Inverted Wingers without Overlapping Fullbacks

[Lentwood]

Could this be the reason for our lack of goals, and the reason our forwards have struggled individually this season?

Last season Rashford had Shaw bombing past on the overlap/underlap on a regular basis, providing a genuine attacking threat. As we know, he enjoyed a career best season with respect goals/assists.

This season, he's had a plethora of different left-backs, most of whom either simply are not as good as Shaw or who may even be right-footed and the goal contributions have dried up.

I noted last night that Rashford tried his only useful move several times, the shift inside onto his right foot, but that on many occasions a League One fullback was easily able to 'over-cover' that side and block his route to goal. That wouldn't be so easy to do if a full back were also flying down the outside, it would take away the option to 'over-cover' and make the defenders life immeasurably more difficult.

Even for the first goal, Dalot was only in position to score precisely because he hadn't overlapped and had taken up a central position on the edge of the area.

We have that problem on both sides. Anthony is also very one-footed, but to be fair to him, he's never had a RB anywhere near as good as Shaw to support him. Having "one trick" doesn't necessarily need to stop an attacker being effective. In fact, many great wide forwards have only really excelled at one or two things.

The only player we've had in years who's really been "successful" on our right flank is Greenwood, who was naturally two-footed and could go in either direction.

In addition, we've seen Hojlund struggle, partly because we simply don't provide much in the way of crosses and balls into the box. It's mainly snatched shots from distance or players running into bodies on the edge of the penalty area. Very rarely do we get behind teams, turn them round and get the ball into dangerous areas.

What do we think? Would flying fullbacks unlock some of the potential in our forwards?

 

[FrankDrebin]

I'm so happy to see Garnacho put the ball into the mixer consistently now, especially on the right.
Was worried he was going end up like Rashford in being limited and all about the individual glory.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I don't buy the argument of the opoknekng thread. Our probltm is the utter selsishness of most of our current starting wide forwards. Rashford is exhibit A. Always trying to shoot or score himself or dribble himself into a shooting op. Even when its so blatantly not required

 

[Lentwood]

I don't buy the argument of the opoknekng thread. Our probltm is the utter selsishness of most of our current starting wide forwards. Rashford is exhibit A. Always trying to shoot or score himself or dribble himself into a shooting op. Even when its so blatantly not required

Yeah but isn't that the point of an inverted winger/wide forward in this system?

Last season when Rashford had 30 goals we weren't really too worried about whether he was selfish or not...the argument has only really reared its head this year because Hojlund isn't scoring and Rashford's goals have dried up.

Basically, I don't believe he's been more or less greedy than previous seasons, I believe he's simply been less successful/effective...and I'm trying to explore the reasons for that

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yeah but isn't that the point of an inverted winger/wide forward in this system?

Last season when Rashford had 30 goals we weren't really too worried about whether he was selfish or not...the argument has only really reared its head this year because Hojlund isn't scoring and Rashford's goals have dried up.

Even last year it was a bother. People merely accepted it because Weghorst really wasn't the type you expected to feed and score

Basically, I don't believe he's been more or less greedy than previous seasons, I believe he's simply been less successful/effective...and I'm trying to explore the reasons for that

Fair enough. I personally disagree.
Because he hit 30 last season, he keeps shooting recklessly in an attempt to replicate it and only attempts dribbles to get a shot off rather than to combine with the center striker. Antony on the other wing too is too desperate to score again.

 

[Mwooyo]

Overlapping FBs are great but We dont need a system of overlapping fullbacks...our wingers should be required to be able to comfortably beat the opposing FB on their own by going either way and creating an opportunity. Rashford and Anthony especially get put through 1v1 with their FB and they consistently fail to beat the FB....as in consistently. That should be the sign for us that they are not manutd quality wingers...period.

The moment we try to play other players to help them do what they should be doing by default is what leads to giving rashford a 300k contract. Its what leads to us signing sancho who is another winger who cant beat the FB and needs overlappers and underlappers.

These players are just not manutd quality players and manutd wingers of old have been required to be able to do that beating of the FB at the minimum. These guys dont even have the minimum.

