I think the formation had a massive effect on the game today, for no other reason than the midfield being entirely outnumbered. I lost count of the amount of times a City player had at least 10 yards of space in front of him.
Is it time to settle to a 352?
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I think the formation had a massive effect on the game today, for no other reason than the midfield being entirely outnumbered. I lost count of the amount of times a City player had at least 10 yards of space in front of him.
15 league games against the other sides in the top 6 since Mourinho became our manager.
6 games with 4-3-3.
1 won, 1 lost, 4 drawn. 2 goals scored, 5 conceded (because of the 4-0 away at Chelsea last season).
5 games with 4-2-3-1.
4 lost, 1 draw. 2 goals scored, 7 conceded.
4 games with 3-4-1-2/3-5-2.
3 won, 1 lost. 6 goals scored, 2 conceded.
Switching from the back 3 to the 4-2-3-1 against City was an easily predictable disaster looking at our record in similar games with the two formations. We simply cannot play the latter system to a high enough standard and are attempts to do so are repeatedly exposed.
6 games with 4-3-3.
1 won, 1 lost, 4 drawn. 2 goals scored, 5 conceded (because of the 4-0 away at Chelsea last season).
5 games with 4-2-3-1.
4 lost, 1 draw. 2 goals scored, 7 conceded.
4 games with 3-4-1-2/3-5-2.
3 won, 1 lost. 6 goals scored, 2 conceded.
Switching from the back 3 to the 4-2-3-1 against City was an easily predictable disaster looking at our record in similar games with the two formations. We simply cannot play the latter system to a high enough standard and are attempts to do so are repeatedly exposed.
How would 352 have made any difference in that respect?
We got overrun in midfield last week playing 352 against a team not nearly as good as City. We still would have only played those two in midfield with Lingard ahead of them. The only thing difference would have been one of Martial and Rashford sacrificed for Lindelof with Smalling squeezing into the middle.
You're still running with this i see.
Not necessarily. 3 centerbacks would have allowed young and Valencia squeeze up slightly and perhaps tuck in when City had the ball. Lingard would have played a little deeper with the option of a second striker on the cards.
Genuinely believe the 352 would have provided far more stability to a midfield whom were practically ghosts out there.
It depends on the opponent and the personnel. I'm not a fan of sticking to one formation as it'll become predictable and teams will find a way of stopping us.
Thats possible but i doubt it, we would have probably just ended up playing a back 5. But if 352 would have worked better and resulted in us not getting overrun in midfield City then why didn't it work last week against a team not nearly as good, or against Chelsea for that matter? Same thing happened in both those games.
There's no magic formation that will solve all our problems, today we just played a side that are currently a lot better than us. On top of that we played poorly and on top of that we made two bad mistakes from set plays that lead to City's goals.
352, 4231, 433 are simply formations on paper personnel and tactics are much more important. Mourinho said in the summer he only wanted 3 at the back as an option to play against other teams that play that formation. And thats exactly how it's played out during the season, so i've no idea why anyone was surprised he went back to a formation he's more comfortable with against City today seeing as they play with a back 4 as well.
With everyone fully fit and firing I would love to see us line up thusly:
In my mind those are the best players we have, as I have posted above. But obviously there is no way Jose is going to drop Lukaku.
De Gea
Bailly ____ Lindelof ____ Jones
Valencia ____ Matic ____ Pogba ____ Young
Lingard
Rashford ____ Martial
That said. With an ideal January bringing in Ozil and Sandro:Bailly ____ Lindelof ____ Jones
Valencia ____ Matic ____ Pogba ____ Young
Lingard
Rashford ____ Martial
De Gea
Bailly ____ Lindelof ____ Jones
Valencia ____ Matic ____ Pogba ____ Sandro
Ozil
Rashford ____ Martial
Honestly, that is a fantastic team. Especially when you consider the players competing for first team places, such as Smalling, Rojo, Lingard, Herrera and Lukaku.Bailly ____ Lindelof ____ Jones
Valencia ____ Matic ____ Pogba ____ Sandro
Ozil
Rashford ____ Martial
In my mind those are the best players we have, as I have posted above. But obviously there is no way Jose is going to drop Lukaku.
