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Actually it's mostly tactics but imho schweinsteiger, Memphis, fellaini are not good enough either
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Is it the Players or the Tactics?
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
Actually it's mostly tactics but imho schweinsteiger, Memphis, fellaini are not good enough either
The players were at fault for their failure to score tonight. Our attackers were woeful in and around the box. Van Gaal was at fault for killing the game with the second half substitutions.
Van Gaal has work to do on the goalscoring front. He's a large factor with regards to our inability to score more freely. He also deserves credit for his work going back the way, which has been impressive.
Better attackers and more attacking freedom would be ideal. We're going to have to wait a little longer for it to come together.
Van Gaal has work to do on the goalscoring front. He's a large factor with regards to our inability to score more freely. He also deserves credit for his work going back the way, which has been impressive.
Better attackers and more attacking freedom would be ideal. We're going to have to wait a little longer for it to come together.
It's a tough one, at some point tonight I got really angry and wanted to moan about van Gaal but then I was looking around the pitch and seeing players like Young, Rojo, Fellaini, Darmian, Rooney, Lingard, Blind, Memphis and thought "well what are we really going to get out of these", but then I remembered Fergie's teams of old then got angry at van Gaal again.
Tactics. Another manager would be playing some entertaining stuff this season but we probably wouldn't have as many points. We have some exciting players that are just no free, Van Gaal has even managed to suck the life out of Martial who started off so raw and bright.
yet everyone always does. Today was poor and we do need to do better but people will pretend like that game today is exactly how we've played all season.
dude he's 19 and he scored and got an assist before his injury playing for france about a week ago.
You're talking nonsense.
Our finishing was horrifying tonight. Nobody would have had a problem with a pedestrian 2-0 win tonight, but we had our chances and couldn't score.
Why?
Martial has hit a dry patch after a brilliant start. No serious complaints with him.
Lingard is being asked to do too much, too soon.
Memphis has been a severe disappointment in his first few months with us...not sure why?
Rooney is past it.
We lack a finisher in his prime.
Why?
Martial has hit a dry patch after a brilliant start. No serious complaints with him.
Lingard is being asked to do too much, too soon.
Memphis has been a severe disappointment in his first few months with us...not sure why?
Rooney is past it.
We lack a finisher in his prime.
Think he also probably wanted to rest schweinsteiger and basically we don't have a lot of options in the midfield.
Starting to think that schweinsteiger and schneiderlin just dont work well together.
Both are playing well individually but theres no link up between them at all.
The balance just seems off there to me.
Our build up play is glacial and theres not enough movement or runners in the middle,
the little movement we get is generally from wingers coming inside and clogging up the middle a bit more.
A lot of the time it feels like blind is our most likely player to create a chance by just bypassing the 40 passes in midfield and playing a ball over the top.
Both are playing well individually but theres no link up between them at all.
The balance just seems off there to me.
Our build up play is glacial and theres not enough movement or runners in the middle,
the little movement we get is generally from wingers coming inside and clogging up the middle a bit more.
A lot of the time it feels like blind is our most likely player to create a chance by just bypassing the 40 passes in midfield and playing a ball over the top.
Schweinsteiger's poor performance warranted a sub, nothing wrong with that. I don't rightly remember who we had on the bench but I assume Herrera was still injured so Fellaini was the only option. The sub failed badly but he had to do something. We were just all over the place in that second half. Schneiderlin seemed to be the only midfielder out there and he put in an abysmal second half performance, all of our attackers failed at everything they tried, it was a disaster. I guess or defence was still decent. Our play was just so shocking in that half with so many poor individual performances it becomes difficult to draw any conclusions from it. It was especially baffling after an encouraging first half. We can only hope it can't be that bad again the next game.
It's definitely tactics. You look at the players we have, it's shocking that we're among the worst in the league in creating chances (especially when we have the most possession in the league). All the top teams are always among the teams with the most shots, and they also put them away. We barely get 10 shots a game. When only Stoke, Sunderland, Newcastle and West brom average fewer shots per game, you know something is wrong with the tactics, not the players. What we're doing is basically what is necessary to score 1 or 2 goals most games, but not ever really pushing and potentially leaving ourselves open defensively. We're just a defensive minded team under Van Gaal and the whole strategy is built on not losing rather then winning games.
We don't have a single top class attacking player, our front 4 tonight consisted of a young squad player, a young player who is struggling with the step up from a 3rd tier league, a has-been and a 19 year old who has enormous potential but like most 19 year olds is going to be inconsistent.
