TBF he started to loosen up the strings more once he found out playing 2 DMs was not going to get him anywhere. The FA Cup run was quite entertaining in the end.
Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Getting to the point where I would prefer LVG. At least we could pass the ball and the whole club wasn't at war with itself. Not that he's good enough either though.
Hope we go for Jardim or Poch. Both have Utd DNA. Good with young players and play the game the right way.
Hope we go for Jardim or Poch. Both have Utd DNA. Good with young players and play the game the right way.
The question is, Have we significantly improved since...?, not: Did we significantly improve in the 17/18 season?
Given that Jose added Zlatan, Pogba and Bailly to LVG's squad and won only 69 pts in 16/17, the improvement wasn't significant. Last season it was significant in terms of points. But this season may take us back to Moyesy levels of shitness. So, the answer is anything but clear.
Given that Jose added Zlatan, Pogba and Bailly to LVG's squad and won only 69 pts in 16/17, the improvement wasn't significant. Last season it was significant in terms of points. But this season may take us back to Moyesy levels of shitness. So, the answer is anything but clear.
If Bailly was on form, I would be (or I'd say just Lindelof), but he isn't, so I'm not.
Tuanzebe and TFM probably could have been as good as Bailly is now had they been given the same chances. It's safe to say they'd have been BETTER than Lindelof.
Or should SAF have bought Zanetti, Thuram or Panucci in 1995? All better than Red Nev at their peak, and the first two had better careers. Or Overmars v Beckham.
Dude. Answer the question. Don''t give me deflections. There is no array of tactics to compensate for the grievous holes of a dead right flank and a shaky defence, when you want to succeed whilst entertaining.
What does this mean? Are draws part of the stats? Are draws not included? I think you need to show win and draw percentage to give a fair comparison.
Are these stats about PL games only or include also Fergie's pre-PL years at United?
I somehow doubt that Jose has won on average more PL games than Fergie. He won only 18 PL games season 16/17.
On average, Jose has won 75 pts per season so far. That's far worse than Fergie's United.
What is the Utd DNA? You've arguably had one successful manager in the last 50 years.
The percentage of games they won while manager of Man Utd.
No, it’s win percentage from Wikipedia. Feel free to compile the draw stats if you think it will add to the picture.
I believe it’s all competitive games as manager.
Atm no but we are in such a bad run of form. Generally though I think we have, on paper anyway.
Hear hear.
No, not saying he'd win the League, but if LvG had this current squad at his disposal he'd scare the crap out of City(and Liverpool)this season.
I always though LVG played the most dull football but even his words, no once can deny that he had a style or "philosophy". It's not a style which Jose could help evolve, if anything, he's went completely the opposite. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but since LVG was sacked, I think United would have been best suited to a manager who was progressive in style of play which I think would have been an easier transition for United players.
Hmm...looking back at it, with the current performances to compare it against, at least we had a philosophy, a style of football. Even if it was slow and boring at times, it was better than the shambolic mess we play nowadays and Martial and Rashford were coming on leaps and bounds.
Why was this bumped? Answer is still yes.
You spelt “bore” wrong.
All these improvements are worth absolutely nothing if the club is going backwards. In a literal sense yes they are improvements but weak ones. I mean if thats how we are to highlight we are improving then we are in trouble. Looking at everything on the whole, considering the money we spent, I fail to see where we have improved, but whats worse is I don't see any scope or anything that makes me think we have turned a corner, which funnily enough was the feeling with LVG . The squad has improved in personnel but we still play gash. It actually looks like were going backwards.
Our defence isn't as shaky as people make it. This is the most knee jerk bollix I've seen here. And the dead right flank, how many transfer windows have we gone without addressing it?
I think the answer is a matter of opinion rather than stats. People get too boged down on the numbers and forget everything that surrounds it. I think points wise yes we have been better, goals probably so and defence probably so. The way we play is not better and in my opinion probably worse than gaal. We have zero identity under Jose. The atmosphere in the changing room (assumption alert) is probably worse but then again I'm not so clear on the feelings when Gaal went. The quality of players we have bought in (regardless of current form) is much better, matic pogba and lukaku are great players. Before that, only di Maria got me off my seat.