Should've played 3-5-2 today, we're at home we should've went out and attacked Manchester City.
I didn't like the decision to change the system before the game. The Watford and Arsenal games may not have been flawless, but at the very least we looked dangerous on the counter attack under that system, which was always going to be massively important in a game like today, and we had winning momentum and confidence playing that team.
We threw all that out the window, and if it had worked, or even if we played half-decent but lost, I'd give the manager the benefit of the doubt. But we were utterly hopeless. I didn't see one aspect of our set up or tactical approach that screamed "that's worked really well today"... It's not like I even have high standards, if we even looked slightly like a football team today then I'd give Mourinho a pass and say he had his reasons, he knows what he's doing.
I thought before the game the change in system was odd, in hindsight it's even worse.
We threw all that out the window, and if it had worked, or even if we played half-decent but lost, I'd give the manager the benefit of the doubt. But we were utterly hopeless. I didn't see one aspect of our set up or tactical approach that screamed "that's worked really well today"... It's not like I even have high standards, if we even looked slightly like a football team today then I'd give Mourinho a pass and say he had his reasons, he knows what he's doing.
I thought before the game the change in system was odd, in hindsight it's even worse.
Couldn't agree more. We lack quality in possession, which would ultimately lead to us dropping deeper and deeper until the 3-5-2 had become 5-3-2 like against Arsenal. There is no magic formation that will solve our possession problems. At least when we have Pogba on the team the quality of the balls over the top improves and with it our goal threat, something that was lacking today. However as we saw against Arsenal, having Pogba on the pitch does not mean we'll necessarily have more of the ball.
I don't know if it's a case of instructions, coaching, confidence or what. But our midfield seems to lack the ability to play a give-and-go short passing game and retain possession under pressure. When other teams have a real go at us it's panic stations. We seem to lack composure, we hoof the ball and a lot of the touches we take when under pressure seem very heavy. Adding another capable CM and playing the formation City play, with 3 in the middle, might help but I don't really know what else will.
As soon as I saw 4 at the back I knew we'd lose that game with citeh.
It doesn't work. 3 at the back works for us, we just disposed of Arse away using it, and Arse away is a bit like citeh at home.
We should've stuck with it, and failing that, we should've switched to it at half time - a young Mourinho would've made that switch I believe.
Really, really hoping that we get back to the 3 immediately because that 4 is shite for us, and it certainly, without doubt cost us that game.
If we could replay it with this, I know we'd at least turn up...
---------------------DDG------------------
----Lindelof-------Smalling-------Rojo----
Val-------Herrera---------Matic-------Young
--------------------Lingard------------------
---------Rashford----------Martial----------
Or even this....
---------------------DDG------------------
----Lindelof-------Smalling-------Rojo----
Val-------Herrera---------Matic-------Young
--------Rashford--------------Martial------
---------------------Rom--------------------
I'm still a Mourinho fan, and I've loved the counter attacking footy we've served up in recent months, but that game earlier has dented a lot of faith I have in him.
It was, in my opinion, Mourinho's worst single match as a United manager thus far.
He basically handed the game, and thus the PL to citeh, they weren't even that good (in that one game).
It doesn't work. 3 at the back works for us, we just disposed of Arse away using it, and Arse away is a bit like citeh at home.
We should've stuck with it, and failing that, we should've switched to it at half time - a young Mourinho would've made that switch I believe.
Really, really hoping that we get back to the 3 immediately because that 4 is shite for us, and it certainly, without doubt cost us that game.
If we could replay it with this, I know we'd at least turn up...
---------------------DDG------------------
----Lindelof-------Smalling-------Rojo----
Val-------Herrera---------Matic-------Young
--------------------Lingard------------------
---------Rashford----------Martial----------
Or even this....