You take those players and stick them in the Barca or Bayern sides in place of their elite attackers and they'd be in the same position we are.
You take those players and stick them in the Barca or Bayern sides in place of their elite attackers and they'd be in the same position we are.
Team selection and tactics. I'm convinced a team like below with no handbrake tactics would score plenty of goals and win most games:
* Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin
Squad depth in attacking positions is really poor with Hernandez being sold and Januzaj being allowed to leave on loan not helping the situation one bit.
DDG
Darmian - Smalling - Blind - Rojo
one of* - Hererra
Depay ------ Mata ------ Young
Martial
Darmian - Smalling - Blind - Rojo
one of* - Hererra
Depay ------ Mata ------ Young
Martial
* Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin
Squad depth in attacking positions is really poor with Hernandez being sold and Januzaj being allowed to leave on loan not helping the situation one bit.
I'm starting to believe that no matter which player we get (even if it's both Messi and Ronaldo), LVG will train the creativity and excitement out of those players.
LVG has to go at the end of this season!
LVG has to go at the end of this season!
It's the tactics, Ive seen far less talent players play better. Leicester this season, Everton under Martinez, Swansea & even Southampton. All lesser talented teams but they're far better to watch, it really can't be the players. Buck stops at the managers' table, simple.
I would put it to team selection and tactics.. LvG doesn't change any tactics based on opposition.. His overall play, down to his substitutions are either predictable or when unpredictable are so ridiculous that they have no impact...
Yeah but with the exception of Leicester we are doing much better in the league than those teams. If we were set up to attack constantly we would certainly be losing more points.
To take a word from Van Gaal's repertoire it's all about balance. We just don't seem to have anough emphasis on attacking but the players need to take a lot of the blame here too. They are just not capable of openeing up defences and the quality is not there to play consistent, quality attacking football.
Pace, coupled with talent, is a serious issue. Van Gaal has mentioned this a lot too. Martial, Young and Lingard are the only players that provide even a hint of real pace. The problem is that Martial is the only one you could even imagine in any other top champions league team, and he's just a kid.
We need two or three Robben, Douglas Costa or dare I say Di Maria, type players before we'll see any real change in attack.
The tactics do limit our attacking play, but the level of performances from some of these players sometimes is unacceptable.
I wonder if the tactics and "philosophy" are actually affecting the minds of the players. They don't seem to play with freedom and/or enjoyment, and to me look shackled. For me, the only one who tries to play with freedom and invention is Herrera - and look at the consequences for him.
I make no bones about it, I do not want Van Gaal here next season - regardless of whether we win anything. Some victories come at just too high a price.
I make no bones about it, I do not want Van Gaal here next season - regardless of whether we win anything. Some victories come at just too high a price.
His misplaced arrogance is really starting to feck me off. Constantly trying to take credit for the (rare) bits of class that win us games. It was his specific advice that ended up in Lingard's winner. Or when Hererra scored a lovely goal. Feck off. No it wasn't. It was good players, acting on instinct.
And when he changes it most certainly doesn't always "goes better". There's been a shit-load of times when we've disimproved after he's switched things round. Yesterday was just one example. You don't even need a long memory to come up with another. How about Watford getting back into the game when we played that silly 352?
It's both obviously. There was not enough desire, not enough pressing, running and then we've got the boring tactics. What annoys me is lack of urgency and balls to go for every ball, I know it's right thing to do at times but sometimes our players pull out of possible clashes like a bunch of pussies. Schweinsteiger seems to be the only player nowadays who's going in for every ball even if it looks like it could tear his leg out.
Are they really all that much worse than the players available at Leicester, Liverpool, West Ham, Everton or Spurs? None of these squads are perfect but they've also all had games this season which shat on us from a great height in terms of the style and quality of football on display.
Three out of these five teams have managers in their debut season and don't even get me started on the disparity in funds made available to them to build these squads of players.
A realistic possibility, considering how bloody aged he looks on the pitch these days. Paul Scholes looked fresher and sharper in that charity match than BFS did in his last two games.
Bit of both. Also, player selection is a tactic or a player issue?
Tactics: We are unwilling to take risks when we have possession. Specifically, that means playing quick passes in tight spaces and 1-2s, or sending the fullbacks and 2 holding mids on runs in behind.
Players: Rooney's legs have completely gone and he's not the kind of player who can survive without at least average movement. Not really his fault. Few can. That's a big problem right there. Additionally, our wingers are generally decent players but not very good at dribbling and beating a man.
