Tactics, and manager.
Is it the Players or the Tactics?
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
Watford was the exception that proved the rule. We're far more likely to finish games with a whimper than a roar these days. Yesterday wouldn't have been anywhere near as depressing as it was if we hadn't seen it loads of times before.
We weren't playing Barca last night. We did have better players than our opponents.
Barca rarely play against teams of their own level either. Yet they still have the ample quality needed which makes it difficult to players to mark them out of the game and sort of compensate whenever 1-2 players have a bad game.
We haven't got the talent to thrash every side away. Rooney is finished at top level, Lingard, Martial and Depay are still young and therefore inconsistent, Mata is not being played as no 10 and Fellaini is Bolton's type of player.
Its neither. There are days form just deserts players and manages alike. The passing all game was dreadful. Either too short, too long, too slow or two square, decisions in terms of movement and finishing were bad and the tactics off the bench in second half were just as bad.
It never happened to the United treble team or today's Bayern/Barcelona. Form is temporary, class is permanent
We were at home.
Anyway, with the amount of money spent on our squad since Van Gaal took over if our players are simply not good enough that's as damning an indictment of the manager as criticism of our tactics.
Our squad is good enough to beat a team like PSV at home. They way we played is no excuse of lack of talent or quality, especially since most are international players
LVG has spent a lot of money however we also had alot of problems to sort too, which included bringing players for the rear flanks and build a non existing CM. Its still early days however I cant really identify 1 player who LVG had brought who was a mistake or he shouldn't have bought.
The reality is that years of underinvestment followed by the signing of two high profile players that simply didn't fit in our system had hurt us hard. We're in a silly situation where we sort one issue (ex CM) only for another issue to crop up (ex the forward line had grown too old)
CM didn't look even close to sorted last night.
Its not perfect, but the foundations are there. Bastian and Schneiderlin are great talent and Herrera is a quality player too. It really depends on what how you see it. Is it better than the one with Fellaini, Cleverley, two nearly 40 year old and Fletcher (after the sickness)? The answer is yes. Is it good enough to seriously challenge for the CL and EPL title? That's a difficult question to answer
A bit of both. As a team we really do lack the kind of game chsngers and really top players we had in past teams on the attacking front.
Lingard is not a bad player but we should be doing much better. Then there's the underperforming Memphis and Rooney who hasn't aged well at all.
Lingard is not a bad player but we should be doing much better. Then there's the underperforming Memphis and Rooney who hasn't aged well at all.
Both with the players taking the greater share of the blame by a fair margin.
Louis has set us up to be as structurally sound defensively as possible. The rest is up to the players to be clinical in the chances that they create.
Execution in the final 3rd is the differential here. I know that's an obvious thing to say in isolation but there have been only a handful of games in Louis' time where we have barely created a better-than-decent chance that could be reasonably expected to score from. That tells us that the system is working, it's the clinical nature of the attacking players that is the primary concern.
Louis has set us up to be as structurally sound defensively as possible. The rest is up to the players to be clinical in the chances that they create.
Execution in the final 3rd is the differential here. I know that's an obvious thing to say in isolation but there have been only a handful of games in Louis' time where we have barely created a better-than-decent chance that could be reasonably expected to score from. That tells us that the system is working, it's the clinical nature of the attacking players that is the primary concern.
Yeah I can't argue with that, especially as he signed some of them and has persisted with the others. It beggars belief that a 500 million pound squad can serve up this woeful football, and that a 500 million pound squad still resorts to throwing on fellaini as a plan b tactic and starts numerous games with no defenders in defence and no strikers up front.
Were all caught in this vicious web of great results but mediocre performances and it's all very confusing. I don't know who and what to be angry at or if I'm even supposed to be angry.
It's confusing, I prefer the simpler times under moyes, self pity and humiliating home defeats, life was simple back then.
I believe it depends on everyone's point of view, the fans who don't like possession football and/or LvG will always point the finger towards the manager while the fans who don't have a problem with this transition in the tactics will place more blame on the players' shoulders.
The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. First of all i have to say that imo this squad isn't ready yet to compete for major honors year after year. I've read posters claiming that we're one or two world class players away from becoming a great team under LvG. Well, we are not. We still lack a b2b/ball carrier, Morgan seems that he feels more comfortable occupying the same spaces as Bastian/Carrick and closing down people only in deeper positions, our options on the wings seem more like players who need space in front of them to exploit and not natural dribblers and our FBs, with exception of Shaw, can't offer much when going forward. And our two most experienced attacking players, Rooney and Mata, look absolutely clueless most of the time because they too struggle in congested areas.