---------------------DDG------------------
----Lindelof-------Smalling-------Rojo----
Val-------Herrera---------Matic-------Young
--------Rashford--------------Martial------
---------------------Rom--------------------
I'm still a Mourinho fan, and I've loved the counter attacking footy we've served up in recent months, but that game earlier has dented a lot of faith I have in him.
It was, in my opinion, Mourinho's worst single match as a United manager thus far.
He basically handed the game, and thus the PL to citeh, they weren't even that good (in that one game).
We defended miles better today (individual errors not withstanding) than we did against Arsenal.
3-5-2 leads to us losing our defensive shape. The issue with today's match was more to do with playing 2 rather than 3 in midfield. 4-3-3 is the best solution. It gives us a solid defence and midfield, and a better chance of the attack getting the service they require.
When you play a patient, conservative game like Mourinho prefers, 3 at the back turns into 5 at the back and nobody know where they're supposed to be. So everyone just drops back.
3-5-2 leads to us losing our defensive shape. The issue with today's match was more to do with playing 2 rather than 3 in midfield. 4-3-3 is the best solution. It gives us a solid defence and midfield, and a better chance of the attack getting the service they require.
When you play a patient, conservative game like Mourinho prefers, 3 at the back turns into 5 at the back and nobody know where they're supposed to be. So everyone just drops back.
De gea
Bailey Blind Roj0
Valencia matic Pogba Young
Lingard
Rashford Martial
I think that has the best equality between attack & defence on a 352.
Pur over defensive play is made even worse by playing a sweeper as our 3rd CB like smalling - making the distance between our defence & midfield greater; the midfield therefore drop down constantly more than needed to. Playing one of either blind or Lindelof should give more freedom for the midfield to act like a midfield 3 when needed.
Bailey Blind Roj0
Valencia matic Pogba Young
Lingard
Rashford Martial
I think that has the best equality between attack & defence on a 352.
Pur over defensive play is made even worse by playing a sweeper as our 3rd CB like smalling - making the distance between our defence & midfield greater; the midfield therefore drop down constantly more than needed to. Playing one of either blind or Lindelof should give more freedom for the midfield to act like a midfield 3 when needed.
I posted this yesterday but will post it again. Statman Dave makes a good case for the switch and wanted us to employ it against Stockport City.
the 3-5-2 in my mind based on pure ability and what I would want to see is
DDG
LINDELOF BAILLY JONES
VALENCIA SHAW
MATIC POGBA
MARTIAL
RASHFORD LUKAKU
DDG
LINDELOF BAILLY JONES
VALENCIA SHAW
MATIC POGBA
MARTIAL
RASHFORD LUKAKU
We need to play Blind at CB to make the 3 at the back work - he gives us the balance of an extra man in defence & midfield which will effect both attacking & defensive game.
MARTIAL can work at CAM/SS but will need to learn how to drop back deep or be the one who is the furthest forward putting pressure on the defence; for that reason Lingard should play on form. Martial should play instead of Lukaku.
I know yours is not based on form but still
De gea
Lindelpf Blind Roj0
Valencia matic Pogba Young
Lingard
Martial Rashford
But I do like the idea of martial as a CAM/SS too
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I like Blind but I think with Lindelof you have that ball carrying pass making CB so with Bailly and Jones who are our two best defenders imo it solidifies that back 3. Remember this is my ideal 11 but with Jones and Shaw its unlikely to work out.
Gonna give this thread a bump.
I've said this before, but why haven't we pushed this formation a bit. The two so called problem area's of our side are RW and having that 3rd midfielder to free up Pogba.
I think the 352 can really fix both of these issues, and get the best out of the players we have.
In defence we can have add Lindelof to the back line. A player who is supposedly good with the ball at his feet. If this is true, he can push a bit higher than the normal line to act as a CDM at times, almost turning the formation into a diamond while in possession, and if we lose the ball, have him drop back once we are back into our shape.
