How can £250m of players be so bad!

[RedTillI'mDead]

My worry is less about LVG and more about the players. I think it's not worked out, but the same could have happened to anyone. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and let his history stand for him today. However, I can't say the same for the players.

When I think about the squad I'm struggling to name many players worthy of staying. There is far more I would happily see rid of and some that just need to go.

Worthy of staying:
De Gea, Martial, Herrera, Shaw, Smalling (maybe but only with a solid cb purchase like Hummels to pair with him). Valencia (squad player to support RB or RW)

The generous maybes:
Schneiderlin and Depay maybe deserve a fresh start next year! Lingard is maybe squad worthy. Pereira (too soon to tell)

Mata I like a lot, but too slow and doesn't do any favours for our style. I think he is worth a decent amount and the money could be better spent. He also probably has a huge salary.

Rooney I still think can offer something from the bench, but huge salary so probably time to move on.

The problem with this category is there are too many in here, many on high salaries.

That leaves a lot of excess ranging from junk to just a bit average.

Junk: Fellaini, Young (on balance and lack of consistency), Jones (just a bit of a joke), Carrick (past it), Powell (young but seems useless)

Average: Rojo (bit of a liability), Matteo (same), Schweinsteiger (has done a lot for our solidity, but seems past it)

Overall we are left with a vastly expensive squad that isn't easily fixed. I do think part of the problem is the reality of modern day football which is that there are limited world class players, but they are many classes apart from the rest. If you have these then all the averageness has the chance to shine. If you don't everyone can look just a bit shite. We lack world class players in a major way. De Gea and Shaw are probably the only world class players we have.

EDIT: £250m is both the cost of players brought in, but also the value of the team starting against Stoke. As the net spend is lower I'm more considering the work still to be done on an overly costly team in general but this also includes signings from SAF and Moyes who are lucky to still be here.

 

[jem]

My worry is less about LVG and more about the players. I think it's not worked out, but the same could have happened to anyone. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and let his history stand for him today. However, I can't say the same for the players.

When I think about the squad I'm struggling to name many players worthy of staying. There is far more I would happily see rid of and some that just need to go.

Worthy of staying:
De Gea, Martial, Herrera, Shaw, Smalling (maybe but only with a solid cb purchase like Hummels to pair with him). Valencia (squad player to support RB or RW)

The generous maybes:
Schneiderlin and Depay maybe deserve a fresh start next year! Lingard is maybe squad worthy. Pereira (too soon to tell)

Mata I like a lot, but too slow and doesn't do any favours for our style. I think he is worth a decent amount and the money could be better spent. He also probably has a huge salary.

Rooney I still think can offer something from the bench, but huge salary so probably time to move on.

The problem with this category is there are too many in here, many on high salaries.

That leaves a lot of excess ranging from junk to just a bit average.

Junk: Fellaini, Young (on balance and lack of consistency), Jones (just a bit of a joke), Carrick (past it), Powell (young but seems useless)

Average: Rojo (bit of a liability), Matteo (same), Schweinsteiger (has done a lot for our solidity, but seems past it)

Overall we are left with a vastly expensive squad that isn't easily fixed. I do think part of the problem is the reality of modern day football which is that there are limited world class players, but they are many classes apart from the rest. If you have these then all the averageness has the chance to shine. If you don't everyone can look just a bit shite. We lack world class players in a major way. De Gea and Shaw are probably the only world class players we have.

Good post, but 'maybe' for Smalling is too harsh.

 

[Bojan11]

I said this last week that we needed a mini clear out.

Some of the players are not good enough.

 

[thejtrain]

Harsh on Schweini. But yeah, to avoid going off topic, it's a bad baffling and could have happened to many managers, even good ones. It's for the same reason I fear a change of manager won't instantly make us a much better side.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Good post, but 'maybe' for Smalling is too harsh.

Smalling is probably our most overrated player. Expose him and he looks poor. A world apart from the reliability of Vidic, Stam, Ferdinand, Bruce, Pallister. I didn't put him in maybe just said he needs a solid pairing.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Smalling maybe?!

WTF.

edit: ok read your other post but it's still harsh. In the game today ANY defender looks suspect without a good partnership. Look at our own Rio and Vidic, who had to carry whoever they were with at the time.