So, why are we currently above City, Arsenal and Chelsea in the PL table? It's obvious that the two main title contenders, City and Chelsea, haven't performed as expected thus far but LvG must also be credited with the good defensive organization that our team has shown in the majority of its games. I understand that the very few chances we create per game have made many fans frustrated but our good defensive displays shouldn't be treated as something the teams learn to do within their first week of training. The manager and the players of a team have to work really hard in the training sessions to achieve that.
The result of all that is a team that defends rather well but most of its creative players would probably look better in a more counter attacking approach where they can find spaces more often instead of trying to create them for themselves and their teammates. Until then, i'm afraid, we'll always rely highly on keeping clean sheets and slowing the tempo of our games in order to maximize our chances of winning them. As long as the main plan is to get players on the ball in the wide areas and then cut inside and try to take on defenders, this will always be the case because our players aren't good at it. We finish our games with an average of 5 dribbles per game from the 4 players up front, can you imagine what will happen if we trow bodies forward and try to raise the tempo at Leicester?
I have the feeling that i'm watching counter attacking players trying to play possession football. The question is should LvG give up on his long term plan and switch to a more counter attacking approach now that Chelsea are way behind and City look far from convincing or should he continue implementing his tactics?
If you like to see United play possession football, with someone like Pep taking over LvG in a couple of seasons, you'll appreciate the work that has been done and you'll show the patience that is required because the clear out isn't complete and more players have to be phased out/shipped off. If, on the other hand, you're yearning for a return to the days of old, that same patience will be tested once or twice per week.
The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. First of all i have to say that imo this squad isn't ready yet to compete for major honors year after year. I've read posters claiming that we're one or two world class players away from becoming a great team under LvG. Well, we are not. We still lack a b2b/ball carrier, Morgan seems that he feels more comfortable occupying the same spaces as Bastian/Carrick and closing down people only in deeper positions, our options on the wings seem more like players who need space in front of them to exploit and not natural dribblers and our FBs, with exception of Shaw, can't offer much when going forward. And our two most experienced attacking players, Rooney and Mata, look absolutely clueless most of the time because they too struggle in congested areas.
So, why are we currently above City, Arsenal and Chelsea in the PL table? It's obvious that the two main title contenders, City and Chelsea, haven't performed as expected thus far but LvG must also be credited with the good defensive organization that our team has shown in the majority of its games. I understand that the very few chances we create per game have made many fans frustrated but our good defensive displays shouldn't be treated as something the teams learn to do within their first week of training. The manager and the players of a team have to work really hard in the training sessions to achieve that.
The result of all that is a team that defends rather well but most of its creative players would probably look better in a more counter attacking approach where they can find spaces more often instead of trying to create them for themselves and their teammates. Until then, i'm afraid, we'll always rely highly on keeping clean sheets and slowing the tempo of our games in order to maximize our chances of winning them. As long as the main plan is to get players on the ball in the wide areas and then cut inside and try to take on defenders, this will always be the case because our players aren't good at it. We finish our games with an average of 5 dribbles per game from the 4 players up front, can you imagine what will happen if we trow bodies forward and try to raise the tempo at Leicester?
I have the feeling that i'm watching counter attacking players trying to play possession football. The question is should LvG give up on his long term plan and switch to a more counter attacking approach now that Chelsea are way behind and City look far from convincing or should he continue implementing his tactics?
If you like to see United play possession football, with someone like Pep taking over LvG in a couple of seasons, you'll appreciate the work that has been done and you'll show the patience that is required because the clear out isn't complete and more players have to be phased out/shipped off. If, on the other hand, you're yearning for a return to the days of old, that same patience will be tested once or twice per week.
I hear you. It's so bloody confusing sitting through absolute shit, week after week after week, yet somehow still being well placed to win the league. Almost surreal.It's both in the sense that the players as a group are no where near a title winning team. Some players really are crap in our side and it's nothing to do with form.
That said, the strategy is clearly not being adopted fully by the players and that ultimately is a slant on the manager. I'm beginning to think they've lost faith with him a bit and aren't providing the discipline on the pitch required for it (because why would you when you think it generally sucks?).