As a whole it really depends on how you judge it. My opinion is mixed, i feel we have produced better results but our identity (in terms of how we play) is nowhere better. Results for me obviously come first but it can be a very short term thing too. We don't focus so much these days on long term strategy and that is building a post Fergie way of play that excites the United fans but also the neutrals. At the moment we are the joke club of the EPL.
As a whole it really depends on how you judge it. My opinion is mixed, i feel we have produced better results but our identity (in terms of how we play) is nowhere better. Results for me obviously come first but it can be a very short term thing too. We don't focus so much these days on long term strategy and that is building a post Fergie way of play that excites the United fans but also the neutrals. At the moment we are the joke club of the EPL.
I think we have slightly yes.
But Difficult time for the club. We are currently paying most heavily for poor recruitment from LVG and Moyes. Signed one or two players who are good enough under LVG, none under Moyes. Add that to a squad that Fergie would have had to rebuild and we have problems there. Would love to have seen Fergie stay and have the 700 million over 5/6 years that we’ve spent. Or would like to have seen a different manager who had a clue about recruitment get all of that, my suspicion is we’d have a good back 4 and a right winger by now. And none of Darmian, Mata, Rojo, Fellaini, Shaw, Jones, Young and Valencia any more, would have been replaced or phased out. Our youth teams also have been performing poorly and not producing much first team material.
At the same time, Premier League has shifted. As well as becoming a rich boys playground for ownerships, On top of that the fact that TV money has got to the point where mid table premier league teams can spend 150 million a transfer window if they like, and many can now compete for the same bracket of player, we can’t rely on our global fanbase, shirt sales and sponsorships to dominate the league anymore. No more starting the season saying ‘Man Utd will win the league, maybe Arsenal if they are lucky’ or later on after 2004 ‘Man Utd or Chelsea this year?’.
SAF was our first great and long lasting manager since Busby and we should remember between them the late 70’s and 80’s when we were crud, played in the second tier at one stage and went through a shed load of managers, even big Ron haha.
Thing is SAF wasn’t going to Be here forever and we need to stop comparing everything to him and his class of 92 team or his Rooney and Ronaldo teams or we are going to be forever disappointed.
Think the club needs some stability. DoF wouldn’t go amiss, some action plans on the youth teams, and a stable manager who can give the team some sort of identity again, bring the fans together behind what’s going on on the pitch and build a squad of exciting youngish players again.
I’m not really pro or anti mourinho but I feel at this point he’s not the man for the job that needs doing. At the same time if we just sack him and appoint the first man available that’s not going to fix the underlying problems either.
But Difficult time for the club. We are currently paying most heavily for poor recruitment from LVG and Moyes. Signed one or two players who are good enough under LVG, none under Moyes. Add that to a squad that Fergie would have had to rebuild and we have problems there. Would love to have seen Fergie stay and have the 700 million over 5/6 years that we’ve spent. Or would like to have seen a different manager who had a clue about recruitment get all of that, my suspicion is we’d have a good back 4 and a right winger by now. And none of Darmian, Mata, Rojo, Fellaini, Shaw, Jones, Young and Valencia any more, would have been replaced or phased out. Our youth teams also have been performing poorly and not producing much first team material.
At the same time, Premier League has shifted. As well as becoming a rich boys playground for ownerships, On top of that the fact that TV money has got to the point where mid table premier league teams can spend 150 million a transfer window if they like, and many can now compete for the same bracket of player, we can’t rely on our global fanbase, shirt sales and sponsorships to dominate the league anymore. No more starting the season saying ‘Man Utd will win the league, maybe Arsenal if they are lucky’ or later on after 2004 ‘Man Utd or Chelsea this year?’.
SAF was our first great and long lasting manager since Busby and we should remember between them the late 70’s and 80’s when we were crud, played in the second tier at one stage and went through a shed load of managers, even big Ron haha.