 

[ADJUDICATOR]

Shaw, Schneiderlin, Darmian, Rojo and Schweinsteiger weren't playing. Memphis and Martial are young players coming from foreign leagues. We're all feeling the glum but calm down a bit.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

How about playing to your teams strengths? And not forcing them to play in a style that obviously, after 18 months, isn't suited to them? That's how £250 million worth of players look like trash.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Schneiderlin as a "generous maybe" is harsh too. Has barely put a foot wrong, and was a huge factor in our defensive solidity. We've fallen apart since his absence. And even though he's fit again, he's still not getting on the pitch, and we keep on conceding stupid goals.

 

[NinjaFletch]

The over-reactions about our squad are ridiculous.

Besides, even if it is that bad. There's no way ripping the entire squad up and starting again is anything but counter-productive. Add some quality, address some issues, and see how we go. We've had enough instability in our playing staff and they're already playing like they're shit scared, the sword of Damocles hanging over the head of all of them can not help that.

 

[Dr Fink]

It's the way they are told to apply themselves, the talent is there.

 

[Donut]

Maybe for Smalling He's the best CB in the league, 2 average games don't change that.


--------------De Gea
Darmian--Smalling--??--Shaw
---Schneiderlin--Schweinsteiger
???-----------???----------???
-------------Martial

Keep some of Valencia, Lingard, Young, Januzaj, Herrera, Pereira, Carrick, Blind. The rest should all be under threat. Basically we need a new attack.

 

[starman]

Doesn't that £250m figure include Di Maria?

 

[Revan]

Keep: De Gea, Romero/Valdez, Darmian, Smalling, Shaw, Blind, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Mata, Herrera, Martial, Memphis*
Maybe: Rojo, Lingard
Back from loan: Januzaj
Loan: Wilson, Pereira
Get rid: Young, Valencia, Jones, Carrick, Rooney, Fellaini

That would leave just 15 players (including players in maybe category). Which means that we would need to sign at least two defenders, a midfielder, two wingers and two strikers. 7 new players which means an another year in transition.

* Only because it is his first year. He has been our worst winger since Bebe/Obertan.

 

[Sylar]

Could be worse, this could all be happening with Romero in goal right now...

 

[NinjaFletch]

Could be worse, this could all be happening with Romero in goal right now...

No it literally couldn't.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Schneiderlin as a "generous maybe" is harsh too. Has barely put a foot wrong, and was a huge factor in our defensive solidity. We've fallen apart since his absence. And even though he's fit again, he's still not getting on the pitch, and we keep on conceding stupid goals.

He has also not lived up to his Southampton levels and has been a big part of the lack of creativity. Not all his fault with the way we play, but we aren't getting the best of him or he isn't getting the best of himself, but either way he is hardly part of the solution!

 

[gooDevil]

Tactics.

 

[Leftback99]

Because they replaced players that were worth more than £250m. (Kind of, i.e. Depay isn't better than Nani, Darmian not better than Rafael, Blind not better than Rio/Vidic, etc)

 

[KingMinger22]

Doesn't that £250m figure include Di Maria?

Yes. We have spent £150m net since LVG too over. Not much to replenish an old squad.

The talent is NOT there.

Look at our attack. We have a 19 year old youngster in his first season in England as the focal point. Inconsistency is a guarantee.

Rooney is awful. Truly.

That's our entire strike force.

To support we have Depay. He has to be having one of the worst debut seasons I have seen for a United player. Bebe like.

Young, Mata, Fellaini.

Doesn't even need an explanation.

Squad is dire.

 

[Speak]

A bunch of players who lack the ability to turn, dribble, control the ball in tight spaces.
Thus they hide, or constantly drop into acres of space where no damage can be done with the ball, or they spend ages on the ball, getting it under control - when better players need half the time.

It's like England national side: they never pass to anyone who isn't unmarked. Because nobody trusts the passer or themselves.
So yes, aside from the manager, the squad is not up to standard at all.

Martial, Shaw, Herrera (to a lesser extent), de Gea, Smalling. Maybe Perreira:
That's where the build-able foundations begin and end.

van Gaal should have just gone for a more counter-attacking approach. It requires less technique on the ball. But I'm sure he (like Martial) is shocked at how limited the footballers at the club are/were.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Tactics. That is all.