That said, the strategy is clearly not being adopted fully by the players and that ultimately is a slant on the manager. I'm beginning to think they've lost faith with him a bit and aren't providing the discipline on the pitch required for it (because why would you when you think it generally sucks?).
No, but injuries to both Carrick and Herrera means we have to play Schweinsteiger every game now – and we don't have any backups when he runs out of energy. On paper or midfield is sorted, although it's still some way to go to match the top teams in that department.
your tactics (sorry - I mean the 'philosophy').
With the players you have - you can get much better results. For too many matches you've relied on De Gea saving you.
Schneiderlin / BFS / Martial / Mata / Herrera are all great players - you can do much better.
With the players you have - you can get much better results. For too many matches you've relied on De Gea saving you.
Schneiderlin / BFS / Martial / Mata / Herrera are all great players - you can do much better.
The players don't look like they have that burning desire to win and they surely aren't enjoying playing football at the moment. But I blame the manager for that - he needs to motivate the players and give them the confidence to go out and show some invention and coach them to make the correct decisions. The team mentality is a direct reflection of the manager and this is not making LVG look good right now.
Yes, the players are professional and should always be desperate to win, but to be honest the majority of this lot really don't seem the brightest bunch and they seem more frightened to make mistakes than to go back into the dressing room after failing to win a game. It isn't healthy to keep harping back to Fergie, but under him the players did everything they possibly could to win, and if it wasn't good enough so be it, but it wasn't for lack of courage.
Van Gaal is so incredibly set in his ways and just doesn't seem to make any compromises on his tactics other than to bring Fellaini on and hit it long when we're in the shit. The United players just don't seem to get what he wants (I'm sure what is being produced on the pitch is not what LVG has in his head) and yet he insists on trying to mould the team to his ideals rather than changing things to try and get the best out of what he has. His patience has gone too far - he needs to change things and get the players enjoying their football, trying to create and absolutely not accepting anything but a win rather than this blind faith that his measured, pragmatic plan will eventually work.
I don't blame people for getting frustrated and even booing. I genuinely don't think he will get his tactics to work here and that he needs to move on at the end of the season. I wouldn't be too shocked or disappointed if he left before then either to be honest, if we brought in someone like Ancelotti.
Yes, the players are professional and should always be desperate to win, but to be honest the majority of this lot really don't seem the brightest bunch and they seem more frightened to make mistakes than to go back into the dressing room after failing to win a game. It isn't healthy to keep harping back to Fergie, but under him the players did everything they possibly could to win, and if it wasn't good enough so be it, but it wasn't for lack of courage.
Van Gaal is so incredibly set in his ways and just doesn't seem to make any compromises on his tactics other than to bring Fellaini on and hit it long when we're in the shit. The United players just don't seem to get what he wants (I'm sure what is being produced on the pitch is not what LVG has in his head) and yet he insists on trying to mould the team to his ideals rather than changing things to try and get the best out of what he has. His patience has gone too far - he needs to change things and get the players enjoying their football, trying to create and absolutely not accepting anything but a win rather than this blind faith that his measured, pragmatic plan will eventually work.
I don't blame people for getting frustrated and even booing. I genuinely don't think he will get his tactics to work here and that he needs to move on at the end of the season. I wouldn't be too shocked or disappointed if he left before then either to be honest, if we brought in someone like Ancelotti.
The two Sch's and Carrick are too similar IMO. Three CM's competing for one place, two of whom are well on their way to retiring.
We're no closer to replacing Scholes than we were when Fergie was in charge. Which has been the single biggest obstacle to "sorting CM" going back for years and remains unsolved despite spending a tonne of cash.
I blame the tactics... we have a great set of players, yet teams like Leicester seem more fluid in attack.
Schneiderlin is very suited to playing in a pair. The Schneiderlin/Wanyama paring at Southampton was great. They both seemed to drop in and push up as a 6 or an 8 when required, and pushed beyond midfield to support the front, which makes me lean more towards the tactics. Schneiderlin looked very capable both as a defensive midfielder and a box to box player, but we've rarely seen Schneiderlin break out of midfield and support the attack, but it's clear that he has it in his locker.
