In the Woodward era, are we doing enough to support our star players?

[Fortitude]

It's no coincidence at all that every single time Manchester United have won the European Cup, the team has been littered with star players performing with other star players to then be known as legendary as a grouping.

'68: Best, Law*, Charlton, Dunne, Foulkes, Stiles, Crerand supplemented by Stepney, Brennan, Kidd**, Sadler, Aston - re. the first 3 listed. all 3 of them won European Player of the Year (Ballon d'Or) during their careers at a time when the award was of the highest repute (they would all been WPOTY by today's metrics), such was their quality and Best & Charlton are not out of place in top 10 or 20's to have ever played the game, which, apart form Schmeichel (in his respective position) and C.Ronaldo, we can't say the same about for anyone else that has suited up for us.

Stiles and Crerand aren't mentioned much these days, but Stiles was world class at what he did and proved it at both the World Cup and in his job on Eusebio, the premier striker of the time. Tony Dunne was one of the best full-backs in the world then, too. In short, a very strong team that enabled its stars to shine.

*Law didn't play in the final, but like Keane in '99 he was instrumental in getting us there.
**Kidd scored in the final, thus justifying being the replacement.

'99: Schmeichel, Stam, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Yorke* supplemented by Irwin, Neville and Cole. The first grouping had players rated amongst the best in the world for their position throughout their careers, Yorke accepted, but in the '99 season, he was performing at a level the likes of Rivaldo would happily claim.

'08:Van der Sar, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Scholes, Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez supplemented by Brown*, Carrick & Park. From the second grouping, Wes Brown, like Yorke in '99, was playing at a level the likes of Thuram would be expected to. The first grouping were there or thereabouts the best in their positions in the world and the second grouping were perfectly capable at their own roles.

In all instances, the teams the stars played in enabled they themselves to play their game and shine. If you look at most winners of the CL, there will be a similar style of grouping you can make between stars and supplementals/enablers, and in most instances, it is a prerequisite to winning the trophy.

I was thinking about this topic in relation to DDG and Pogba, really... (probably more Pogba than Dave, beings as he's the outfielder) and the amount of investment it will take to get us up to 'that' level where we have Pogba-calibre players dotted around the team. It's going to take a mindboggling amount of money, isn't it? But if we want to get right to the top of the tree again and stand eye-to-eye with those already there, it's a necessary evil as the romantic narrative of plucky underdog-level players besting those they've no right to (on paper) rarely plays out anymore (Chelsea's run was the last time it happened, isn't it?)

In this day and age, do we actually have the funds at hand to make groupings that get anywhere near what is listed for any of the European Cup winning teams listed above? And would the club sanction that kind of investment?

 

[Mindhunter]

It takes a consistent vision and 2-3 years of planning to build a world-beater team. With us, there was no consistent vision for the team as we worked through three managers after SAF's retirement, each with their own vision and plan. Therefore, we have a motley crew of players who are unable to perform together with a consistent focus and gameplan.

Also, our side is heavily dependent on a few players (and players coming back out of the cold) due to the same inconsistency is playing style and recruitment. Hence, it is unfair to compare with City who remained true to their vision despite changing managers and had the money and the patience to see it through (i.e. provided they win the league this season).

Spending billions and bringing in marquee players in 6-7 positions is itself not a guarantee for success as they need to be bedded in and set-up with an effective game-plan. The only sure-shot way is consistent investment, and clear and consistent vision.

 

[roonster09]

In this day and age, do we actually have the funds at hand to make groupings that get anywhere near what is listed for any of the European Cup winning teams listed above? And would the club sanction that kind of investment?

You can do it without spending too much, but spend it wisely like Juventus and few other clubs did. You need sort of luck also but proper scouting and signing talents before they are signed by medium sized/big clubs is the way to go.

For example, there are rumours that big clubs are looking at Savic for big money, just 2 years ago he was signed for just 15 Million, Nainggolan was signed for around same price by Roma.

 

[GBBQ]

It takes a consistent vision and 2-3 years of planning to build a world-beater team. With us, there was no consistent vision for the team as we worked through three managers after SAF's retirement, each with their own vision and plan. Therefore, we have a motley crew of players who are unable to perform together with a consistent focus and gameplan.

This is key, most of the players mentioned achieved greatness whilst at United, they might have been good players or had high potential but SAF brought them on and he was able to do this by putting in the foundations over the years. Some was down to pure luck (Class of '92) and others were astute buys that added to the identity of the club (Cantona, Keane, Ronaldo etc.) but none was achievable in a 2-3 period from when he took over.

We add a couple of players in January and again in the summer then move on people who don't fit Mourinho's system and we're going to have a better chance at competing.

 

[devilish]

The best 2 team’s I’ve ever witnessed were AC Milan of the late 80s early 90s and Pep’s Barcelona. Then there were others teams whom, while not being at that level, were the best team Europe. That include our treble team, our 3rd CL team, Bayern’s treble winning team and Current Real’s team. All of which had 1 thing in common. They had a solid youth base which produced world class players.