 

[Moonred]

If it's only tactics, I guess we will be good soon.

 

[Vidicious]

You can spend all the money you want but if they don't buy into the manager or his tactics you're going nowhere.

Di Maria accounts for 1/5 of that money & you won't see a better example.

 

[gooDevil]

I was worried when LVG got here that we have hardly a single player who is the kind of quick passer and dribbler that characterizes his Ajax/Barca sides. Wayne Rooney play like Barca? You're having a laugh. Carrick can't do it and he's our best passer.

Jones and Smalling weren't passing CBs, Valencia isnt suited, nor Mata or Fellaini.

We've already shipped out 4/5ths of the squad he inherited, but the players he kept still arent suited to his style.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

The over-reactions about our squad are ridiculous.

Besides, even if it is that bad. There's no way ripping the entire squad up and starting again is anything but counter-productive. Add some quality, address some issues, and see how we go. We've had enough instability in our playing staff and they're already playing like they're shit scared, the sword of Damocles hanging over the head of all of them can not help that.

I don't disagree, but that is the whole point of this thread. It's an incredibly worrying position as a club, as there are simply too few players showing they have the cutting edge.

That being said you are right to an extent. A Hummels type player would make massive differences to our defence and taking the ball out of defence.

A Bale/ Ronaldo/ Neymar as unlikely as they may seem would completely transform our creativity and attacking impetus. Or even Mahrez or Payet.

A Kane/ Vardy/ Muller would add that strength and finishing that might just provide more break throughs.

So yes three players would transform our chances, but those are three seriously top players at massive cost (even if relatively speaking for the older guys). One or two of these would probably not make enough difference and could go missing the same way as Martial has in some games.

 

[mu77]

net spend means feck all. he's spent 250m. he got rid of good talent and didn't replace them. net spend FFS that's arsenal's line.

 

[Successful]

Because they replaced players that were worth more than £250m. (Kind of, i.e. Depay isn't better than Nani, Darmian not better than Rafael, Blind not better than Rio/Vidic, etc)

Very good post. Some were even irreplaceable. If you would like to buy a player like Scholes you would probably have to fork out 100m the day he becomes available. So those 250m are penuts!!

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

He has also not lived up to his Southampton levels and has been a big part of the lack of creativity. Not all his fault with the way we play, but we aren't getting the best of him or he isn't getting the best of himself, but either way he is hardly part of the solution!

He's a defensive midfielder. Judging a defensive midfielder on creativity is like judging Martial on how many tackles he makes.

Schneiderlin is a great ball winner. He tackles, he makes interceptions, he breaks up play when needed, then he gives the ball to the creative players. That's what he was good at at Southampton. It's why they had the 2nd best defensive record in the league last season, and why they are now leaking goals all over the place. He wasn't known for creativity at Southampton. He only got one assist last season.

I certainly disagree that he isn't part of the solution. He was one of, if not the best DM in the league last season. When he has played for us, we barely concede or lose. When he hasn't played, we have lost and shipped loads of goals.

 

[Irrational.]

They've had the goodness coached out of them.

In another parallel universe we'd have Smalling and Blind solid at the back, Mata and Herrera pulling the strings with Schneiderlin screening the midfield, Memphis destroying fullbacks out wide and Martial finishing for fun.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

We need to just play simple football get another striker and winger in and just move the ball quickly up to the forwards and wingers let them move about with some freedom and make everyone work hard off the ball and we will see a change.

 

[starman]

Yes. We have spent £150m net since LVG too over. Not much to replenish an old squad.

The talent is NOT there.

Look at our attack. We have a 19 year old youngster in his first season in England as the focal point. Inconsistency is a guarantee.

Rooney is awful. Truly.

That's our entire strike force.

To support we have Depay. He has to be having one of the worst debut seasons I have seen for a United player. Bebe like.

Young, Mata, Fellaini.

Doesn't even need an explanation.

Squad is dire.

Selling Hernandez was incredibly stupid. Shame he is not on a loan, allowing any manager coming in to bring him back. That said, Arsenal seem to be linked with him for 13m, at that price would welcome him back.