Garnacho plays and he consistently aims to beat his FB every single time...but wait, senor Rashford needs help from Luke shaw... Jesus christ. Ok, so he needs help to beat the FB but he never offers help to Luke shaw defensively. For me Luke shaw has carried rashford in every single season rashford has played well...so we should aim to keep luke shaw and ditch rashford.

 

[Snow]

Why would Dalot have overlapped Rashford in an attack from the right?

Teams play differently against United this season. Last season they pressed us high and we had difficulty playing out of it. One of the ways we played out of it was long balls to Rashford who had the space because the opposition team was pushed up. Kind of like Villa. We'd win the league if we'd only play Villa. Their style suits us well.

Now they sit further back, our CBs get more touches on the ball, the avenues to Bruno further up are closed down so he has to come further back to receive the ball and the defenders are in position when Rashford receives the ball which effectively makes him worse than useless as his go-to move is to stop so that any kind of run being done elsewhere on the pitch gets nullified by the defense getting time to reacclimate.

It was mentioned time and time again last season when Rashford was scoring goals. In many games he'd score a goal without having much input overall. We just sucked when having to build up an attack, still do, and that's partly because one our attacker's skill set isn't suited to that kind of football. How many fullbacks are there in the league who aren't also fast themselves? Pace isn't enough. It's a minimum requirement for certain positions now.

Rashford is at that point of his career where he must take his career to the next level and change by that change some aspects of his game. The question is, will he be able to do so? Maybe he'll just get lucky and United falls even further down the table so teams won't treat us as a decent team and sit back.

 

[wolvored]

I don't buy the argument of the opoknekng thread. Our probltm is the utter selsishness of most of our current starting wide forwards. Rashford is exhibit A. Always trying to shoot or score himself or dribble himself into a shooting op. Even when its so blatantly not required

Agree. It’s not only Rashfird though, Pelestri aside, all our wingers mainly look to shoot first and only pass at the last second, if they can’t get a shot off.

 

[Longshanks]

Even last year it was a bother. People merely accepted it because Weghorst really wasn't the type you expected to feed and score


Fair enough. I personally disagree.
Because he hit 30 last season, he keeps shooting recklessly in an attempt to replicate it and only attempts dribbles to get a shot off rather than to combine with the center striker. Antony on the other wing too is too desperate to score again.

In fairness I wouldn't attempt to combine with Hojlund in central areas either, he's isn't good enough in that regard. He also likes to move into the area that Rashford likes to attack which is a problem aswell.

Weghorst for his limitations at least did good work in creating space for others to work in and his combination play was ok.


In answer to the OP it's very noticeable that when dalot plays the winger he pays with tends to struggle because Dalot likes to come inside rather than go outside particularly annoying when you also have a inverted wingers who like to come inside onto there strong foot, everything gets crowded on the inside, that then also affects our most creative player (Bruno) because everyone is coming into the space he likes to operate so he ends up in the channels where the space is more often than not but it's not an area he can be most effective.

All the above is basically crap management/tactics.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Agree. It’s not only Rashford though, Pelestri aside, all our wingers mainly look to shoot first and only pass at the last second, if they can’t get a shot off.

I agree. Its all of them bar Pellestri and Amad. Rashford, Antony and Garnacho are all very selfish. Garnacho is the only one with a valid excuse because he is still learning his trade.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

In fairness I wouldn't attempt to combine with Hojlund in central areas either, he's isn't good enough in that regard. He also likes to move into the area that Rashford likes to attack which is a problem aswell.

Weghorst for his limitations at least did good work in creating space for others to work in and his combination play was ok.

...

Weghorst literally played as a midfield target man to create space for Rashford to play as a wide striker. Rasmus was never dved bought to do the same. I also don't buy the claim Rasmus is no good at combo play. Just watch him for Denmark where he plays with wide attackers who dont pretend he is invisible most of the time

 

[Lentwood]

Why would Dalot have overlapped Rashford in an attack from the right?

It wasn't an attack from the right, it was an attack down the left.

Rashford was AMLF and Dalot was LB. Rashford ran at the Wigan fullback in a 'pre take-on' situation, realised it wasn't on and rolled it back to Dalot who took a touch and bent it in with his right foot.

