominant for 20 years. We're now going through a low period. Liverpool is at their best point for 30 years now, but where were they for the past 30 years? It happens. No team can sustain dominance forever without down periods if the league has a relatively even dispersement of resources between clubs.

First I have to say that I dont consider Liverpool a big club, I consider them an historical important club. They have to continue they good form for some years for me to consider them a top club, right now its just a good patch after winning the UCL.

Now regarding the others;

Juve went 9 years without winning the league but before the fraud scandal they never end lower than 3rd in the league. Their situation is special since they got a really rough patch when they were relegated to Serie B and lost a bunch of players, but they bounce back in only 4 seasons.

Madrid has won the league 1 time in 7 seasons, but they usually get the second place and never had fallen more than the third place, and uhm yeah I dont know if you noticed they've won 4 champions leagues in the last 6 years.

Bayern are you serious? they have won 15 bundesliga titles in the last 20 years...maybe you are talking about their huge crisis from 2010-2012 whey they end up 2nd and 3rd.

Our average position for the last 6 years hasnt even been top 4, and most important than that we are not even competing or bulding ourselves to compete. The difference between those clubs and us is the ambition.

Madrid won 3 straight champions leagues, they failed in the UCL last season and end up 2nd in the league so what do they do? they spent 300 millions this summer.
Juventus has won 7 straight leagues and what did they do? they bought Ronaldo, Ramsey, Pellegrini, De Ligt...
Bayern has won god knows how many straight bundesliga titles and they didnt even spent that much or change their squad and still had a better summer than us buying Lucas Hernandez, Pavard, Coutinho, Perisic, etc.

The reality is those clubs have different standard than us, their deffinition of crisis is very different from us. You wont ever see a manager of Madrid, Bayern or Juventus saying that top 4 is the goal.

 

[SaintMuppet]

For a return to anything like past glories we need 2 things:

New owners.

An utterly ruthless manager who will clean the decks and take no prisoners.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Those big clubs you listed are totally dominant in their domestic leagues because they have disproportionate resources that skew in their favor which allow them to be near untouchable. When was the last time Juve won the CL? Liverpool won one trophy, before last year, the past 7 or 8 years...so that made them a small club?

Barca, Bayern and Madrid have had their share of issues the past few years from recruitment, managerial issues, etc. What allows them to 'overcome' most issues, especially compared to United, is that they are willing and able to rectify most situations rather quickly and their first teams have a core group of players that they rely on when changes are being made.

United are still a very big club with high standards. However, recent history has brought a huge sense of reality and dysfunction from the owners to the pitch.

United have to earn their way back up the table through all phases of football. Everyone at the club has to be so much better at what they do.

Since we are, or used to be, the richest club in the world I would expect us to be if not totally dominant, at least contending. Regarding Liverpool I mentioned on my other post I consider them an important historical club but not a top club for now, they must continue their good form for me to consider them a top club.

Regarding the last time Juve or Bayern won the UCL, is not just about winning. Is about competing, Barcelona hasnt won the champions league in a few years not even getting into the final but who would dare to not call them a top club? same as Juve and Bayern they compete. You can never discard those teams, of course there's only one champion so they cant all win it but they are aspirants. Every year you know they have a chance.

As I said in my other post, the difference is our ambition, our standard is very differnte from theirs. I dont buy that "United are still a very big club with high standards" what club with high standards would have only bought Fred and Dalot after ending second in the league and eliminated in round of 16 in the UCL? what club with high standards would had desmantled the team without getting backups after ending 6th in the league like we did?

The truth is we want our team to be ambitious, since historically it had been but the present is very different now. The owners goal is to get top 4 and no top club aspire to end up in any other position that 1st.

 

[fastwalker]

To be honest, most of the points (outside of the spending one, which is flawed given Mourinho's expenditures and the wages we hand out,) seem to be more about the fans (or more specifically fans on Redcafe) than about the team. Where has Ole ever said that he expects to finish sixth? The excuses point seems to be addressing posters on here, as does the viewing of the club in the context of City and Liverpool. The last point about our history doesn't really ring true either - sure we have exhibitions with legends coming back, but I'm pretty sure that's normal for any team, in any sport.