Sort of both: Van Gaal plays 2 CBs and 2 holding mids who don't contribute much to the attack. The only other top 15 team in Europe I can think of that does that is Atletico Madrid and Gabi does influence play in the final 3rd more than Schweinsteiger. Also, they play a unique sort of style and don't really score goals consistently enough either. I guess PSG as well in that Verrati tends to play deep and Motta is practically a 3rd CB. Not sure how they generate enough of an attack, really.
Tactics: We are unwilling to take risks when we have possession. Specifically, that means playing quick passes in tight spaces and 1-2s, or sending the fullbacks and 2 holding mids on runs in behind.
Players: Rooney's legs have completely gone and he's not the kind of player who can survive without at least average movement. Not really his fault. Few can. That's a big problem right there. Additionally, our wingers are generally decent players but not very good at dribbling and beating a man.
Sort of both: Van Gaal plays 2 CBs and 2 holding mids who don't contribute much to the attack. The only other top 15 team in Europe I can think of that does that is Atletico Madrid and Gabi does influence play in the final 3rd more than Schweinsteiger. Also, they play a unique sort of style and don't really score goals consistently enough either. I guess PSG as well in that Verrati tends to play deep and Motta is practically a 3rd CB. Not sure how they generate enough of an attack, really.
And sadly, energy wise, he doesn't look far off from our younger players who should be running their legs out in order to prove to manager that they are worthy.
Some journalist from the Telegraph claiming a player has told him he is half the player he could be when playing under LVG. Biggest concern has to be if/when the players no longer have faith in his tactics.
Lingard missed quite a few sitters in CSKA, West Brom, Watford and last night. West Brom he redeemed himself, the other two it could have cost us and last night it did. Not that everything's his fault, there was some shocking performances last night. They looked absolutely exhausted.
I think looking at some of the players at the end of the game: Fellaini, Young, Rooney, Lingard, Martial. Are they good enough?
I think looking at some of the players at the end of the game: Fellaini, Young, Rooney, Lingard, Martial. Are they good enough?
The thing is that the quality of their squads is very similar to ours. Yet we are primed to lead the league if we beat Leicester. Would you rather be in Liverpool's place and occasionally playing better football?
Personally, I have faith that once we do get a couple of genuinely fast and quality attacking players in that we will see a big difference.
Why it's taken so long for us to get them is another story.
My first instinct when I read this was Mata. Not sure he'd be one to talk to journalists though.
Their season's only just starting but yes, I'd happily be further down the league if we'd just smashed Chelsea and City. I'm a simple soul. It just takes one or two really good performances to keep me positive for ages. It's the relentless fecking drudgery of life under Van Gaal that has me broken. I've zero optimism left right now and I'm usually a glass half full sort of fan. I fully expect Liverpool to pass us out before the season is over. Their fixtures are easier than ours from here on in and their team is actually playing for their manager.
It's a tough call. There's a whole bunch of players who could make that claim.
Liverpool have been smashed by lesser teams this year themselves. Fair enough they seem to be improving under Klopp but it's very early days for him too. I dunno if I'm being unusually patient or not but I'm not too concerned considering Van Gaal has said he's after the players we need. I feel we were unlucky with Di Maria and don't blame lvg for that. As long as we keep getting results I am happy to wait and see if we can get some quality in in January.
God knows we need it.
Van Gaal has spent money so badly I'm not sure I'd trust him in the transfer market in January.
Both.
A lot of our players just aren't good enough, there is no getting away from the fact; which is quite startling really after all the investment over the past 18 months. Without naming and shaming, there are atleast 10 players in and around the first team who wouldn't sniff a game at the current European elites; excuses will be made for said players no doubt, but it is what it is. United supporters have become so accustomed to mediocrity in recent seasons that they've completely let the standards go. Now even the smallest bit of skill or individual brilliance is lauded to the high heavens; and there are plans already plans underway to build around teenagers when they should instead to playing supporting roles and brought along at a moderate pace. Football is a lot different now from 10-15 years ago, and every big club now protects its youngsters behind a buffer of experienced, world class players.
The tactics aren't that great either. Van Gaal seems obsessed with the system, and you get the sense that he's totally ignoring the progress of individual players as a consequence - something he was accused of doing in the past. A small wrinkle in tactics involves putting the players in advantageous positions, and Van Gaal is really disappointing when it comes to this. Time and time again, we see indecisive reshuffling and tinkering to the detriment of the team's momentum with players playing in positions that don't extract the best out of them. Also, dunno whether the players are dunces who just don't get it, or if Van Gaal can't get them to unlearn and relearn, but there's something very wrong with the way these players are processing things. It shouldn't ideally take this long to handle the mental workload and develop automatism. You have to hope the light on sooner rather than later though.