That makes sense on a lot of levels. Buying an entire squad is financially difficult if not impossible. Even if a club had an unlimited amount of money there’s the human aspect of it ie people need time to settle down. Its almost impossible to buy an entire squad at one go and win at the end of the season. Not to forget that unlimited money attracts mercenaries whom, unless they earn their winning bonuses on a regular basis, they won’t stay there for long. You just have to a core of class players who sticks around and give their soul to the team when things are going wrong or the team is in a transitional period

Our youth academy hasn’t produced 1 world class player since the class of 92. Some might argue that such quote is unfair since both Pogba and Pique were our youth talent (both were our youth talent). However if we do accept that argument then we need to ask ourselves why these players had to leave United to get their career moving forward. In the past we used to say that once you leave United, the only way is down. It’s seriously not the case nowadays and that speaks volumes on what’s wrong at United.

 

[Bojan11]

The issue is we have not been ruthless enough in off loading players.

Pep signed a lot of players in the summer. But he also got rid of four fullbacks because that was one of their weakness.

Did we do enough in the summer to solve our weaknesses? Lindelof has looked decent but conceding goals wasn’t a issue. Lukaku hasn’t done better than Ibrahimovic last season. Matic was the only player we signed that improved our starting 11.

 

[el3mel]

Ed is doing fine at the moment, and since Mourinho arrived the quality of our signings improved massively. The only problem is we're doing the overhaul very very slow. We buy 3-4 players and chip out one player every summer. That will take a long time till the squad get sorted because we have many Deadwood here.

Starting from next summer Ed and Jose need to be more ruthless and start doing massive changes to the squad to accelerate the development of the team.

 

[Zlatattack]

The issue is we have not been ruthless enough in off loading players.

Pep signed a lot of players in the summer. But he also got rid of four fullbacks because that was one of their weakness.

Did we do enough in the summer to solve our weaknesses? Lindelof has looked decent but conceding goals wasn’t a issue. Lukaku hasn’t done better than Ibrahimovic last season. Matic was the only player we signed that improved our starting 11.

I agree with the off loading and the ruthlessness - but it's a bit harsh on Lukaku - he was firing on all cylinders until recently.

 

[Bestietom]

The club must invest more money to get up to the standard of the top European clubs, then they must keep investing to stay there. This is the way of football now. If there is a top player who you feel can make a difference to your team you must go after him. The manager also has a big part to play in the way he presents his team, and the way he wants them to play.

English Premiership teams have done very well in the Champions League so far this season, beating top teams along the way to top their groups, but a lot of these teams will be different when it comes to February after bringing in more top players. Barca, Real, Bayern, Juventus, and PSG, will add to their already strong squad and teams from the Premiership must follow suit if they really want to win this tournament and keep up with the top teams.

 

[Oldyella]

It takes a consistent vision and 2-3 years of planning to build a world-beater team. With us, there was no consistent vision for the team as we worked through three managers after SAF's retirement, each with their own vision and plan. Therefore, we have a motley crew of players who are unable to perform together with a consistent focus and gameplan.

Also, our side is heavily dependent on a few players (and players coming back out of the cold) due to the same inconsistency is playing style and recruitment. Hence, it is unfair to compare with City who remained true to their vision despite changing managers and had the money and the patience to see it through (i.e. provided they win the league this season).

Spending billions and bringing in marquee players in 6-7 positions is itself not a guarantee for success as they need to be bedded in and set-up with an effective game-plan. The only sure-shot way is consistent investment, and clear and consistent vision.

I think you are being very kind to Moyes in suggesting he had a vision or plan.

 

[Lentwood]

Ed is doing fine at the moment, and since Mourinho arrived the quality of our signings improved massively. The only problem is we're doing the overhaul very very slow. We buy 3-4 players and chip out one player every summer. That will take a long time till the squad get sorted because we have many Deadwood here.

Starting from next summer Ed and Jose need to be more ruthless and start doing massive changes to the squad to accelerate the development of the team.

This would be great but realistically will it happen?

I personally would be looking to go gung ho, sell Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Darmian, Fellaini and Mhiki. That should easily bring in £120m in today's market. Add to that the £150m'ish we seem to have budgeted every season and we could probably buy 3 world class players and supplement the squad with Youth

 

[Keeps It tidy]

You guys keep coming up with clever ways to do the "sell the deadwood" every few weeks.

 

[MUFC92]

I think you are being very kind to Moyes in suggesting he had a vision or plan.

I fully agree. With Moyes at the helm, we never had any plan and there was no sense of direction.