 

[steffyr2]

It's the way they are told to apply themselves, the talent is there.

Where? Was it left in a bag on the side of the pitch today? Because i didn't see a single bit of talent on display. Can't pass. Can't move. Can't shoot. Can't run. Can't defend. They're all short, weak, slow, lame, ineffective and whiny.

What game was it that the defender (for the other team obviously, our side is too weak to do this) dribbled thru our entire team and took a shot on goal? Why don't we have anyone like this?

I'm sick of them all.

 

[lysglimt]

You can excuse the poor players all you want - but look where Watford and Leicester are with several players which in all fairness are mediocre.

It has a lot to do with how you use the players.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

He's a defensive midfielder. Judging a defensive midfielder on creativity is like judging Martial on how many tackles he makes.

Schneiderlin is a great ball winner. He tackles, he makes interceptions, he breaks up play when needed, then he gives the ball to the creative players. That's what he was good at at Southampton. It's why they had the 2nd best defensive record in the league last season, and why they are now leaking goals all over the place. He wasn't known for creativity at Southampton. He only got one assist last season.

I certainly disagree that he isn't part of the solution. He was one of, if not the best DM in the league last season. When he has played for us, we barely concede or lose. When he hasn't played, we have lost and shipped loads of goals.

Which is why we needed him today. What was LvG thinking?

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

I like and agree with the sentament of your post, but what you say about smalling is baffling as well as rating hererra but not schneiderlin.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

A bunch of players who lack the ability to turn, dribble, control the ball in tight spaces.
Thus they hide, or constantly drop into acres of space where no damage can be done with the ball, or they spend ages on the ball, getting it under control - when better players need half the time.

It's like England national side: they never pass to anyone who isn't unmarked. Because nobody trusts the passer or themselves.
So yes, aside from the manager, the squad is not up to standard at all.

Martial, Shaw, Herrera (to a lesser extent), de Gea, Smalling. Maybe Perreira:
That's where the build-able foundations begin and end.

van Gaal should have just gone for a more counter-attacking approach. It requires less technique on the ball. But I'm sure he (like Martial) is shocked at how limited the footballers at the club are/were.

I would add Schneiderlin to that list:

----------DDG--------
Darmian-CB-Smalling-Shaw
-------Schmidfield----
Winger--No10--Martial
--------Striker------

So we need at least 4 new players asap and then a replacement for Schweini. Easy peasy. And DDG is most likely off to Real in the summer.

 

[wiz4231]

Looking at the players we bought since Fergie left we have made some stupid decisions.

Fellaini - why? No
Mata - Had Kagawa and Rooney who could play in his position. No

Valdes - experienced player. Yes

Rojo - Good signing and needed. Yes
Blind - Another jack of all trades. No
Shaw - for the future. Yes
Herrera - much needed. Yes
Di Maria - WC player, should still be here. Yes
Falcao - didn't need, had RVP and Chicha. No

Romero - why? We have Valdes on our books. No
Darmian - a solid RB, Yes please. Yes
Schneiderlin - Yes
Schwienstiger - didn't need, sorry. No
Memphis - one of the best youngsters. Yes
Martial - potentially a top player. Yes

Promoted
Januzaj - Yes
Wilson - Yes
Pereira - Yes
Goss - Yes

Out of 15 players we've signed over the last 3 seasons 6 of those we didn't need. If we had kept some of the players we let go (RVP, Kagawa, Nani, Chicha) and we smarter in market we'd be in a better position.

GK - Valdes, De Gea, Johnstone
CB - Vidic, Smalling, Rojo, Jones
FB - Evra, Darmian, Rafael, Shaw
CM - Carrick, Morgan, Herrera, Pereira, Goss
#10 - Rooney, Kagawa
FW - Di Maria, Nani, Januzaj, Martial, Wilson
ST - RVP, Chicha, Depay

 

[Livewire1974]

They look poor because of a poor system (philosophy) and are clearly not motivated. All we can hope for is that some of the players flourish under a new manager.

 

[Leftback99]

Rojo - Good signing and needed. Yes

Rojo good signing? One of the worst of the lot. Bought solely because of LVG's obsession with left footed centre backs and the 3-5-2.