I am saying that even though we scored, its evidence of the fullback consciously choosing not to overlap/underlap but instead move into a central position.

 

[justsomebloke]

Overlapping FBs are great but We dont need a system of overlapping fullbacks...our wingers should be required to be able to comfortably beat the opposing FB on their own by going either way and creating an opportunity. Rashford and Anthony especially get put through 1v1 with their FB and they consistently fail to beat the FB....as in consistently. That should be the sign for us that they are not manutd quality wingers...period.

The moment we try to play other players to help them do what they should be doing by default is what leads to giving rashford a 300k contract. Its what leads to us signing sancho who is another winger who cant beat the FB and needs overlappers and underlappers.

These players are just not manutd quality players and manutd wingers of old have been required to be able to do that beating of the FB at the minimum. These guys dont even have the minimum.

Garnacho plays and he consistently aims to beat his FB every single time...but wait, senor Rashford needs help from Luke shaw... Jesus christ. Ok, so he needs help to beat the FB but he never offers help to Luke shaw defensively. For me Luke shaw has carried rashford in every single season rashford has played well...so we should aim to keep luke shaw and ditch rashford.

That's not actually the case. Rashford succeeds in not much less than half his take-ons (42.6%). Among the 33 players in the Premier League who have at least 50 attempts, there are just 10 with a higher success rate than Rashford, which is pretty decent actually. Among the players with a lower success rate than him are Sterling, Garnacho, Kulusevski, Danjuma, Benrahma, Martinelli, Bailey, Saka and Mitoma, just to name a few.

Antony is much worse though (32.6%).

 

[Mwooyo]

That's not actually the case. Rashford succeeds in not much less than half his take-ons (42.6%). Among the 33 players in the Premier League who have at least 50 attempts, there are just 10 with a higher success rate than Rashford, which is pretty decent actually. Among the players with a lower success rate than him are Sterling, Garnacho, Kulusevski, Danjuma, Benrahma, Martinelli, Bailey, Saka and Mitoma, just to name a few.

Antony is much worse though (32.6%).

Yes but this is a case of misusing stats. First use the eye test and then you go to stats. From the eye test Rashford doesn't attempt many take ons. So many times he has the fb 1v1 and passes back or shoots. You dont need stats to tell you that Rashford has been ineffective as a winger for us for some time now. He doesn't even track back that much... before you share stats of his tracking back...first watch him.

 

[Baneofthegame]

It wasn't an attack from the right, it was an attack down the left.

Rashford was AMLF and Dalot was LB. Rashford ran at the Wigan fullback in a 'pre take-on' situation, realised it wasn't on and rolled it back to Dalot who took a touch and bent it in with his right foot.

I am saying that even though we scored, its evidence of the fullback consciously choosing not to overlap/underlap but instead move into a central position.

What was the reason when he had Reguillon bombing forward?

 

[justsomebloke]

Yes but this is a case of misusing stats. First use the eye test and then you go to stats. From the eye test Rashford doesn't attempt many take ons. So many times he has the fb 1v1 and passes back or shoots. You dont need stats to tell you that Rashford has been ineffective as a winger for us for some time now. He doesn't even track back that much... before you share stats of his tracking back...first watch him.

Firstly, I've watched every minute of every United domestic game this season.

Secondly, no, this is a case of using stats exactly right. Because the point you made wasn't that he's "ineffective as a winger", or that he "doesn't track back that much". The point you made was that he "consistently fails to beat the FB". Which is one that this stat says something direct about, and you're wrong.


"From the eye test Rashford doesn't attempt many take-ons"?

He has attempted 68, the 12th most in the Premier League. So, if that's what the eye test tells you, you should probably pay better attention. Or possibly see an optician.

Some things are facts, some things are fact-related but debatable, some things are opinions. How many take-on attempts Rashford has or how often he beats his man falls into the first category.

 

[Skills]

City played inverted wingers last season with 4 CBs.

The trend now seems to be to move away from overlapping full backs (or at least 2 of them, with Liverpool the only team that still uses 2 of them).