Thing is SAF wasn’t going to Be here forever and we need to stop comparing everything to him and his class of 92 team or his Rooney and Ronaldo teams or we are going to be forever disappointed.
Think the club needs some stability. DoF wouldn’t go amiss, some action plans on the youth teams, and a stable manager who can give the team some sort of identity again, bring the fans together behind what’s going on on the pitch and build a squad of exciting youngish players again.
I’m not really pro or anti mourinho but I feel at this point he’s not the man for the job that needs doing. At the same time if we just sack him and appoint the first man available that’s not going to fix the underlying problems either.
Style-wise, I would say it's pretty similar (in terms of being boring to watch), though we have re-found the ability to mount some stirring comebacks (especially last season). This was something that we had completely lost under LvG. I no longer feel that we are completely out of the game, even at 2 down, and a lot of that is down to Mourinho.
In quantitative terms (league position etc), then definitely yes. I don't see how anyone can argue that.
However, is this improvement worth Mourinho's antics and the general ill-feeling at the club? Pretty subjective and my personal opinion is a '60/40' no.
In quantitative terms (league position etc), then definitely yes. I don't see how anyone can argue that.
However, is this improvement worth Mourinho's antics and the general ill-feeling at the club? Pretty subjective and my personal opinion is a '60/40' no.
Yes.
We're miles better. The squad is significantly better balanced, and the players are significantly better suited to PL football.
Had Mourinho joined us as the new manager today, he'd be be capable of making this United a serious contender on all fronts. Unfortunately for him, he's managed to build the squad only to end up losing the dressing room.
As such, it's not that he's done a bad job. It's just that he's exhausted all his goodwill in bringing us this far.
It's rare for a single manager to build an empire, then take it on to greatness. Fergie was a one off. Mourinho looks like he was only able to do the first bit, but will struggle to carry that momentum through to second.
Once he finally leaves Old Trafford, he'll have objectively had a decent stint as manager, all things considered.
By contrast, LvG took us backwards and was on the road to ruining the squad. The two managers aren't comparable at all.
We're miles better. The squad is significantly better balanced, and the players are significantly better suited to PL football.
Had Mourinho joined us as the new manager today, he'd be be capable of making this United a serious contender on all fronts. Unfortunately for him, he's managed to build the squad only to end up losing the dressing room.
As such, it's not that he's done a bad job. It's just that he's exhausted all his goodwill in bringing us this far.
It's rare for a single manager to build an empire, then take it on to greatness. Fergie was a one off. Mourinho looks like he was only able to do the first bit, but will struggle to carry that momentum through to second.
Once he finally leaves Old Trafford, he'll have objectively had a decent stint as manager, all things considered.
By contrast, LvG took us backwards and was on the road to ruining the squad. The two managers aren't comparable at all.
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The "improvement" stopped in January/February, and we've been on a downward trajectory since then. Don't know how anyone can watch our games at the moment and claim that we've significantly improved. Fecking hilarious to witness how deluded some people are.
Knee jerk my arse. Its one of the reasons we are currently the most cagey side JM has ever managed and De Gea sat in the top 2 for saves in the top 10 last season
That's on Woodward
Just 12 goals conceded from open play. Almost twice as good as City and any of our title rivals
7th least shots conceded per game. It is a bit more than the other top sides but not a large amount.
Conceding shots isnt directly down to the defense as DM and midfield also plays a part in that.
Often long ranged shots are the responsibility of those players to close down. So its about team wide defending not just the defense. Our defense is rarely protected well by our anemic midfield who look far more interested when we have the ball than when we don't have it - other than Ander who is kinda the opposite and looks happier when we dont have the ball and he can run around trying to win it.
Saying jose is lucky because de gea made a great saves is like saying saf is just lucky because cantona or cole or yorke or rvn was just good at scoring
More like 20-30% with 400mil invested. Also how can u Mourinho lovers still have him in such high regards? Everybody forgetting about his last season at Chelsea?