To be quite honest, our decline started in the summer of 2008. Ronaldo kicked up a fuss and wanted to leave, but was persuaded to stay. We only got Berbatov with just seconds to spare on deadline day, while we did not strengthen the team, which was a terrible mistake based on what occurred after 08-09, which in my view was our last great season!

Sir Alex should've known that Ronaldo would not be staying around forever, no matter what he said. Right from the moment Ronaldo said he would stay, Sir Alex should've instructed his scouts to be on the lookout for an elite forward and a world-class central midfielder. But no action was taken, which meant that summer 2009 was catastrophic from the word go. At the very same time, we did not even think about reviewing our sporting structure, which to this day has cost us!

We have absolutely no chance of competing with Manchester City short-term. They are a class above on and off the pitch. We need to have a major re-think in where we are heading as a club.

I think we need to start afresh, from top to bottom. We need to implement a long-term strategy, which would reap the rewards in the future. Continuously throwing money at the problem isn't the answer anymore.

Players like Fellaini, Rojo, Smalling, Valencia, Darmian, Blind, A.Young, Mata and Ibrahimovic ALL have to go. We need a long-term RB (Meunier?), CB (Laporte?), CM (Niguez/Goretzka) and a versatile attacker (Guedes/Richarlison?). Bring back Fosu-Mensah and Pereira, and make them cornerstones of our team, promote Tuanzebe and Mitchell, plus give game time to Gomes, Chong, Buffonge, Gribbin and Boonen, who are all tearing it up in the youth level! Hire a young manager (more on that down below) and give him time to put the building blocks in place. For e.g:

Season 1: A season of no expectations, where the players would be allowed to express themselves. There should still be some signs of progress across the season.
Season 2: Aim to finish in the top 4 and win a trophy
Season 3: Challenge for the League and consolidate ourselves in the Champions League.
Season 4: We should be top dogs in the League and Europe

Mourinho is not the right man to lead us forward. I feel that we had to hire him in response to Guardiola-to-Man City. What we should've done was groom Giggs for the job. Van Gaal was a dog of a manager, but what we failed to see was he was laying down the foundations for Giggs to take over, and history has shown that former assistants of Van Gaal have gone on to be successful managers! Giggs would've been given plenty of time and patience to construct a young team, playing proper football.

What angers me about Mourinho is he is on a mission to destroy our creative players, and it is not the first time he has done so. Look what he did to Joe Cole at Chelsea? He then sold De Bruyne and Salah, labelling them as 'not team orientated players'. I look at Mkhitaryan now, and he is crying out for some1 like Guardiola or Pochettino, that would allow him to play his football. I could even say the same for Rashford and Martial!

Mourinho is labelled a 'chequebook manager'. I can't disagree with that. He has not shown anything to suggest that he is interested in building a dynasty, while he is more interested in initiating ugly headlines, which puts our club's name in the gutter. With regards to #Milkgate, I suspect Mourinho may have had a bigger role in addition to his altercation with Ederson!

Going back to what I stated above, Mourinho has to go, full stop! Woodward should consider his position also. He must know that what he is doing is good for the club. He is a magician in bringing in sponsorships and selling our brand, but in terms of transfers, he still has no clue. We need to employ a Sporting Director, and that role could be given to this Ribalta guy. He was immense at Juventus, bringing in the likes of Morata and Dybala 3-4 years ago!

Finally, I want Leonardo Jardim as our next manager. He did a good job managing in Portugal and at Olympiakos, before he was inexplicably sacked. We all know what he has done at Monaco. His philosophy is sound and modern, and prefers his team to play on the front foot. Most important of all, he is a firm believer in youth and is not afraid to give untested youngsters their bow.

 

[ROFLUTION]

I think the most important is extending with Mou and keeping him happy.

Look at what he has accomplished defensively! all those "mediocre" / touted deadwood players are now doing overall great but had all odds against them.

Keep Mou and make him happy by bringing in some world-class players - basically just give him what he wants. Pay the damn price - we are a rich club after all.

 

[ash_86]

What angers me about Mourinho is he is on a mission to destroy our creative players, and it is not the first time he has done so. Look what he did to Joe Cole at Chelsea? He then sold De Bruyne and Salah, labelling them as 'not team orientated players'. I look at Mkhitaryan now, and he is crying out for some1 like Guardiola or Pochettino, that would allow him to play his football. I could even say the same for Rashford and Martial!

SAF sold Beckam, RVN, Ronaldo ect.. and still made us champions several times. Mourinho too won the league very recently with Chelsea after selling the players you had mentioned. Even after spending quite a lot, Pep won feck all last season, whereas we ended up with two trophies. Don't let your hate for Mourinho blind your eyes. I don't know about the future, but right here, right now Mou is the right manager to get us going. If you can't see how far we've come from last season, i recommend opening your eyes.

 

[Eire Red United]

I fully agree. With Moyes at the helm, we never had any plan and there was no sense of direction.