But surely, aren't fans the most important part of any club? Where would the revenue generating potential of United be without fans? Where would the prestige of playing at Old Trafford be without fans? Where would the global brand value of United be without fans? I would strongly argue that the reason why Ole is 'at the wheel' is because of our fans (an attempt by the board to appease us). I would add that whilst the views expressed here, definitely do reflect those of fans, more specifically they reflect views expressed by many former United players, contributors to fan channels and supporters on the terraces.

In response to your question, nowhere does my OP say that Ole expects to finish sixth? I have no idea what Ole's end of season expectations might be. The reference to where United might finish is based on views that have been expressed by former players, vloggers, bloggers and supporters themselves. These are a matter of public record. Surely you are not disputing them?

 

[edcunited1878]

Since we are, or used to be, the richest club in the world I would expect us to be if not totally dominant, at least contending. Regarding Liverpool I mentioned on my other post I consider them an important historical club but not a top club for now, they must continue their good form for me to consider them a top club.

Regarding the last time Juve or Bayern won the UCL, is not just about winning. Is about competing, Barcelona hasnt won the champions league in a few years not even getting into the final but who would dare to not call them a top club? same as Juve and Bayern they compete. You can never discard those teams, of course there's only one champion so they cant all win it but they are aspirants. Every year you know they have a chance.

As I said in my other post, the difference is our ambition, our standard is very differnte from theirs. I dont buy that "United are still a very big club with high standards" what club with high standards would have only bought Fred and Dalot after ending second in the league and eliminated in round of 16 in the UCL? what club with high standards would had desmantled the team without getting backups after ending 6th in the league like we did?

The truth is we want our team to be ambitious, since historically it had been but the present is very different now. The owners goal is to get top 4 and no top club aspire to end up in any other position that 1st.

Fans who have lived through the past 10 years understand the club's standards and I agree it hasn't change (i.e. fans want the club to take all the necessary steps to win the league). But when ownership and your CEO say one thing, then act another way, does that mean my ambitions as a fan change? No. The reality of it is quite simple. The goal of the ownership/CEO, manager/coaches/players and supports are not aligned. It may have been aligned the past couple of years post-SAF, but there is zero alignment/vision continuity that has existed for more than 3 years.

The fall of United has been quicker and harsher compared to those teams you listed because the PL is ruthless in terms of financial resources that make the league competitive and you have to build or sustain from one season to another. On top of that, when you have a CEO who operates how he does, the problem(s) are compounded. If United come out and say we want to change the dynamic of the club and go with younger, talented, but unproven players and to hell with wage breaking transfers, save for obvious first team positions that we're lacking, then cool. But you can't have your cake and eat it too if you're not willing to invest properly on/off the pitch, give time/patience to coaches and players, etc. knowing that the end goal, regardless of one year or a few years, is to compete for the title.

United are slowly building under Ole. This has to continue until every deadwood is cleared out and players are put into positions to grow and improve, all while knowing United are still short-handed in at least two first XI positions (RF/RW and CM). I don't trust Woodward in giving Ole the necessary time to develop and build. Results have to be pushed to the side for now and have to focus on player development and performance. That is the reality of it. United have been in shambles when you look how it's been run. Big team, yes. Playing below their standard, yes. At the end of this all, United have to earn their way back up the mountain. United are a big club struggling to get back to the top. It's not a club with small mentality, it's just the reality of it all.

 

[MVBDX]

When you have the official website signing off on pathetic propaganda like this you know the club is fecked...

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...rt-has-been-better-than-our-position-suggests

We get enough shit as it is from rival fans without the club itself adding to the fire with this alternate table bollocks. We were laughing at RAWK years ago for doing this stuff.

Opinion pieces like that on the official website?

I mean, he might even be right, but the official website shouldn't be the place for that.

 

[MuranoLover]

The truth is that I am really worried about us.

The mentality that was winning matches for us is completely gone.

I have not imagined that it would be this difficult to find the way after the Great Man decided to leave.

 

[edgar allan]

For a return to anything like past glories we need 2 things:

New owners.

An utterly ruthless manager who will clean the decks and take no prisoners.