 

[Bwuk]

City played inverted wingers last season with 4 CBs.

The trend now seems to be to move away from overlapping full backs (or at least 2 of them, with Liverpool the only team that still uses 2 of them).

Yeah City killed teams but just dominating with a box midfield behind the striker. Grealish and whoever was the RW stayed wide and they just kept the ball and waited for space to play Haaland in.

We are miles behind in terms of coaching for this. We don't really seem to have any sort of pattern to our play.

 

[sammyhol]

I’m mainly in agreement with the OP here.

More so than any of the other wide players, Rashford is really poorly suited to this year’s system.

He is only productive when deployed in a very specific way. And that way includes an overlapping FB to create 1 on 1 overloads.

In this year’s system, he is too wide, often doubled up on, and too involved in build up which requires decent decision making (his biggest weakness), as opposed to relying on instinctive play in the channels on the shoulders of the last defender.

But I’d argue that with our squad, the best system is the old system. 4231. Double midfield pivot for cover with wide, attacking FBs. Bruno at 10. Garnacho and rashford in the channels. Hojlund at the hold up/link up man.

It’s so frustrating that ETH is so reluctant to try any other systems other than the one he is currently faltering with.

 

[Lentwood]

What was the reason when he had Reguillon bombing forward?

Reguilon was quite wasteful wasn't he, not in Shaw's league. Was it Luton at home when our tactic was for Garnacho (AMLF) to run infield and Maguire to hit the diagonal to Reguilon (LB)? Whichever game it was, I remember Reguilon did nothing with all the time and space he had to deliver.

Either way, this shouldn't be read as me trying to excuse our forwards because you have only to look at my post History to see what I think of Rashford. But...something has changed this season. We weren't THIS inept going forward last year.

Plus...if one struggles, that can easily be put down to form. If two struggle, again, maybe form. If four or five struggle, looks like its at least partly tactical to me.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Reguilon was quite wasteful wasn't he, not in Shaw's league. Was it Luton at home when our tactic was for Garnacho (AMLF) to run infield and Maguire to hit the diagonal to Reguilon (LB)? Whichever game it was, I remember Reguilon did nothing with all the time and space he had to deliver.

Either way, this shouldn't be read as me trying to excuse our forwards because you have only to look at my post History to see what I think of Rashford. But...something has changed this season. We weren't THIS inept going forward last year.

Plus...if one struggles, that can easily be put down to form. If two struggle, again, maybe form. If four or five struggle, looks like its at least partly tactical to me.

Well I agree to an extent, but when your two first team fullbacks are consistently injured the tactics are bound to look bad, especially when like you said Dalot likes to cut inside as well.

But we have fielded:

Amrabat
Shaw
Dalot
Reguillon

Shaw is the only one of real quality at left back and from recent memory I think has played more with Garnacho who has missed a lot of his runs.

Reguillon was ok, nothing spectacular but made a lot of runs forward.

 

[gaffs]

Could this be the reason for our lack of goals, and the reason our forwards have struggled individually this season?

Last season Rashford had Shaw bombing past on the overlap/underlap on a regular basis, providing a genuine attacking threat. As we know, he enjoyed a career best season with respect goals/assists.

This season, he's had a plethora of different left-backs, most of whom either simply are not as good as Shaw or who may even be right-footed and the goal contributions have dried up.

I noted last night that Rashford tried his only useful move several times, the shift inside onto his right foot, but that on many occasions a League One fullback was easily able to 'over-cover' that side and block his route to goal. That wouldn't be so easy to do if a full back were also flying down the outside, it would take away the option to 'over-cover' and make the defenders life immeasurably more difficult.

Even for the first goal, Dalot was only in position to score precisely because he hadn't overlapped and had taken up a central position on the edge of the area.

We have that problem on both sides. Anthony is also very one-footed, but to be fair to him, he's never had a RB anywhere near as good as Shaw to support him. Having "one trick" doesn't necessarily need to stop an attacker being effective. In fact, many great wide forwards have only really excelled at one or two things.

The only player we've had in years who's really been "successful" on our right flank is Greenwood, who was naturally two-footed and could go in either direction.