He's done as a top level manager. Been here for 2 years now and there's no identity on the pitch, attacking movements are non-existent - is he perhaps relying on indivudal player brilliance?
Most of the time the players look like they're playing together for the first time - what are they doing during training? Can't string together more than 4 passes in midfield, what is counter-attacking ?
Oh and it's all Woodwards fault. /s
He always did bud - that's the reason players like ibrahimpvic & et'00 absolutely love the guy whilst hating managers like Pep.More like 20-30% with 400mil invested. Also how can u Mourinho lovers still have him in such high regards? Everybody forgetting about his last season at Chelsea?
He's done as a top level manager. Been here for 2 years now and there's no identity on the pitch, attacking movements are non-existent - is he perhaps relying on indivudal player brilliance?
Most of the time the players look like they're playing together for the first time - what are they doing during training? Can't string together more than 4 passes in midfield, what is counter-attacking ?
Oh and it's all Woodwards fault. /s
All because Jose relies on individual player brilliance & manages to feed those player ego's daily. Players he doesn't find useful are deemed to have mental problems & put out to the media especially if it's a player that people would question the sale over - utilising the media to amplify their distance away from the rest of the squad - whilst the 'cool' squad continue to act like the everyone vs us team mentality that Jose implements.
Matic, Willian & Lukaku he would have had here if Woodward gave him the money - shows how repetitive, how lost the manager is in trying to find a new way of playing that he has to utilise his older players.
We have won cups and reached 2nd place purely by Jose's short-term quick fixes. Zlatan and Mkhi helped us win LC and EL, but they are not there now. The second place was mainly due to Liverpool throwing away the competition for 2nd-4th and focusing on CL. Our true level might become more apparent this season.
Whatever we achieved under Jose is a house built on sand. The rotten foundation remains intact. Note that so far Bailly, Lindelof and Fred do not look the real deal -- there is no guarantee that the next manager rates them. Matic is getting on and would soon need replacing. Sanchez is filling the void left by Rooney, and we are talking post-2013 Rooney here. Lukaku and Pogba are the only signings who start regularly and contribute, but Pogba wants out. Dalot is yet to feature and be judged.
So basically, I am not sure we have even improved the squad. The style of play is as bad as under LvG, which is a better indicator. Results gained from short term thinking over the past 2 seasons won't be sustainable.
Whatever we achieved under Jose is a house built on sand. The rotten foundation remains intact. Note that so far Bailly, Lindelof and Fred do not look the real deal -- there is no guarantee that the next manager rates them. Matic is getting on and would soon need replacing. Sanchez is filling the void left by Rooney, and we are talking post-2013 Rooney here. Lukaku and Pogba are the only signings who start regularly and contribute, but Pogba wants out. Dalot is yet to feature and be judged.
So basically, I am not sure we have even improved the squad. The style of play is as bad as under LvG, which is a better indicator. Results gained from short term thinking over the past 2 seasons won't be sustainable.
I definitely think the squad is better and we are a team that's on paper capable of getting in top 4. Unfortunately Mourinho is underachieving with this team. My feeling is a lot of it is down to his mismanagement and putting down of the squad in preseason. Despite him having no discernible way of playing he has been so much better than LVG and if course there is no comparison to Moyes.
First half of last year is the best we have been since SAF.
The answer to the question even now is yes imo.
Now it's a matter of time before Jose is done and the next manager comes in. Which is why I'd write this season off, it is a write off anyway with Jose. So let's move on now and get a manager to bed in this season.
First half of last year is the best we have been since SAF.
The answer to the question even now is yes imo.
Now it's a matter of time before Jose is done and the next manager comes in. Which is why I'd write this season off, it is a write off anyway with Jose. So let's move on now and get a manager to bed in this season.