Ole has done a good impression of the ruthless part clearing out some of the overpaid and under-performing players......we just forgot to replace them

 

[SAFMUTD]

Fans who have lived through the past 10 years understand the club's standards and I agree it hasn't change (i.e. fans want the club to take all the necessary steps to win the league). But when ownership and your CEO say one thing, then act another way, does that mean my ambitions as a fan change? No. The reality of it is quite simple. The goal of the ownership/CEO, manager/coaches/players and supports are not aligned. It may have been aligned the past couple of years post-SAF, but there is zero alignment/vision continuity that has existed for more than 3 years.

The fall of United has been quicker and harsher compared to those teams you listed because the PL is ruthless in terms of financial resources that make the league competitive and you have to build or sustain from one season to another. On top of that, when you have a CEO who operates how he does, the problem(s) are compounded. If United come out and say we want to change the dynamic of the club and go with younger, talented, but unproven players and to hell with wage breaking transfers, save for obvious first team positions that we're lacking, then cool. But you can't have your cake and eat it too if you're not willing to invest properly on/off the pitch, give time/patience to coaches and players, etc. knowing that the end goal, regardless of one year or a few years, is to compete for the title.

United are slowly building under Ole. This has to continue until every deadwood is cleared out and players are put into positions to grow and improve, all while knowing United are still short-handed in at least two first XI positions (RF/RW and CM). I don't trust Woodward in giving Ole the necessary time to develop and build. Results have to be pushed to the side for now and have to focus on player development and performance. That is the reality of it. United have been in shambles when you look how it's been run. Big team, yes. Playing below their standard, yes. At the end of this all, United have to earn their way back up the mountain. United are a big club struggling to get back to the top. It's not a club with small mentality, it's just the reality of it all.

The thing is we have no clear direction or plan, that plan is made by the DOF with the club vision and following that plan is how the manager and players are chosen. If the manager or players fail you change them but the plan continues, thats the way top clubs work.

But us? we rely on what the manager in turn wants and modify the squad according to him, LVG wanted possesion so lets buy a bunch of players according to his requirements. Didnt work out? ok now lets hire a completely different manager in Mourinho, now he wants a target man so lets get rid of all LVG players that dont work out for him and lets buy Mourinho a completely different set of players, didnt work out again? ok now lets hire Ole and get rid of all Mourinho's players and target the young hungry ones.

Thats our problem, each player we buy under a manager becomes deadwood for the next one. Because we dont have a clear plan of what we want, as long as this club remains without a capable DOF that really structures the rebuild the failures will remain.

Is just a matter of time before Ole is fired and we hire a new manager who will start the rebuild (again) and the cycle will continue.

 

[Hughie77]

It's being run awful! That's the issues, we got, ok start to this season has not been great, but the performances are better, results could or should have been better?
It's a long road where on, at least another 2 Windows to get players in, also these young ones we got to get the experience needed?

Also be big club, but better on field issues to be sorted ie Woodward !

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Everything points to Woodward yet he remains seemingly impervious to the glazers while they benefit financially. When was the last time a glazer even watched a game. Unless we stumble into some miracle we are in for a bad swinging 20s I think.

 

[edcunited1878]

The thing is we have no clear direction or plan, that plan is made by the DOF with the club vision and following that plan is how the manager and players are chosen. If the manager or players fail you change them but the plan continues, thats the way top clubs work.

But us? we rely on what the manager in turn wants and modify the squad according to him, LVG wanted possesion so lets buy a bunch of players according to his requirements. Didnt work out? ok now lets hire a completely different manager in Mourinho, now he wants a target man so lets get rid of all LVG players that dont work out for him and lets buy Mourinho a completely different set of players, didnt work out again? ok now lets hire Ole and get rid of all Mourinho's players and target the young hungry ones.

Thats our problem, each player we buy under a manager becomes deadwood for the next one. Because we dont have a clear plan of what we want, as long as this club remains without a capable DOF that really structures the rebuild the failures will remain.

Is just a matter of time before Ole is fired and we hire a new manager who will start the rebuild (again) and the cycle will continue.

United's problem is Woodward. He's insanely inept. The club doesn't have a small mentality, it has an incompetent running things. Stick to a plan and strategy that is able to overcome the in's and out's of the business. But he's completely void of this concept. We can understand if he had a couple years, but it's been too long for him not to establish and stick to any clear strategy that is beneficial to the long-term health of the club.