In addition, we've seen Hojlund struggle, partly because we simply don't provide much in the way of crosses and balls into the box. It's mainly snatched shots from distance or players running into bodies on the edge of the penalty area. Very rarely do we get behind teams, turn them round and get the ball into dangerous areas.

What do we think? Would flying fullbacks unlock some of the potential in our forwards?

I believe it would. But we dont have them. We had one in Reglion for a while and i thought he showed us some good stuff going forward.

The manager should see that our full backs are not offering much from wide positions so should adjust his forwards accordingly.

 

[Dec9003]

Firstly, I've watched every minute of every United domestic game this season.

Secondly, no, this is a case of using stats exactly right. Because the point you made wasn't that he's "ineffective as a winger", or that he "doesn't track back that much". The point you made was that he "consistently fails to beat the FB". Which is one that this stat says something direct about, and you're wrong.


"From the eye test Rashford doesn't attempt many take-ons"?

He has attempted 68, the 12th most in the Premier League. So, if that's what the eye test tells you, you should probably pay better attention. Or possibly see an optician.

Some things are facts, some things are fact-related but debatable, some things are opinions. How many take-on attempts Rashford has or how often he beats his man falls into the first category.

Rashford hasn’t been as effective this season but he’s also at the point of being scapegoated at times. I saw someone say they’d prefer Antony to him which makes no sense. He needs to pick up his form soon but as the thread says getting an attacking full-back behind him will massively benefit him.

 

[Mwooyo]

Firstly, I've watched every minute of every United domestic game this season.

Secondly, no, this is a case of using stats exactly right. Because the point you made wasn't that he's "ineffective as a winger", or that he "doesn't track back that much". The point you made was that he "consistently fails to beat the FB". Which is one that this stat says something direct about, and you're wrong.


"From the eye test Rashford doesn't attempt many take-ons"?

He has attempted 68, the 12th most in the Premier League. So, if that's what the eye test tells you, you should probably pay better attention. Or possibly see an optician.

Some things are facts, some things are fact-related but debatable, some things are opinions. How many take-on attempts Rashford has or how often he beats his man falls into the first category.

It's like you didn't read my post. For you to quote more stats is worrying. A player needs to pass the eye test first...then you can quote supporting stats. Rashford doesn't pass the eye test...he rarely beats his FB to create a goal-scoring opportunity. If he was doing so, then his goals would be up or Rasmus would have a ton of chances to his name. Neither of those things are happening. For example, Garnacho creates more and beats his FB more from the eye test...but he has worse take on stats than Rashford. Don't quote stats when the player doesn't pass the eye test....you only quote them in support of the eye test. Rashford doesn't pass the eye test at all this season. Eye test is a fact as well and the most important one at that. You can quote all the stats in the world, if he doesn't pass the real-life eye test then its moot.

Goldbridge also finally releasing this btw

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[Resch]

It's like you didn't read my post. For you to quote more stats is worrying. A player needs to pass the eye test first...then you can quote supporting stats. Rashford doesn't pass the eye test...he rarely beats his FB to create a goal-scoring opportunity. If he was doing so, then his goals would be up or Rasmus would have a ton of chances to his name. Neither of those things are happening. For example, Garnacho creates more and beats his FB more from the eye test...but he has worse take on stats than Rashford. Don't quote stats when the player doesn't pass the eye test....you only quote them in support of the eye test. Rashford doesn't pass the eye test at all this season. Eye test is a fact as well and the most important one at that. You can quote all the stats in the world, if he doesn't pass the real-life eye test then its moot.

This post does not pass the eye test, or a logical test.

Rashford can beat his FB, but it is worth nothing, because it does not create the space for him or his teammates to score, or he can not use the space, he created for his teammates. Rashford is not effective at the moment and an eye test is all you need to realise it. The question is why is he not effective? Because as a team, we can not distract the defence. Our spacing, our movement and our passing is too slow and sloppy. The team has no synergies, no automations, etc. Overlapping FB could be a way to create space, but there are many tactical moves. ETH, the players can not find them....

 

[Mwooyo]

This post does not pass the eye test, or a logical test.