To be quite honest, our decline started in the summer of 2008. Ronaldo kicked up a fuss and wanted to leave, but was persuaded to stay. We only got Berbatov with just seconds to spare on deadline day, while we did not strengthen the team, which was a terrible mistake based on what occurred after 08-09, which in my view was our last great season!

Sir Alex should've known that Ronaldo would not be staying around forever, no matter what he said. Right from the moment Ronaldo said he would stay, Sir Alex should've instructed his scouts to be on the lookout for an elite forward and a world-class central midfielder. But no action was taken, which meant that summer 2009 was catastrophic from the word go. At the very same time, we did not even think about reviewing our sporting structure, which to this day has cost us!

We have absolutely no chance of competing with Manchester City short-term. They are a class above on and off the pitch. We need to have a major re-think in where we are heading as a club.

I think we need to start afresh, from top to bottom. We need to implement a long-term strategy, which would reap the rewards in the future. Continuously throwing money at the problem isn't the answer anymore.

Players like Fellaini, Rojo, Smalling, Valencia, Darmian, Blind, A.Young, Mata and Ibrahimovic ALL have to go. We need a long-term RB (Meunier?), CB (Laporte?), CM (Niguez/Goretzka) and a versatile attacker (Guedes/Richarlison?). Bring back Fosu-Mensah and Pereira, and make them cornerstones of our team, promote Tuanzebe and Mitchell, plus give game time to Gomes, Chong, Buffonge, Gribbin and Boonen, who are all tearing it up in the youth level! Hire a young manager (more on that down below) and give him time to put the building blocks in place. For e.g:

Season 1: A season of no expectations, where the players would be allowed to express themselves. There should still be some signs of progress across the season.
Season 2: Aim to finish in the top 4 and win a trophy
Season 3: Challenge for the League and consolidate ourselves in the Champions League.
Season 4: We should be top dogs in the League and Europe

Mourinho is not the right man to lead us forward. I feel that we had to hire him in response to Guardiola-to-Man City. What we should've done was groom Giggs for the job. Van Gaal was a dog of a manager, but what we failed to see was he was laying down the foundations for Giggs to take over, and history has shown that former assistants of Van Gaal have gone on to be successful managers! Giggs would've been given plenty of time and patience to construct a young team, playing proper football.

What angers me about Mourinho is he is on a mission to destroy our creative players, and it is not the first time he has done so. Look what he did to Joe Cole at Chelsea? He then sold De Bruyne and Salah, labelling them as 'not team orientated players'. I look at Mkhitaryan now, and he is crying out for some1 like Guardiola or Pochettino, that would allow him to play his football. I could even say the same for Rashford and Martial!

Mourinho is labelled a 'chequebook manager'. I can't disagree with that. He has not shown anything to suggest that he is interested in building a dynasty, while he is more interested in initiating ugly headlines, which puts our club's name in the gutter. With regards to #Milkgate, I suspect Mourinho may have had a bigger role in addition to his altercation with Ederson!

Going back to what I stated above, Mourinho has to go, full stop! Woodward should consider his position also. He must know that what he is doing is good for the club. He is a magician in bringing in sponsorships and selling our brand, but in terms of transfers, he still has no clue. We need to employ a Sporting Director, and that role could be given to this Ribalta guy. He was immense at Juventus, bringing in the likes of Morata and Dybala 3-4 years ago!

Finally, I want Leonardo Jardim as our next manager. He did a good job managing in Portugal and at Olympiakos, before he was inexplicably sacked. We all know what he has done at Monaco. His philosophy is sound and modern, and prefers his team to play on the front foot. Most important of all, he is a firm believer in youth and is not afraid to give untested youngsters their bow.

Unfair on Woodward there chap I think, all he does is go get the players Mou asks for and tbf he’s done that very well.

 

[IronCroos37]

The best 2 team’s I’ve ever witnessed were AC Milan of the late 80s early 90s and Pep’s Barcelona. Then there were others teams whom, while not being at that level, were the best team Europe. That include our treble team, our 3rd CL team, Bayern’s treble winning team and Current Real’s team. All of which had 1 thing in common. They had a solid youth base which produced world class players.

That makes sense on a lot of levels. Buying an entire squad is financially difficult if not impossible. Even if a club had an unlimited amount of money there’s the human aspect of it ie people need time to settle down. Its almost impossible to buy an entire squad at one go and win at the end of the season. Not to forget that unlimited money attracts mercenaries whom, unless they earn their winning bonuses on a regular basis, they won’t stay there for long. You just have to a core of class players who sticks around and give their soul to the team when things are going wrong or the team is in a transitional period

Our youth academy hasn’t produced 1 world class player since the class of 92. Some might argue that such quote is unfair since both Pogba and Pique were our youth talent (both were our youth talent). However if we do accept that argument then we need to ask ourselves why these players had to leave United to get their career moving forward. In the past we used to say that once you leave United, the only way is down. It’s seriously not the case nowadays and that speaks volumes on what’s wrong at United.

