How Man Utd fail at the basics

andersj

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First, football is a passing game, and probably more than ever when attacking a low block. And to pass well you need a good structure. Both to have passing options/alternatives and to create space.

The structure helps the team «recycle the ball» high up the pitch until you get/create an opening/opportunity to break through the block. To create that opening you either need players of high quality with flair or be able to outnumber the other team in a critical space on the last third of the pitch. The best teams can create both through individual quality and the ability to outnumber by moving the ball quickly into a space where they identify an opportunity.

In my opinion, part of the problem at Man Utd is usually structural. (Usually, because against Watford we commited so many silly mistakes that it was really difficult to tell what we were trying to do.)

Because we lack structure we are not good at passing and containing the ball high up the pitch. Consequently our players rarely get the chance to «search» for an opportunity to create. Neither through individual quality or outnumbering. The lack of structure mean that we dont use the pitch well enough.

When you watch a heat map of Liverpool and Man City compared to Man Utd you notice that there is a significant difference in terms of how the teams make use of the entire pitch. I think Leicester is similar and the same was the case with Chelsea when they won under Conte.

At Liverpool their attacking trio attack through the middle while Robertson and TAA keeps the width. On the ball their central midfield mainly contribute to «rescyling» the ball and providing it to attacking players (fullbacks and attackers). (Their most important job is probably protecting the central defenders.)

If their midfielder have space to attack and can carry the ball into the last third, fine!
If they can find a more creative fullback with even more space, great!
If they can give the ball to one of their attackers, perfect!

A midfielder at Liverpool usually have five attacking passing options, in addition to his midfield partners. The options are spread out meaning there is more space through the middle. Henderson, Milner and Winjaldum are not world class players, but it is easier for them to pass the ball as they have a solid structure offering several passing options and more space.

The same is the case at Man City. While their fullbacks is not creative attackers in the same manner as at Liverpool they provide them with passing options. They are tools in that regard, just like the midfielders at Liverpool. In fact, Pep often tucks his fullbacks inside. He then plays Walker almost as a wide central defender while the left full back is a bit higher up the pitch playing as a defensive midfielder. But he never sacrifice the width, meaning their wingers are «reduced» to wide wingers who have to hug the chalk. (Fantasy managers will have noticed that owning Sane could be really frustrating at times due to him being very wide. Sterling has suffered the same faith at times this year.)

Consequently, Man City play with three central defenders and two protecting midfielders. Their system give KdB and the Silvas licence to attack freely. In other words, Man City, like Liverpool, cover/protect the most crucial area of the pitch (when defending) with five players and attack with five players, two out wide, three through the middle. Balance and structure.

It sounds rather basic. Actually, it is rather basic. So why do Man Utd fail?

Because you need the right type of qualities in your players to pull it off. And our fullbacks is not suited for dominating through possession, in my opinion. Running up and down is extremely demanding physically. Physically it is probably the most demanding of any position on the pitch. Young is too old, and Shaw is not built for it. Whether or not he is, he dont do it. AWB, on the other hand, looks perfect physically. But he appears raw on the ball. He is not good at attacking space and he is not a good passer. He lack the ability to pass well, and he dont pass with intent or purpose. A bit like Smalling. While not all the players at Liverpool are world class, every single one are at least decent passers (in terms of technique and understanding the game). Man Utd under Ferguson was similar. Players like Neville, O’Shea and Butt were never world class, but they were decent and knew how to play. They were useful tools with the basics in their tool kit.

The lack of attacking play from our fullbacks today ensure that the opposition can «call our bluff» and tuck more players inside to protect the most important area of the pitch. Not only do we lose numbers higher up the pitch; they can defend more narrow, with more people in central areas where we try to attack, allowing our attackers less space, making it a lot more difficult for our central defenders and midfielders to pass! So when some of our players are hogging the ball, I think there is a good reason for it.

Can we solve it with this squad?
I do think we could pick a page from Antonio Contes play book. Meaning we playing with three at the back, Maguire, Lindelof and Tuanzebe (or Rojo/Bailly). James at left wingback (similar to Moses) and Dalot/Laird/Williams or Lingard at right wingback. Fred/McTominay as Matic/Kante. Pogba through the middle infront of them. Rashford and Martial upfront. Our attack would be a bit different from Chelsea obviously (probably more similar to todays Inter), but we would still have a good structure with more passing options in the final third of the pitch.