Rashford can beat his FB, but it is worth nothing, because it does not create the space for him or his teammates to score, or he can not use the space, he created for his teammates. Rashford is not effective at the moment and an eye test is all you need to realise it. The question is why is he not effective? Because as a team, we can not distract the defence. Our spacing, our movement and our passing is too slow and sloppy. The team has no synergies, no automations, etc. Overlapping FB could be a way to create space, but there are many tactical moves. ETH, the players can not find them....

Other wingers dont need all this abracadabra to create chances. Our wingers of old never needed this. As soon as they isolate the FB 1v1, they beat him and create a chance. Wingers of the quality we need must be able to do this at the minimum. If rashford cant do it,we should be discussing replacing him, not changing the system to enable him to do the basics

 

[justsomebloke]

It's like you didn't read my post. For you to quote more stats is worrying. A player needs to pass the eye test first...then you can quote supporting stats. Rashford doesn't pass the eye test...he rarely beats his FB to create a goal-scoring opportunity. If he was doing so, then his goals would be up or Rasmus would have a ton of chances to his name. Neither of those things are happening. For example, Garnacho creates more and beats his FB more from the eye test...but he has worse take on stats than Rashford. Don't quote stats when the player doesn't pass the eye test....you only quote them in support of the eye test. Rashford doesn't pass the eye test at all this season. Eye test is a fact as well and the most important one at that. You can quote all the stats in the world, if he doesn't pass the real-life eye test then its moot.

Goldbridge also finally releasing this btw

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You are beyond reason.

And as for the eye test, there's a reason why I felt the need to check his take-on success rate in the first place. Which is that from my recollection, it happens quite frequently that he does beat the FB when he attempts to dribble down that flank. How effective he is as a left forward overall is a different question.

 

[Mainoonited]

Yeah but isn't that the point of an inverted winger/wide forward in this system?

Last season when Rashford had 30 goals we weren't really too worried about whether he was selfish or not...the argument has only really reared its head this year because Hojlund isn't scoring and Rashford's goals have dried up.

Basically, I don't believe he's been more or less greedy than previous seasons, I believe he's simply been less successful/effective...and I'm trying to explore the reasons for that

Well said.

I think Rashford has never been a creative presence so without his goals his lack of otherwise contribution becomes very telling.

 

[United888]

Dalot doesn't suit with the overlapping left back because he's a right footed. But I think Dalot suits to be inverted right back when he plays with Garnacho as right winger because we can see that Garnacho is capable to put a cross in and stay wide. I think we have a potential good combination on the right for Dalot and Garnacho.

The left flank is a problem because Rashford has been underperforming while our left backs have been injured. Something we need to sort out in the summer transfer window about what kind of left wing and left back we would like to set up. I am concerned with Shaw being injury prone and he's getting closer to be 30 years old in few years means that injury record is only going to get worse.

 

[jem]

Agree. It’s not only Rashfird though, Pelestri aside, all our wingers mainly look to shoot first and only pass at the last second, if they can’t get a shot off.

It's so frustrating; it's almost as if the pass is a disappointing last resort, particularly for Rashford.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Other wingers dont need all this abracadabra to create chances. Our wingers of old never needed this. As soon as they isolate the FB 1v1, they beat him and create a chance. Wingers of the quality we need must be able to do this at the minimum. If rashford cant do it,we should be discussing replacing him, not changing the system to enable him to do the basics

This. When a Rashford dribbles it is only to benefit him. Not the team

 

[Resch]

This. When a Rashford dribbles it is only to benefit him. Not the team

Our attack does not work together. Rashford could beat the FB, but than?
Martial is injured or not in the box.
Hojlund is in the box and covered by defenders.
Our Wingers are not in the box.
Fernandes is not in the box.
McT covers Hojlund in the box.
.....
We have no coordinated move in or aroundthe box. Thats the problem..

 

[Lentwood]

Other wingers dont need all this abracadabra to create chances. Our wingers of old never needed this.

Few things on that...