A lot of our players just aren't good enough, there is no getting away from the fact; which is quite startling really after all the investment over the past 18 months. Without naming and shaming, there are atleast 10 players in and around the first team who wouldn't sniff a game at the current European elites; excuses will be made for said players no doubt, but it is what it is. United supporters have become so accustomed to mediocrity in recent seasons that they've completely let the standards go. Now even the smallest bit of skill or individual brilliance is lauded to the high heavens; and there are plans already plans underway to build around teenagers when they should instead to playing supporting roles and brought along at a moderate pace. Football is a lot different now from 10-15 years ago, and every big club now protects its youngsters behind a buffer of experienced, world class players.
The tactics aren't that great either. Van Gaal seems obsessed with the system, and you get the sense that he's totally ignoring the progress of individual players as a consequence - something he was accused of doing in the past. A small wrinkle in tactics involves putting the players in advantageous positions, and Van Gaal is really disappointing when it comes to this. Time and time again, we see indecisive reshuffling and tinkering to the detriment of the team's momentum with players playing in positions that don't extract the best out of them. Also, dunno whether the players are dunces who just don't get it, or if Van Gaal can't get them to unlearn and relearn, but there's something very wrong with the way these players are processing things. It shouldn't ideally take this long to handle the mental workload and develop automatism. You have to hope the light on sooner rather than later though.
Defo tactics, when United have the ball we are afraid of losing possession. For most of the second half last night it was sideways passing and very little forwards. The players have been drilled to retain possession at all costs and wait for the opportunity to attack. Admittedly we need more creativity and composure, while Lingard played well he doesn't possess the composure needed in front of goal, Martial also snatched at a couple of chances when placed well.
Ashley young needs to start, he takes players on and beats them, Mata also needs to be there, his creativity was sorely missed. Why we took Bastian off last night instead of Schneiderlin, who had a shocker, was beyond me. Rooney was another one who should have came off, I think LVG needs to sub him a couple of times and it could have a positive effect on his game and motivate him to improve his performances. At the minute he's on £300k and plays regardless of performance as he is undroppable.
Ashley young needs to start, he takes players on and beats them, Mata also needs to be there, his creativity was sorely missed. Why we took Bastian off last night instead of Schneiderlin, who had a shocker, was beyond me. Rooney was another one who should have came off, I think LVG needs to sub him a couple of times and it could have a positive effect on his game and motivate him to improve his performances. At the minute he's on £300k and plays regardless of performance as he is undroppable.
I feel like we are lacking in the quality required to be a truly elite team like we once were, the front 4 is nowhere near up to it, but LvG's need for the credit to be on him and the system is becoming increasingly annoying, he seems to have the view that players who will perform as his robots and are interchangeable is the way and he struggles to give any credit when players do well.
Exactly. And if that's annoying to us fans can you imagine how demotivating it is to the players?
You would definitely think so and Rio's hesitation the other night when Lineker asked if our players like LvG was telling. The odd thing is that under Moyes you could see the lack of spirit and dedication in the team, yet when you look at us against Watford on Saturday team spirit doesn't seem to be as low as you'd except playing for such a strange, cold fish manager with the need to be right all the time.
A bit of both but mostly players. Spot the odd team out
Barcelona: Suarez, Neymar, Messi, Iniesta, Rakitic
Real: Bale, Rodriguez, Ronaldo, Kroos, Modric
Bayern: Muller, Robben, Vidal, Lewandowski, Douglas, Ribery
United: Rooney, Lingard, Martial, Depay, Mata, Fellaini
None of our attacking options would be granted a regular first team place in a top 4 club
Barcelona: Suarez, Neymar, Messi, Iniesta, Rakitic
Real: Bale, Rodriguez, Ronaldo, Kroos, Modric
Bayern: Muller, Robben, Vidal, Lewandowski, Douglas, Ribery
United: Rooney, Lingard, Martial, Depay, Mata, Fellaini
None of our attacking options would be granted a regular first team place in a top 4 club
A substantial number of SAF EPL titles were won in a truly poor Premier League which lagged far behind the Serie A and La Liga. May I also remind you, that SAF was able to win just 2 CL titles despite dominating the local pond for decades