Lack of quality players would obviously be an issue regardless of structure and system. But we need to make the most of our squad. Right now, we dont.
Thanks for taking time!
 

JPRouve

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It sounds rather basic. Actually, it is rather basic. So why do Man Utd fail?
Objectively I can't answer with certainty but these basic things rely on repetition, repetition on the training pitch that become habits on game day. So my guess is that we don't do it on the training pitch or don't do it properly. If you remember under LVG we had a structure and the team was clearly drilled, it lacked flair and most of us, myself included, childishly got frustrated and blamed LVG when the main issue was simply one of player quality and profile.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Nice, but I don't completely agree with OP's reasoning.

So we fail at basics because we have no structure?
No structure because no good at passing and contain?
No good at that because no right type of players?
No right players because of our "wrong" fullbacks?

Seem to be ignoring a lot of other things there.

1) Absence of good effective system/style/way of play (when breaking park the bus, not a problem when there are big spaces eg. vs top teams usually).

2) Lack of good team cooperation. Important things like movements and positioning are clearly not effective. As a team, our players just seem to not know or understand what team mates are doing or going to do. Many players are just not on thr same wavelength.

3) Clearly a lack of Good coaching to implement that and repetitions in training drills and live games. No idea what we're doing in trainings.

4) Over reliance on individuals to win games. Ole only decided with the formation and insistence on passing-keeping the ball, and the high press but even the team pressing have poor team coordination. Again this is a huge problem vs well trained park the bus teams.

So fail at basics due to poor structure build by poor coaching, as we can see clearly in games - rubbish vs good structure low block/park the bus teams.

I think we have qualities and right types of players, but just that they're poorly managed in a not effective system. And yes this include AWB, Shaw, Maguire etc who have been criticised a lot. (I do question players mentality/attitude at times but that is inconsistent i.e. not all the time. The poor structure is more apparent and consistent)

Difficult to play, pass and attack together when there are poor structure i.e. poor movements and poor positioning by team mates.

That said, because of how things are, which is how the current style of manager and coaching team, formation change may be the only solution. Oh well. Tbf, Ole and co did tried that 352/343 formation.
 

Sky1981

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We have No Coaches that's up to standard.

Moyes - 0 coaches, all sacked in favor of Lumpdsen
LVG - 0 coaches, only brings GK coach and Video Guy
Jose - 0 coach, only brings Faria and 1 Fitness guy? We're doing ok when Faria's still around
Ole - Mckenna/Carrick unproven and probably quite bad

Like someone says, the devils' in the details, our ex players goes to Serie A and suddenly they're alright.
 

ayushreddevil9

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When you play a coward in the #10 role who prefers the glamour rather than doing the basics right, you are bound to fail. No coaching can solve that.
 

andersj

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Nice, but I don't completely agree with OP's reasoning.

So we fail at basics because we have no structure?
No structure because no good at passing and contain?
No good at that because no right type of players?
No right players because of our "wrong" fullbacks?

Seem to be ignoring a lot of other things there.

1) Absence of good effective system/style/way of play (when breaking park the bus, not a problem when there are big spaces eg. vs top teams usually).

2) Lack of good team cooperation. Important things like movements and positioning are clearly not effective. As a team, our players just seem to not know or understand what team mates are doing or going to do. Many players are just not on thr same wavelength.

3) Clearly a lack of Good coaching to implement that and repetitions in training drills and live games. No idea what we're doing in trainings.

4) Over reliance on individuals to win games. Ole only decided with the formation and insistence on passing-keeping the ball, and the high press but even the team pressing have poor team coordination. Again this is a huge problem vs well trained park the bus teams.

So fail at basics due to poor structure build by poor coaching, as we can see clearly in games - rubbish vs good structure low block/park the bus teams.

I think we have qualities and right types of players, but just that they're poorly managed in a not effective system. And yes this include AWB, Shaw, Maguire etc who have been criticised a lot. (I do question players mentality/attitude at times but that is inconsistent i.e. not all the time. The poor structure is more apparent and consistent)

Difficult to play, pass and attack together when there are poor structure i.e. poor movements and poor positioning by team mates.