- Gary Neville and Patrice Evra bombed forward at every opportunity on the overlap (underlap wasn't a thing then)

- David Beckham wasn't great at beating a fullback

- Fullbacks have improved immeasurably in the last decade. Full backs used to be afterthoughts, generally failed centre backs (I think Keane or Carragher said this), now they're specialists in their position and not so easy to beat!

- Modern tactics also play a part. Watch a game from the 90s. So open, so much space to attack and run into. Not so easy now against two solid banks of 5 international footballers defending for their lives.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's so frustrating; it's almost as if the pass is a disappointing last resort, particularly for Rashford.

I think that doesn't quite match with observable reality though. Sure, he likes to cut inwards and dribble to get in a position to shoot from inside the box, and does that fairly often. Which surely isn't very surprising, for a left forward playing in United's system, and he has scored a lot of goals in that way after all. But you also often see him challenging the FB on the outside, trying to get to the line and then deliver either a straight pass in front of goal or a cutback. It seems to me he's quite good at pulling that off, even this season. There's not too many players in the PL who can do that successfully even from a standstill position, but he's one of them. And sometimes he chooses the pass, such as when he got the assist on Dalot's goal against Wigan.

Obviously, it's not coming together in a good way at this point. Maybe it's down to his execution, decisions, sharpness and confidence, maybe it's a shortcoming in team movement and attacking structure, probably it's a bit of both. But it's not like he's doing only one thing, or doing things that are fundamentally stupid for him to do. Explosive quickness, technique and finishing are his key assets, so he's fundamentally playing the kind of game he's best suited for. Also, it doesn't help that we seem to be overly reliant on take-ons by quick wingers to get much done offensively.

 

[londonredmaniac]

Could this be the reason for our lack of goals, and the reason our forwards have struggled individually this season?

Last season Rashford had Shaw bombing past on the overlap/underlap on a regular basis, providing a genuine attacking threat. As we know, he enjoyed a career best season with respect goals/assists.

This season, he's had a plethora of different left-backs, most of whom either simply are not as good as Shaw or who may even be right-footed and the goal contributions have dried up.

I noted last night that Rashford tried his only useful move several times, the shift inside onto his right foot, but that on many occasions a League One fullback was easily able to 'over-cover' that side and block his route to goal. That wouldn't be so easy to do if a full back were also flying down the outside, it would take away the option to 'over-cover' and make the defenders life immeasurably more difficult.

Even for the first goal, Dalot was only in position to score precisely because he hadn't overlapped and had taken up a central position on the edge of the area.

We have that problem on both sides. Anthony is also very one-footed, but to be fair to him, he's never had a RB anywhere near as good as Shaw to support him. Having "one trick" doesn't necessarily need to stop an attacker being effective. In fact, many great wide forwards have only really excelled at one or two things.

The only player we've had in years who's really been "successful" on our right flank is Greenwood, who was naturally two-footed and could go in either direction.

In addition, we've seen Hojlund struggle, partly because we simply don't provide much in the way of crosses and balls into the box. It's mainly snatched shots from distance or players running into bodies on the edge of the penalty area. Very rarely do we get behind teams, turn them round and get the ball into dangerous areas.

What do we think? Would flying fullbacks unlock some of the potential in our forwards?

Yes I think it has a lot to do with it personally.

From a basic pov, I'm not expert but if you play like that you surely you need to create a problem for the opposition with respect to what decision you're going to make..

If all you do is cut inside onto your better foot....you're basically too easy to play against (unless you are absolutely top of the tree world class). Watch defenders play against the likes of Antony. It's comical.

Having the option outside of you puts doubt in defenders minds and is obviously working their players harder as an additional man needs to cover. It's not just goals for me, it's disrupting the opposing teams structure as well.

Anyway, I know feck all about feck all but it makes sense to be able to mix up your approach in the final third.

A player having a serviceable non dominant foot helps too. I understand that it's rare to be as proficient with both but feck me, this is the top level of an international game.

 

[Oranges038]

Other wingers dont need all this abracadabra to create chances. Our wingers of old never needed this. As soon as they isolate the FB 1v1, they beat him and create a chance. Wingers of the quality we need must be able to do this at the minimum. If rashford cant do it,we should be discussing replacing him, not changing the system to enable him to do the basics

Denis Irwin, Gary Neville, Evra, Rafael, Wes Brown etc etc.. all bombed forward down the flanks to offer support. Even Barcelona in their pomp with Messi etc had Alves and Alaba bombing down the sides.