But last season, our best spells of form were with the 4-3-3 with one holding midfielder, and two more advanced midfielders supporting the attack. This season, with the two deep midfielders, we look a man short up front nearly all the time, as both midfielders rarely get forward. Two static holding midfielders in a home game against a team set up to sit and absorb pressure just seems wasteful. Especially when our two most attacking full backs are out with long term injuries, so they don't support the attack enough either. I often can't see where a goal is going to come from, and it's a legitimate concern given the amount of 0-0 draws we've witnessed this term.
I don't see the formation changing, so I'd like to see us go with Herrera and Schneiderlin behind a front 4 (when Herrera is fit again), especially in home games we should be winning comfortably. Both are mobile and are good strong tacklers, and both can handle being pressed whilst playing the ball, and Herrera adds a more creative outlet from deep who will run forward and get in the box. I feel Herrera is a goal threat who we severely under-utilise.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: LVG has been incredibly lucky. He repeatedly strikes me as a guy who doesn't really know what he's doing, rather just flitting from one 'successful' tactic to another, week in, week out. For example, Schwein might get injured so Fellaini comes in, Fellaini has a blinder, we win, and so Fellaini starts the next game. The next game: Fellaini isn't as effective and is then subbed at around 60mins. None of our success seems to come from LVG's masterplan, but instead from fortuitousness and individuality.
The philosophy spiel is bullshit. During his tenure, the 'philosophy' has changed countless times, with the only constant being pointless, slow possession.
The philosophy spiel is bullshit. During his tenure, the 'philosophy' has changed countless times, with the only constant being pointless, slow possession.
It has hurt that the players we bought to be world class or whatever have failed (Di Maria and Falcao). Despite spending so much money we are short on quality in attack. You can see why we chased Muller (and probably Bale) but in reality they aren't going to leave to join us. We should be looking at buying some of the talented tier below the current group at Bayern, Barca, and Real and hoping they reach that level. We have done that with Martial but he is still so young.
I agree, however to claim the big spot again we will need TIME. Some people seem to forget how many times SAF's side was literally raped in Europe. Painful defeats against Roda Volvograd, Galatasaraay and Goteborg bears in mind.
Its so easy to drop from the top spot and so hard to regain it. Hence why people like myself were absolutely gutted when instead of buying quality we settled with safe buys and players who could do the job.
The problem yesterday was largely poor finishing in the first half and BFS's lack of fitness. While he was on the pitch we had a bit of a link between the back and the front but after he went off we went to pieces. Only Herrera is capable of offering similar and he was injured.
Our biggest issue is our lack of ability in the final third, we had more shots and shots on target than PSG did against Malmo last night and yet they scored 5 to our zero.
You have to take chances like Lingard's and Martial's last night, we created enough to score 3 easily yesterday and we didn't take any of them.
Our biggest issue is our lack of ability in the final third, we had more shots and shots on target than PSG did against Malmo last night and yet they scored 5 to our zero.
You have to take chances like Lingard's and Martial's last night, we created enough to score 3 easily yesterday and we didn't take any of them.
Despite signing four of them over the last two years (though one wasn't an LVG signing tbf). I'm not convinced it looks sorted even when they are all fit.
He is 19 and was being given some defensive job on the wing. Lvg isn't the manager of France so he has more freedom.
I think it is more players than tactics or manager. That said last night, in the first half I thought the tactics and players, bar Depay, we're OK. Second half LVG made changes which screwed us up. So tactics and manager were to blame.
When you see the initial tempo and movement of the players in the first 20 minutes last night and in other games you can clearly see what they are trying to do. However, when it is unsuccessful our players do not have the mindset to try something else. I can not believe Depay's performance last night was down to tactics. Why would he act one way, but Lingard and Martial play with more freedom.
When you see the initial tempo and movement of the players in the first 20 minutes last night and in other games you can clearly see what they are trying to do. However, when it is unsuccessful our players do not have the mindset to try something else. I can not believe Depay's performance last night was down to tactics. Why would he act one way, but Lingard and Martial play with more freedom.
His substitutions beggar belief at times. On Saturday bringing a jet lagged Rojo on when Herrera went off. That smacked of not wanting to concede rather than bringing Pereira on and going for a 2nd. It nearly backfired big time. It was only the fact that the players had a go at the end that we salvaged 3 points. It could have easily have been a draw, when actually we should have been out of sight.
He played up front for us yesterday and has always played on the wing for France. He has spent the majority of his career as a left winger and wingers being asked to track back isn't new to a team like united in such a fast paced league.