You forgot Galacticos Real (zidane, Raul, Ronaldo, etc) and late Milan( kaka, seedorf, Inzaghi, Nesta, Maldini,cafu, pirlo etc)

 

[bond19821982]

This would be great but realistically will it happen?

I personally would be looking to go gung ho, sell Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Darmian, Fellaini and Mhiki. That should easily bring in £120m in today's market. Add to that the £150m'ish we seem to have budgeted every season and we could probably buy 3 world class players and supplement the squad with Youth

Just being curious - how exactly would they bring 120m ?

 

[MUFC92]

SAF sold Beckam, RVN, Ronaldo ect.. and still made us champions several times. Mourinho too won the league very recently with Chelsea after selling the players you had mentioned. Even after spending quite a lot, Pep won feck all last season, whereas we ended up with two trophies. Don't let your hate for Mourinho blind your eyes. I don't know about the future, but right here, right now Mou is the right manager to get us going. If you can't see how far we've come from last season, i recommend opening your eyes.

Why did Sir Alex get rid of Beckham and Van Nistelrooy? a.) they were disruptive influences in the dressing room, and b.) in the case of Van Nistelrooy, it was clear that he was holding Ronaldo and Rooney back, and preventing them from developing as attackers. Sir Alex was a master of rebuilding teams and he had the ability to see when players needed moving on. Of all the players he sold, only Ronaldo has kept on growing.

Yes Chelsea won the League after the departures of De Bruyne and Salah, but just look at how they are performing right now? They are playing under managers who understand their creativity, and they have the tactical freedom to express themselves.

If you are of the opinion that Mourinho remains the right manager for us, then he has to change his ways. Unfortunately, I don't see him doing that.

 

[Lentwood]

Just being curious - how exactly would they bring 120m ?

I think the bulk of it would be Herrera and Shaw. In today’s market they have to be worth £50-£60m

I am also sure someone in the PL would pay £25m at least for Mata - never relied on pace so you would still get a good 5yrs out of him if you are Everton or West Ham etc....

The rest probably £10m-£20m each imo. For all they might be bang average we’ve seen very average players go for large amounts in the last two years

 

[pascell]

What do the 3 sets of players have in common? A spine.

Once you have a great GK, CB, CM and ST, you then start branching it off and fill in the rest, that's what made it easy to create a world class team for us with others performing past what they should.

We do have the makings of a world class team, we have de Gea, we're stacked with great CBs imo, we have Pogba and then Lukaku. Then the 'back ups' if that's the correct terminology, we have Matic, Martial and Rashford, two of them that will only get better as the seasons go on.

It's easy to spot our weaknesses and positions which need new players (LB, RB, RW and CM) so now Jose will start filling in the gaps. City did this is one fell swoop last summer but since Mendy got injured, they'll get another pricey LB in January. Jose has said he doesn't want to do this cause it'll disrupt the atmosphere he's building in the changing room. I'm a firm believer Jose will get it right between January and summer.

 

[devilish]

You forgot Galacticos Real (zidane, Raul, Ronaldo, etc) and late Milan( kaka, seedorf, Inzaghi, Nesta, Maldini,cafu, pirlo etc)

The Galacticos won little considering the outrageous sums of money Real paid in fees and salaries. I mean in 5 years there, Becks only won 1 Liga medal and 1 Spanish super cup to show for the effort. Which kind of shows that its often very difficult to rely solely on money to buy success.

AC Milan's team was quite impressive especially since it came at a time when Berlusconi's money well was already started to dry up. Some of the signings made during that time were pure mint. Gattuso from Rangers, Pirlo brought in from Inter for cheap and then converted from an average no 10 into one of the best deep lying playmakers in history, Kaka from Brazil (Juventus turned him down because no one whose called cack can ever do well in football) revatilised a side which could still rely on the old guard like Maldini.

 

[Marcky411]

This would be great but realistically will it happen?

I personally would be looking to go gung ho, sell Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Darmian, Fellaini and Mhiki. That should easily bring in £120m in today's market. Add to that the £150m'ish we seem to have budgeted every season and we could probably buy 3 world class players and supplement the squad with Youth

I like your idea but it won't happen, as soon as you sell off so many players and you are in the market for new players, everyone knows you desperate and the prices just sky rocket. Supplementing with youth sounds great but Mou only gives youth cameo's and most probably due to pressure from Utd to keep to some form of culture/tradition. Mou prefers proven players around the 28 or 29 years old and that costs big money, with no chance of getting some return on your investment. After laying out the big money also comes the big question, can they perform in the PL playing his system.

 

[JPRouve]

The Galacticos won little considering the outrageous sums of money Real paid in fees and salaries. I mean in 5 years there, Becks only won 1 Liga medal and 1 Spanish super cup to show for the effort. Which kind of shows that its often very difficult to rely solely on money to buy success.