Or defence is constantly excused that 'its anemic' when protecting our defence. Yet our main defence shield, Matic, sat second in the top 6 with interceptions being Kante, 3rd in the top 6 in tackles, whilst of our midfielders only Matic and Mata made errors that directly lead to goals. People need to disabuse the notion people have that JM and his staff are stupid when they target upgrades at center back. Or defence causes us major problems and till its sorted we will remain a cagey team under Mourinho. For me they should have been allowed to recruit at least on top tier talent experienced center half to replace our experienced center halves. Plus Woodward should have upgraded a Jones with Maguire before the world cup
Just 12 goals conceded from open play. Almost twice as good as City and any of our title rivals
7th least shots conceded per game. It is a bit more than the other top sides but not a large amount.
Conceding shots isnt directly down to the defense as DM and midfield also plays a part in that.
Often long ranged shots are the responsibility of those players to close down. So its about team wide defending not just the defense. Our defense is rarely protected well by our anemic midfield who look far more interested when we have the ball than when we don't have it - other than Ander who is kinda the opposite and looks happier when we dont have the ball and he can run around trying to win it.
I dont know where you get your numbers from, but if we look at CMs and DMs alone then Matic didnt make a lot compared to the others in the league. He wasnt even in the top 10 average interceptions in CM/DMs playing over 10 games last season . Ander was ahead of him when it comes to our own midfielders. With tackles his average was 36th.
Besides the fact that those numbers alone dont tell you everything about a player playing in the position between midfield and defense. I called Matic out plenty of times last season when teams had chances and goals against us and he was nowhere to be found in that position. He's one of the best in the world in terms of being physical in that position but his positioning and ability to sense danger isnt even the best at the club let alone one of the best in the league.
It's probably similar to the Liverpool DNA really. Both United and Liverpool share a lot of values when it comes to football. Liverpool haven't been successful for a long time but we know what values the club and supporters have... Attacking football, good work ethic, young players being given a chance to shine, local lads (Ireland and Britain), compete for all trophies, etc.
Also, we may have only had 1 "successful" manager in the last 50 years in your opinion (2 really since Busby is included in that time period), but that one manager was here for 26 years! Mourinho will be looked at as having been successful, he won the Europa League afterall. Atkinson won an FA cup, LvG won an FA cup... its all about what you deem as "successful"?
Fair points. I don't really subscribe to the DNA talk in general, or really think such a thing exists. Football has evolved and will continue to; the same principles which were successful years ago aren't really applicable today.
LVG's side was horrendous to watch..... the most boring United side I remember watching - this was a side that didn't take risks, was rigid and inflexible but we were defensively sound I felt
we made undeniable progress under Jose, particularly in the first 10 months. A first season where we played pretty good football against most teams, won 2 trophies and the main issue was our finishing in games which resulted in lots of draws and a lack of ambition in the big games.
we started the next season well, not creating just as many chances but scoring lots of goals in the first 6 weeks.
Since that October Liverpool game though where we lacked any ambition our play has been spotty at best and since February the quality of our play has gone back to Van Gaal levels.
so in sum, we made progress though it looks now like it may have deserted us - it feels like Martial, Rashford and Sanchez have gone so badly backwards in our 'system' and can't believe how fragile our defence is. The irony is we signed all these 6 foot plus players but as someone stated earlier we conceded 10 goals last year from set pieces - 3 times more than City
we made undeniable progress under Jose, particularly in the first 10 months. A first season where we played pretty good football against most teams, won 2 trophies and the main issue was our finishing in games which resulted in lots of draws and a lack of ambition in the big games.
we started the next season well, not creating just as many chances but scoring lots of goals in the first 6 weeks.
Since that October Liverpool game though where we lacked any ambition our play has been spotty at best and since February the quality of our play has gone back to Van Gaal levels.
so in sum, we made progress though it looks now like it may have deserted us - it feels like Martial, Rashford and Sanchez have gone so badly backwards in our 'system' and can't believe how fragile our defence is. The irony is we signed all these 6 foot plus players but as someone stated earlier we conceded 10 goals last year from set pieces - 3 times more than City
United DNA isn't that of a loser like Poch.
I think people forget how bad it was under LVG.