That said, because of how things are, which is how the current style of manager and coaching team, formation change may be the only solution. Oh well. Tbf, Ole and co did tried that 352/343 formation.
I agree with 1) and 2), but I would argue that it, to a big degree, is down to our lack of structure. The same with the lack of coordinated press that you touch in 4).

And the problems in the team is definitley quite comphrensive. But in my opinion, we should start by creating a good structure to get a basis/foundation to build from.
 

Adisa

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When bottom table teams become better at the basics than we are, you have to look at what goes on during the week.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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We have No Coaches that's up to standard.

Moyes - 0 coaches, all sacked in favor of Lumpdsen
LVG - 0 coaches, only brings GK coach and Video Guy
Jose - 0 coach, only brings Faria and 1 Fitness guy? We're doing ok when Faria's still around
Ole - Mckenna/Carrick unproven and probably quite bad

Like someone says, the devils' in the details, our ex players goes to Serie A and suddenly they're alright.
This 100% this.
 

Lentwood

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I agree with the OP on the limitations of our full backs and our passing but I would put this down to lack of quality rather than structure right now

I suppose Pogba coming back will be a strong indicator of where we are as a team. Having to play a midfield of McTom, Fred and Mata/Lingard/Pereira really should be a mitigating circumstance for any manager.

We all know it’s far easier to play football on the counter, because the spaces are there to attack. The difficult part, the part that separates the good from the average, is the ability to break down the low block

To break down the low block, you have to move the ball quickly, forwards and backwards, side to side. We just can’t do this and haven’t been able to do it for years. I think this one solely comes down to the ability of the players. Let’s remember, Jose Mourinho said several times in interviews that he had spent hours in training coaches attacking patterns but our players couldn’t execute. At the time that was written off as self-defence by Jose, but LvG also really struggled to get us playing with any flair despite clearly spending huge amounts of time on attacking shape and patterns.

I also believe there is something else which is critical to breaking down a low block and that is having a proper CF. When I say “proper” CF I mean somebody who operates with his back to goal, between the posts and who’s only thought during a game is to score a goal. This kind of striker does three things, one occupies two CBs thereby creating space for others, two brings other players into the game by providing a focal point for attacks and three scores the scrappy tap-ins, close range headers and poachers goals we currently never score.

So, as I’ve said clearly elsewhere, I believe we are two players away from being a 20pt per season better side. We need a quality #10 to assist Paul Pogba in getting the ball moving faster and we need a proper #9

This is why I remain optimistic - because I firmly believe it’s just about the personnel and this can be relatively easily fixed in the transfer market. Sure, we’re a long way from Liverpool/City standard but we’re not actually that far at all from being best of the rest. Once we get there, then we consider our next moves and there will still be plenty of unanswered questions - but for me we’re at least moving in the right direction now
 

JohnnyLaw

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We have No Coaches that's up to standard.

Moyes - 0 coaches, all sacked in favor of Lumpdsen
LVG - 0 coaches, only brings GK coach and Video Guy
Jose - 0 coach, only brings Faria and 1 Fitness guy? We're doing ok when Faria's still around
Ole - Mckenna/Carrick unproven and probably quite bad

Like someone says, the devils' in the details, our ex players goes to Serie A and suddenly they're alright.
How are they suddenly alright?
Have you not seen the Inter fan-quotes on Lukaku from his thread, if anything they’re even more vicious than we were.
 

berbatrick

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Keeping incisive possession in the opposition half has been a problem since about 2012. After the 1-6 game, it seemed like the team stopped practising anything other than shooting and defending. Our build-up has really suffered since then. Moyes was never going to fix it, I hoped LvG would. His own style was so awful it didn't help. Jose doesn't care about this. And Ole can set up a good counter but not a front-foot team. Right now, Pogba is a one-man creative option through the middle, and he fills some of the gaps left by 2013 Carrick and can single-handedly make things work. But to get it consistently, as you said, there needs to be a coaching improvement.
 

Flexdegea

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When you play a coward in the #10 role who prefers the glamour rather than doing the basics right, you are bound to fail. No coaching can solve that.