AC Milan's team was quite impressive especially since it came at a time when Berlusconi's money well was already started to dry up. Some of the signings made during that time were pure mint. Gattuso from Rangers, Pirlo brought in from Inter for cheap and then converted from an average no 10 into one of the best deep lying playmakers in history, Kaka from Brazil (Juventus turned him down because no one whose called cack can ever do well in football) revatilised a side which could still rely on the old guard like Maldini.

That sentence is key, you don't buy success, you work for it. Money allows you to buy competence and talent, hard and efficient work allows you to turn it into success.

 

[Lentwood]

I like your idea but it won't happen, as soon as you sell off so many players and you are in the market for new players, everyone knows you desperate and the prices just sky rocket. Supplementing with youth sounds great but Mou only gives youth cameo's and most probably due to pressure from Utd to keep to some form of culture/tradition. Mou prefers proven players around the 28 or 29 years old and that costs big money, with no chance of getting some return on your investment. After laying out the big money also comes the big question, can they perform in the PL playing his system.

Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe look like able back-ups as do Scott McTominay and Andreas Pereira.

Some might argue we could be left short but I would rather use the younger players and make some money on the players who have proven they aren’t good enough.

We’ve got to do something to catch up with City quickly. Just spending another £150m won’t be enough when we need to address so many areas. £300m outlay should buy us two title winning standard full backs, a title winning standard CM and a title winning standard winger even in today’s market

 

[bond19821982]

I think the bulk of it would be Herrera and Shaw. In today’s market they have to be worth £50-£60m

I am also sure someone in the PL would pay £25m at least for Mata - never relied on pace so you would still get a good 5yrs out of him if you are Everton or West Ham etc....

The rest probably £10m-£20m each imo. For all they might be bang average we’ve seen very average players go for large amounts in the last two years

You do know their contracts are running out , right ? Not to mention the wages they are .

We would be lucky to get 1/3 of what you quoted , thats 40m

 

[MU for the win]

I fully agree. With Moyes at the helm, we never had any plan and there was no sense of direction.

To be quite honest, our decline started in the summer of 2008. Ronaldo kicked up a fuss and wanted to leave, but was persuaded to stay. We only got Berbatov with just seconds to spare on deadline day, while we did not strengthen the team, which was a terrible mistake based on what occurred after 08-09, which in my view was our last great season!

Sir Alex should've known that Ronaldo would not be staying around forever, no matter what he said. Right from the moment Ronaldo said he would stay, Sir Alex should've instructed his scouts to be on the lookout for an elite forward and a world-class central midfielder. But no action was taken, which meant that summer 2009 was catastrophic from the word go. At the very same time, we did not even think about reviewing our sporting structure, which to this day has cost us!

We have absolutely no chance of competing with Manchester City short-term. They are a class above on and off the pitch. We need to have a major re-think in where we are heading as a club.

I think we need to start afresh, from top to bottom. We need to implement a long-term strategy, which would reap the rewards in the future. Continuously throwing money at the problem isn't the answer anymore.

Players like Fellaini, Rojo, Smalling, Valencia, Darmian, Blind, A.Young, Mata and Ibrahimovic ALL have to go. We need a long-term RB (Meunier?), CB (Laporte?), CM (Niguez/Goretzka) and a versatile attacker (Guedes/Richarlison?). Bring back Fosu-Mensah and Pereira, and make them cornerstones of our team, promote Tuanzebe and Mitchell, plus give game time to Gomes, Chong, Buffonge, Gribbin and Boonen, who are all tearing it up in the youth level! Hire a young manager (more on that down below) and give him time to put the building blocks in place. For e.g:

Season 1: A season of no expectations, where the players would be allowed to express themselves. There should still be some signs of progress across the season.
Season 2: Aim to finish in the top 4 and win a trophy
Season 3: Challenge for the League and consolidate ourselves in the Champions League.
Season 4: We should be top dogs in the League and Europe

Mourinho is not the right man to lead us forward. I feel that we had to hire him in response to Guardiola-to-Man City. What we should've done was groom Giggs for the job. Van Gaal was a dog of a manager, but what we failed to see was he was laying down the foundations for Giggs to take over, and history has shown that former assistants of Van Gaal have gone on to be successful managers! Giggs would've been given plenty of time and patience to construct a young team, playing proper football.

What angers me about Mourinho is he is on a mission to destroy our creative players, and it is not the first time he has done so. Look what he did to Joe Cole at Chelsea? He then sold De Bruyne and Salah, labelling them as 'not team orientated players'. I look at Mkhitaryan now, and he is crying out for some1 like Guardiola or Pochettino, that would allow him to play his football. I could even say the same for Rashford and Martial!