Our wingbacks have more license to get forward.
In midfield Pogba has a bit more freedom as we have the extra defender and Matic knows he has sufficient cover to help him out when counter attacks happen against us.
Up front, you have Lukaku, who can have a player playing off him. Wether this is Sanchez, Martial or Rashford, it gives Lukaku some support.
In bigger games, you can always drop the #10 for a CDM to sure up the pitch, but two formations are:
I've said this before, but why haven't we pushed this formation a bit. The two so called problem area's of our side are RW and having that 3rd midfielder to free up Pogba.
I think the 352 can really fix both of these issues, and get the best out of the players we have.
In defence we can have add Lindelof to the back line. A player who is supposedly good with the ball at his feet. If this is true, he can push a bit higher than the normal line to act as a CDM at times, almost turning the formation into a diamond while in possession, and if we lose the ball, have him drop back once we are back into our shape.
Our wingbacks have more license to get forward.
In midfield Pogba has a bit more freedom as we have the extra defender and Matic knows he has sufficient cover to help him out when counter attacks happen against us.
Up front, you have Lukaku, who can have a player playing off him. Wether this is Sanchez, Martial or Rashford, it gives Lukaku some support.
In bigger games, you can always drop the #10 for a CDM to sure up the pitch, but two formations are:
De Gea
Bailly - Lindelof - Jones
Valencia -------------------- Shaw
Matic - Pogba
Sanchez
Lukaku - Martial
(In this, Mata can play the Sanchez role, and Sanchez or Rashford can play the Martial role.)
or
De Gea
Bailly - Lindelof - Jones
Valencia ------ Matic ------- Shaw
Herrera - Pogba
Lukaku - Sanchez
Anyway, will it happen, I don't see it, would it work? Maybe not. I am thinking of how I'd play the team, unfortunately, I don't think Mourinho has that much adventure in his tactics to even think about it. Thats not a diss on him, I just don't see his tactics complementing this type of playBailly - Lindelof - Jones
Valencia -------------------- Shaw
Matic - Pogba
Sanchez
Lukaku - Martial
(In this, Mata can play the Sanchez role, and Sanchez or Rashford can play the Martial role.)
or
De Gea
Bailly - Lindelof - Jones
Valencia ------ Matic ------- Shaw
Herrera - Pogba
Lukaku - Sanchez
4-1-4-1 would suit us as well. With the players we have at the moment Matic could play in front of the defence and with fellaini/Herrera aside Pogba, he could be relieved of his defensive duties and play slightly ahead of Fellaini/Herrera, with Sanchez one side and Martial/Rashford the other, Lukaku being the striker. If we bought in a proper ball playing DM who could pass it out from the back, Matic could replace Fellaini/Herrera.
I like the second formation better. Our midfield would still be overrun with Matic and Pogba in there, plus our build-up play would be tough to watch imo. I do think a 3-5-2 would benefit many of our players. Lukaku would not be left alone up front and Alexis could be closer to goal at all times which is what you want with him. I don't think Shaw is ideal as a wing-back though, but with Young it could work. It's still not brilliant and would need a few more players to make it truly effective, but i can't see why we shouldn't try it out.
Would require Bailly back in fitness order for it to really work. We’d need one of the back 3 to push up into midfield and he’s the only reliable CB capable of kicking a ball properly, unless you rate Lindelof defensively of course.
Edit: forgot about Rojo. He’s actually quite useful on the ball when he’s not skying it into the stands aiming at some imaginary squirrel.
Edit: forgot about Rojo. He’s actually quite useful on the ball when he’s not skying it into the stands aiming at some imaginary squirrel.
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The first formation you laid out is the one we used away at CSKA, Watford and Arsenal. We won all those games, handsomely. When we've used 4-3-3, such as at Everton, it was another good win with Pogba bossing the MF, as we all know he can do. Why then, does the manager insist on reverting back to a system (4-2-3-1) that besides the start of the season has yielded horrendous performances?