This


We lack a player who can really get on the ball and link the play up, someone who not afraid of it, who can play simple 1/2 passes move into space. All the other top players have a player or a few like this for cover.
 

Sky1981

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How are they suddenly alright?
Have you not seen the Inter fan-quotes on Lukaku from his thread, if anything they’re even more vicious than we were.
They're improving after years of degrading at united.

Smailing looks the real deal, daley blind captaining ajax, lukaku banging goals and fitter.

Deny it all you want, but the number speaks for itself, the amount of player joining us and turns south is beggar beliefs
 

Red00012

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They're improving after years of degrading at united.

Smailing looks the real deal, daley blind captaining ajax, lukaku banging goals and fitter.

Deny it all you want, but the number speaks for itself, the amount of player joining us and turns south is beggar beliefs

Killing it in the Italian and Dutch League.
Ok.
 

Popcorn

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Agree that it would be a good idea to get some experienced coaches in. Carrick being an apprentice to Ole seems ridiculous at one of the biggest clubs in the world, he surely needs to learn from someone with some experience? We have some of the ahighest paid players in the league, one would assume that they can a least control the ball, pass and move.
 

Foxbatt

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I agree with the OP. The structure he meant was our set up and how we play and the shape. We may not have the qualityrs but the shape and structure had got nothing to do with it.
These players can still try it. Many teams with less quality players do it and then it's easier to get quality players to fit into the system.
But unfortunately our manager is not up to the task.
 

JohnnyLaw

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They're improving after years of degrading at united.

Smailing looks the real deal, daley blind captaining ajax, lukaku banging goals and fitter.

Deny it all you want, but the number speaks for itself, the amount of player joining us and turns south is beggar beliefs
You’re the one in denial mate, go check the Inter forums. He barely even gets the benefit of the doubt when compared to Icardi who’s universally hated on there.
Smalling and Blind were good here too so you don’t really have a point there.
Sanchez, Mkhi, Schneiderlin haven’t exactly exploded since departing have they?

Besides, have Rashford, McTominay, Fred and more not made strides under Solskjaer? I can’t deny results have been dreadful, but paradoxically enough player performances seem to be improving.
 

Josep Dowling

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A major part has to be the coaching.

When you have Martial constantly drifting offside.

Rashford shooting at any opportunity even when it’s not the most logical.

Can’t score from corners or even create a goal scoring chance from corners.

That tells me they aren’t doing the basics in training.

I also think if we don’t have attacking full backs you need a threat from midfield. Pogba got injured and the rest of the midfielder have no creativity. We are relying on the front 3 to score with absolutely no support from the players behind them. I’m hoping this changes now Pogba is back.
 

Sky1981

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You’re the one in denial mate, go check the Inter forums. He barely even gets the benefit of the doubt when compared to Icardi who’s universally hated on there.
Smalling and Blind were good here too so you don’t really have a point there.
Sanchez, Mkhi, Schneiderlin haven’t exactly exploded since departing have they?

Besides, have Rashford, McTominay, Fred and more not made strides under Solskjaer? I can’t deny results have been dreadful, but paradoxically enough player performances seem to be improving.
This thread is about how we fail at the basics, but somehow there's nothing wrong with our coaching, and everything is fine. If your definition of being coached is looking clueless for 90 minutes against watford then yes, we're well coached.
 

JohnnyLaw

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This thread is about how we fail at the basics, but somehow there's nothing wrong with our coaching, and everything is fine. If your definition of being coached is looking clueless for 90 minutes against watford then yes, we're well coached.
You were making a cheap point which deserved to be adressed, it really doesn’t need to be discussed any further.
 

Ronaldo's Love Child

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To break down the low block, you have to move the ball quickly, forwards and backwards, side to side. We just can’t do this and haven’t been able to do it for years. I think this one solely comes down to the ability of the players. Let’s remember, Jose Mourinho said several times in interviews that he had spent hours in training coaches attacking patterns but our players couldn’t execute. At the time that was written off as self-defence by Jose, but LvG also really struggled to get us playing with any flair despite clearly spending huge amounts of time on attacking shape and patterns.
I don't entirely buy into this argument as both LvG and Jose worked with entirely different players for the most part. A player's lack of ability isn't the player's fault.