Mourinho is labelled a 'chequebook manager'. I can't disagree with that. He has not shown anything to suggest that he is interested in building a dynasty, while he is more interested in initiating ugly headlines, which puts our club's name in the gutter. With regards to #Milkgate, I suspect Mourinho may have had a bigger role in addition to his altercation with Ederson!

Going back to what I stated above, Mourinho has to go, full stop! Woodward should consider his position also. He must know that what he is doing is good for the club. He is a magician in bringing in sponsorships and selling our brand, but in terms of transfers, he still has no clue. We need to employ a Sporting Director, and that role could be given to this Ribalta guy. He was immense at Juventus, bringing in the likes of Morata and Dybala 3-4 years ago!

Finally, I want Leonardo Jardim as our next manager. He did a good job managing in Portugal and at Olympiakos, before he was inexplicably sacked. We all know what he has done at Monaco. His philosophy is sound and modern, and prefers his team to play on the front foot. Most important of all, he is a firm believer in youth and is not afraid to give untested youngsters their bow.

Even i couldn't say better. Agree all about Mourihno. He has to go.

I hope, that the next manager is going to be orientated to youth and attacking football.

 

[ash_86]

Yes Chelsea won the League after the departures of De Bruyne and Salah, but just look at how they are performing right now? They are playing under managers who understand their creativity, and they have the tactical freedom to express themselves.

Yeah, let's just push all Mourinho's winnings under the carpet and hold grudges against him for selling couple of unknown players (at that time). There is no magical wand that shows how players are going to end up. Mou did what he thought was right and won the league, that's all Chelsea could ask for. Salah for Liverpool could stand by the halfway line and make a sprint when he gets the ball, void of any defensive duties. Downside of that is the team let's in a shit ton of goals. This is no perfect cure.

 

[Fortitude]

I think it's a pretty interesting topic from the perspective of what we claim to be and what we are when compared to those giant clubs we would fairly perceive ourselves to be peered with.

You can go from team to team of the 'giants' and it really is like the who's who of football. We have DDG and Pogba who are of the equivalent class, the potential of Martial, Bailly and Rashford, and then quite a few blanks in relative terms.

You look at what these clubs do in the market - they horde talent whenever they can and constantly fortify their starting xi's. I've never liked the football arms race that was ushered in during the '00's, but until proven otherwise, there's nowhere else to take things as far as competing at the very highest level goes.

The homegrown superstar quotient in the '68 and '99 teams is indeed massive, but already in the '08 team you can see that a world record CB (highest British transfer fee at the time), a world record teenager (highest ever paid for a teenager at the time), a massive talent from Portugal coming in (who would be a Dembele-level signing pricewise in the here and now) Tevez's bizarre loan agreement, (which would be a fortune in today's terms) went alongside the astute signings of Vidic, Evra and Van der Sar as the backbone of the purchased players alongside our homegrowns. Carrick was seen as an expensive purchase, too. Anyway, point is, money went hand-in-hand with what we had to create something special. Adjusted to today's market, the same outlay would cost, what? close to £500m?

It's just interesting to think that whenever the likes of our old greats are mentioned, they're readily referred to as individuals, but the context is that they got to play alongside team-mates on their level. Someone like Keane was a one man army, as he displayed for his NT, but generally great players thrive because others enable them to play their game and bounce ideas off of. We've to get Pogba multiple team-mates who can claim to be just as good as he is for equivalency to those teams and I just wonder if the amount of investment required to do that will seem like a bridge too far for a club who actually have a budget and financial responsibilities.

The gap between the haves and have nots is growing exponentially - the likes of Arsenal, if they sell their last remaining stars, are going to have such a hard time trying to get back up to par and it feels like if we are serious about taking ourselves to the very top once more, the investment it will take will be eye-watering, and perhaps, out of reach?

 

[Fortitude]

You can do it without spending too much, but spend it wisely like Juventus and few other clubs did. You need sort of luck also but proper scouting and signing talents before they are signed by medium sized/big clubs is the way to go.

For example, there are rumours that big clubs are looking at Savic for big money, just 2 years ago he was signed for just 15 Million, Nainggolan was signed for around same price by Roma.

Juventus are a freakishly unique case though, aren't they?

They cleverly played the pauper so couldn't be milked for all their worth and they had a sensational period of getting every signing right, which is an outlier when compared to everyone else.

 

[Lentwood]

You do know their contracts are running out , right ? Not to mention the wages they are .

We would be lucky to get 1/3 of what you quoted , thats 40m

Not a chance. Herrera, Mhiki, Mata and Shaw would all appeal to a team like Everton, West Ham or Southampton for around the £20-30m mark, regardless of whether they only have a year on their deals there will be clubs willing to make decent offers to try and beat the competition

If Ed can only get £40m for that lot in an era when we pay nearly £40m for a 29yo Matic then we might as well not bother

 

[bond19821982]

Not a chance. Herrera, Mhiki, Mata and Shaw would all appeal to a team like Everton, West Ham or Southampton for around the £20-30m mark, regardless of whether they only have a year on their deals there will be clubs willing to make decent offers to try and beat the competition

If Ed can only get £40m for that lot in an era when we pay nearly £40m for a 29yo Matic then we might as well not bother

Mata,Fellaini,Herrera, Shaw,blind has 6 months left.