This idea that wingers don't need players to provide an overlap/underlap option, a supporting run to create space or anything of the sort is absolute bollocks.

 

[alexanderplatz]

As others have said above the lack of coordination and cooperation makes it hard for any system to work right now. Generally a player receives the ball and is isolated. It’s really difficult to beat the man - Rashford and Garnacho are great at it on their day - so having our attack based on a skill that has a low success rate would explain why the chances have dried up this year.

I don’t like inverted wide players and there is zero point in it if you don’t have overlaps, otherwise you just make it so easy for the defending team. The way to success is by stretching teams and playing overlaps to get in behind. We very rarely do this and that has to come down to the manager I’m afraid.

United need people in wide positions, especially on the right - though this will be hard to do.
I would sign Robinson from Fulham in the summer at the very least because he is consistent and generally available for selection. Shaw just stops and starts even though I rate him.

 

[Mwooyo]

Few things on that...

- Gary Neville and Patrice Evra bombed forward at every opportunity on the overlap (underlap wasn't a thing then)

- David Beckham wasn't great at beating a fullback

- Fullbacks have improved immeasurably in the last decade. Full backs used to be afterthoughts, generally failed centre backs (I think Keane or Carragher said this), now they're specialists in their position and not so easy to beat!

- Modern tactics also play a part. Watch a game from the 90s. So open, so much space to attack and run into. Not so easy now against two solid banks of 5 international footballers defending for their lives.

Fair enough, game has evolved but some things remain the same. Wingers who beat their FBs will always be in style. ronaldo, nani, giggs were doing this in the late 2000s.

Manutd has been built on wingers with ability to beat their FBs when 1v1. A winger can need help when 1v2 or more but when 1v1, a manutd winger must have the ability to go past their defender and create a chance.

If they do not have said ability e.g Anthony or Rashford this season, we should be looking to replace them...not create imaginary systems to help them beat their FB. There are so many wingers in the prem who are dreaming day and night to go 1v1 with a FB...we should be signing such wingers not keeping wingers need an overlapper and a person in the half space to do the basics

 

[justsomebloke]

As others have said above the lack of coordination and cooperation makes it hard for any system to work right now. Generally a player receives the ball and is isolated. It’s really difficult to beat the man - Rashford and Garnacho are great at it on their day - so having our attack based on a skill that has a low success rate would explain why the chances have dried up this year.

I don’t like inverted wide players and there is zero point in it if you don’t have overlaps, otherwise you just make it so easy for the defending team. The way to success is by stretching teams and playing overlaps to get in behind. We very rarely do this and that has to come down to the manager I’m afraid.

United need people in wide positions, especially on the right - though this will be hard to do.
I would sign Robinson from Fulham in the summer at the very least because he is consistent and generally available for selection. Shaw just stops and starts even though I rate him.

It's an interesting question if we need another good LB. Shaw is, I think, a legitimate part of the foundation, but at this point you just can't assume he'll be healthy and available generally, which underlines the need for a quality alternative option. I don't think Malacia is that, or looks likely to become one. The question is if Dalot could fill that function, especially if we fill the even more pressing need for a quality starter at RB.

 

[Mwooyo]

Denis Irwin, Gary Neville, Evra, Rafael, Wes Brown etc etc.. all bombed forward down the flanks to offer support. Even Barcelona in their pomp with Messi etc had Alves and Alaba bombing down the sides.

This idea that wingers don't need players to provide an overlap/underlap option, a supporting run to create space or anything of the sort is absolute bollocks.

Nobody is saying our FBs should not be able to bomb forward. Am saying that we cannot stockpile these dead wingers who can not beat their FB 1v1. We already have Anthony, we cant afford a dead Rashford...or vice versa. Besides, 90 percent of the time, they bomb forward to help with 1v2 situations. Our wingers must be able to beat FBs when 1v1 and create opportunities...we cant not stock pile this dead wingers and hope to win the big trophies.