We can hypothesise all day about how the team should set up but unless JM sees the merits in changing the system we will just have to put up with these drab performances.
With Chelsea next in the league it wouldn't surprise me to see us revert to 3 at the back
With the way we are shitting ourselves when pressed, I would definitely bring Rojo and Blind back and go for 352.
It's a lot better than 4-2-3-1. Some of our best games have come in a 3-4-3 formation.
It wouldn't surprise me to see us stick with exactly the same formation
Yep. And get rolled over in midfield. And our manager doing nothing about it.
This is where I stand with it as well. I can't see it the way going forward but our current squad suits it more than a 4-2-3-1.
Agree. I recall a very good argument against 352 when your opponent park the bus with 451, do you leave 3 CB behind to mark a single striker? 352 work for Chelsea because Luis often push up as DMF (or even box2box), which works like magic in some games but disaster in another.
Till Fellaini and Herrera are back to full fitness, yes.
Yeah exactly the way Mourinho has played it with 3 out and out centre backs just wouldn't work in most games it would leave us a man short in attack. As you say in games at home where teams sit deep and defend we just don't need 3 CB's.
And it looks like the 352 fad is dying out again anyway, Juve and Spurs have switched back to back 4 formations and Chelsea are not exactly pulling up trees this season using it.
Bailly Lindelof Rojo
Valencia Herrera Matic Pogba Shaw
Sanchez Lukaku Martial
Two ball playing Centre Backs. One lightening player to deal with fast runners in behind.
Valencia and Shaw can bomb on all day. Herrera offers energy in the middle (until we get an upgrade), being a nuisance and offering a passing option.
Pogba is free to drive into the left space with Shaw and Martial. Martial cuts inside, Shaw is closer to him to double up on the outside. Add Pogba and we can overload that side. Same works with Sanchez, he can come inside to the middle and Tony will offer width.
Personally I think that would work.
Valencia Herrera Matic Pogba Shaw
Sanchez Lukaku Martial
Two ball playing Centre Backs. One lightening player to deal with fast runners in behind.
Valencia and Shaw can bomb on all day. Herrera offers energy in the middle (until we get an upgrade), being a nuisance and offering a passing option.
Pogba is free to drive into the left space with Shaw and Martial. Martial cuts inside, Shaw is closer to him to double up on the outside. Add Pogba and we can overload that side. Same works with Sanchez, he can come inside to the middle and Tony will offer width.
Personally I think that would work.
The fullbacks, or wingbacks need to vastly improve to make this work. Valencia is second guessing every little move he makes with the ball, making him slow with link up and safe and negative in his passing. Young is an average player and Luke Shaw has yet to impress me as an attacking fullback after his injury.
I always feel the 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 that work have wingbacks performing at the highest level. I not so sure we have the options to make it work.
I always feel the 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 that work have wingbacks performing at the highest level. I not so sure we have the options to make it work.
Our fullbacks aren't good enough to play 3-5-2.
We'd get totally fecked playing 11 outfield players and no goalkeeper, are you insane?
I don’t think we’d be allowed to play twelve players.
433
De Gea
Valencia
Jones
Smalling
Shaw
Matic
Herrera
Pogba
Sanchez (right)
Lukaku
Martial (left)
From an outsider I feel this is your best side (with Bailly currently injured). Pogba in a 3, Martial on the left.
De Gea
Valencia
Jones
Smalling
Shaw
Matic
Herrera
Pogba
Sanchez (right)
Lukaku
Martial (left)
From an outsider I feel this is your best side (with Bailly currently injured). Pogba in a 3, Martial on the left.
Yep, in this formation you HAVE to have defenders who are good on the ball, they need to carry the ball forward into space and draw a player away from midfield.
If we have Smalling/Jones +1 just sitting there on the half way line ( like we did in that spell we played it ) then it means 1 less attacker and is actually more defensive.
Bailly/Rojo/Lindelof would be better but I don't trust them 3 as a back line.