So that leaves just darmian and Mikhi . Now, I will let you do the Math

 

[MUFC92]

Yeah, let's just push all Mourinho's winnings under the carpet and hold grudges against him for selling couple of unknown players (at that time). There is no magical wand that shows how players are going to end up. Mou did what he thought was right and won the league, that's all Chelsea could ask for. Salah for Liverpool could stand by the halfway line and make a sprint when he gets the ball, void of any defensive duties. Downside of that is the team let's in a shit ton of goals. This is no perfect cure.

Liverpool concede tons of goals, because their defence is simply not good or strong enough. Players like Lovren, Klavan and Moreno will not win you trophies because they are not good enough. Worse still, they haven't got a proper holding midfielder. Henderson is more of a box-to-box midfielder, while Can has regressed since his debut season. If they can get in 2 proper centre backs and a good holding midfielder, they will stop leaking goals for sure!

I completely disagree that De Bruyne and Salah were unknown players at that time. Both had already come into prominence before moving to Chelsea!

Since you appear to be a Mourinho disciple, what did you make of last night?

 

[Lentwood]

Mata,Fellaini,Herrera, Shaw,blind has 6 months left.

So that leaves just darmian and Mikhi . Now, I will let you do the Math

We’ve got the option to extend all of those contracts by a year at least. Also, what’s to stop us using a bit of common sense, offering them 2yr extensions and then looking for a buyer? There will be takers they are all top half players with 5/6yrs left

 

[ash_86]

Liverpool concede tons of goals, because their defence is simply not good or strong enough. Players like Lovren, Klavan and Moreno will not win you trophies because they are not good enough. Worse still, they haven't got a proper holding midfielder. Henderson is more of a box-to-box midfielder, while Can has regressed since his debut season. If they can get in 2 proper centre backs and a good holding midfielder, they will stop leaking goals for sure!

I completely disagree that De Bruyne and Salah were unknown players at that time. Both had already come into prominence before moving to Chelsea!

Since you appear to be a Mourinho disciple, what did you make of last night?

Liverpool defense has been leaky for years. Despite this their coach bought Ox for 40m. The 'if' you're throwing out there is never going to happen as we've seen time and time again that defense is not their priority.

Thanks for asking, i thought we did good last night. Should have scored more than a goal. I guess it must be burning inside for you to see us getting 3 points, while klopp's team are held at home by WBA. See you again when we drop points.

 

[bond19821982]

We’ve got the option to extend all of those contracts by a year at least. Also, what’s to stop us using a bit of common sense, offering them 2yr extensions and then looking for a buyer? There will be takers they are all top half players with 5/6yrs left

Because real football doesn't work like that. New contract means increased wages and will be difficult to flog them off.

Anyways ,lets agree to disagree and stop here

 

[MUFC92]

Liverpool defense has been leaky for years. Despite this their coach bought Ox for 40m. The 'if' you're throwing out there is never going to happen as we've seen time and time again that defense is not their priority.

Thanks for asking, i thought we did good last night. Should have scored more than a goal. I guess it must be burning inside for you to see us getting 3 points, while klopp's team are held at home by WBA. See you again when we drop points.

Don't input motives here! For the record, it satisfies me to see us win. The fact we won after what happened on Sunday was important. However, our performance was completely off right from the start!

Yes Martial and Rashford should've taken their chances, but you could easily say the same for Bournemouth. We conceded 7 shots on target against a side, who won't make the top 10 (no disrespect intended). Not good enough!

 

[KingMinger22]

What star players?

You mean Pogba and near-retirement Zlatan?

A goalie doesn’t count as a star really, as good as he is.

Whole problem is we haven’t had star players for a good while.

 

[ghagua]

Woodward is star hungry. He will provide the money for the players, it's up to the manager(s) to actually coach them in a system to get the best out of them, instead of just relying on star power to win games.

 

[Jaybomb]

Our team is nowhere near the quality of those sides.

Like it or not, we’re doing exceptionally well to be 2nd in the league considering the lack of quality in our side.

Besides De Gea, Pogba and Ibra... who can you genuinely say is world class? Maybe Lukaku at a push. Bailly, Mata and Matic are all good players and Rashford/Martial have big potential but that’s it. You could make a point that some of those “good” players might not even be good enough for a massive club like United who should be dominating the competition.

Mourinho is getting the best out of those average defenders. If we had Moyes managing us, there’s no way Jones, Smalling and Young would be playing like this. It’s Mourinhos doing. But a manager can only take us so far before the lack of talent is inevitably found out.