Again you don't know what you're talking about. When we first signed martial 90% wrote him off and called lvg mad for going large on a unknown or "nobody".now all of a sudden fans are the experts and he's drastically failing under lvg. LVG deserves the bollocking for tactics and his inability to get the team scoring goals. Why do some feel the need to try and blame him for everything, even when a 19 year old doesn't look his sharpest ?
I agree, but if you miss chances you have to create more. Objectively there were enough chances created, otherwise we would have been bombarded with shots on goal stats by now proving how LvG shackles the players. The problem is that a lot of chances were not created because of indecisiveness, players having no ideas how to get forward from possession in midfield ordefence, and when moving forward, no ideas how to get to the danger area with just simple passing in triangles and moving at the right moment. Too much match time to create chances was wasted by passing around without any good ideas.
The players are certainly not shackled, Martial, Depay and Lingard lost a lot of possesion trying to get past their defenders, there was a lot of risky passing that led to loss of possession because of failing technique, there were lots of shots from not so very good positions. That you can blame the players for, but it's the simple passing and moving to get from defence to midfield and from midfield to attack and from the wings to the danger area that is not working, especially after Schweinsteiger was subbed. They just don't see it, when they see it, it's too late and the space is gone.
That's a problem between the tactics and the players, it might the problem of the players, it's a problem only the manager can solve. And he should have solved it by now or have at least as much players who do see it (Schweinsteiger, Herrera, Blind) on the pitch.
It's all well and good saying you have to create more, but our players aren't good enough to create more. Even Real and Bayern only had one more shot in target than us. We've created enough chances in the past few weeks to win games, the issue is we've been missing them. If you're losing matches because your keeper is dropping them in the net you don't blame the defence.
LvG has made changes recently to address our lack of creativity, playing wingers at fullback and 2 strikers were possible. It's being overlooked because we've been missing chances. We need a real goal threat in the team and right now we don't have one. Lingard isn't that player, Memphis is adapting, Rooney is ageing and Martial has been overplayed and run into the ground.
It's an issue but by all accounts we are after that type of player, they're just rare and don't move often. It's why these things take time and can be frustrating.
That's besides the point. The finishing wasn't good, just as is wasn't saturday, and the chances they creat aren't that clear cut. But that's a fact they have to deal with for now. The way to deal with that is to create more chances. That's not a guarantee, and they can still fail trying because they're technically and athletically not good enhough.
But yesterday, and this has happened before, they waste parts of the match with their indecisiveness in the build up. Time they could have created a chance in, or at least have a try. But if they're just passing it around, waiting for others to come up with an idea how to get forward, that's unneccessary or at least should be unnecessary. They're not as creative over 90 minutes as they could have been when they would just hurry up and start an attack as soon as they have possession. I don't mind a slow build up, but start the build up immediately. If they manage that, at least they can create 12 possibilities to score instead of 8 for example, just by beeing efficient with the time they have possession.
You could at least use consistent examples instead of shoehorning Fellaini and Lingard in there who together have played 300+ minutes less than Rooney. Take the two out for Herrera. Point remains the same without the exaggeration and yes, the difference is clear.
Which matters zero in 5 years if both are won.
are , along with most every other team. 500m on this boring shit. he'll sell 5-6 more next summer and start from zero again. the club will be better in the table and more boring to watch.
Lingard and Martial both missed clear cut chances yesterday.
Or to not expect a team to create an abnormally high number of chances to accommodate poor finishing. If your goalkeeper is throwing them in you don't blame the defence. At some point our strikers are going to have to start putting away a decent proportion of the chances we create like every other successful club does. We aren't Barcelona, Madrid or Bayern, we aren't going to create 5-6 great chances a game.
This was prevalent in the last 30 minutes, not before. And you can't just ping the ball forwards at speed sometimes. We don't have the players to do that and teams are set. You do that and then you lose the ball and have to win it back and you lose any pressure you build. Good teams playing against set defences use rapid passing in the final 3rd, not through the middle third because it makes it impossible to build up pressure. We lack the players to do that in the final third, it's not exactly a secret either given the players we tried to target in the transfer window.
If you pick 6 players then one of Lingard or Fellaini have to be in there.
Tactics. It's been a long time since an LvG team actually has played great football for more than just a handful of games.