I meant apart from Tammy.
One thing Tammy's emergence seems to be doing is keeping Kane well on his toes and motivated which is good to see.
Is this the best (most promising) England squad (inc manager) we've had?
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One thing Tammy's emergence seems to be doing is keeping Kane well on his toes and motivated which is good to see.
Think the last sub last night shows that Southgate would prefer to see TAA in a different position if possible. I honestly think James could dislodge TAA at right back because he is an excellent attacking full back and a very solid defender. James is a high level crosser of the ball too.
Think Tammy gives you a plan B option too because you can hit him long.
Whether it’s potentially the best I don’t know but we’re a pretty good side to watch at least, playing some good football and effectively too. Keep it up and if a few of the younger payer can keep developing we could have a great foundation for years to come.
Southgate has actually done a fantastic job so he deserves a lot of credit.
Southgate has actually done a fantastic job so he deserves a lot of credit.
Player for player the team under Sven was significantly better. Playing as a team then yes this team is more exciting and has already achieved more despite having a lot of young players still.
Can't resist biting on this. It's a good point that player for player the 'golden generation' was definitely mostly superior. But you also have to take into consideration squad depth. The 'golden generation' should have done better with better management but was also let down in attack. Rooney was often injured or out of form for tournaments and Owen was generally in decline from about 2004 onwards. That left us with Heskey and Defoe as back ups. Across the forward line now England can pick from Kane, Sterling, Sancho, Rashford, Abraham, CHO and Ox if need be. That is definitely extremely impressive in terms of depth and bears no comparison to recent England squads from last decade and a half.
Gerrard and Lampard were both exceptional players in their own right but very similar in function and required the players alongside that allowed them to shine ie. Alonso, Makelele, Essien. Also famously didn't work well together and somehow ended up shunting Paul Scholes, arguably the best player, onto the left. How one of the first two wasn't dropped for Carrick, based on the latter's ability to bring out the best in players alongside, is something that irked me greatly which I will never understand. He should have been first name on the team-sheet for this reason alone.
However to return to comparison, and somewhat echoing @Raees point that some of our midfielders are more fluid and technically minded than Gerrard and Lampard (who were great PL players) but players like Ox, Mount, Winks, Maddison (and Foden coming through) while less likely to score a 30 yard screamer (mind you maddison on freekicks), are very fluid on the ball, comfortable dribbling in tight spaces, keeping the ball with triangular passing for extended periods. This makes for much more control of the midfield than the gung-ho heroics of Lampard and Gerrard. Gerrard was often an absolute liability in tournaments for this kind of approach when it wasn't going to plan.
CDM and CM is the area I'm worried about as while Henderson is great for Liverpool in the way they play, if you put him in the City team (which I think has more in common stylistically with how England want to play, I think he's not quite good enough technically to flourish here (though I think he's actually technically underrated). I'm also not that impressed with Rice and think he's overrated, though he is probably the best 'destroyer' option. Winks should be first choice right now with a 'destroyer' alongside him, but this is an area sorely lacking in depth.
In terms of FBs, as @Schmeichel's Cartwheel pointed out yesterday, in terms of RB the depth is astonishing with Walker, Trippier (back to form and starting for Atleti), TAA who is like the second coming of Beckham, wall bissaka and Reece James, who I think is likely to top the lot as the most complete RB. LB, Chilwell is excellent but not on Ashley Cole's level, who was arguably the best player in many of the England teams. Shaw can be excellent, if rumours are true that he is indeed still alive. If Henderson can continue great form he will be a step up on Pickford.
CBs there is no comparison to Rio, Terry, King, Carragher. Maguire is a good intelligent player but he can be a bit clumsy with the ball and is not quick. Stones is and unfortunately likely always will be a liability. However I would say Tomori is well on his way to reaching a Rio level. And our own Tuanzebe also has the potential to be outstanding.
The glaring weakness in current England setup is CM/CDM, although Winks functionally provides a lot, there is not really another player like him close in ability. What we would give for a Carrick in this squad now.
Overall though I think this England squad is underrated. This is the most promising England team in ages based upon having the components to control games and create multitudinous chances. Something that was actually sorely lacking from the 'golden generation' and hence we only really looked like we were going to win something in 2004 when White Pele was on absolute fire. Opponents in qualifying have been bad, but we are scoring for fun against pretty much all of them. Putting 7 past Montenegro is not as easy as it looked.
Moreover the team spirit in the England camp is excellent and shouldn't be overlooked as a factor. A lot of these players grew up playing together in various club and international systems and it shows. It is a massive component to any team and a good indicator of how things are going to go when the chips are down. Something which absolutely crippled the 'golden generation'.
So, based on our ability to create chances, control games and score goals, I would say we have by far best opportunity since 2004 to go far in a tournament and even win one. The 'Golden Generation' never really convinced as a team and I remember sitting through dozens of performances that can only be described as pathetic. While being tight at the back with a WC defence, we looked creatively insipid, this was multiplied by risk averse and frankly dumb management. The current England team is much better, with so many components that can be easily replaced if injury or poor form strikes.
Gerrard and Lampard were both exceptional players in their own right but very similar in function and required the players alongside that allowed them to shine ie. Alonso, Makelele, Essien. Also famously didn't work well together and somehow ended up shunting Paul Scholes, arguably the best player, onto the left. How one of the first two wasn't dropped for Carrick, based on the latter's ability to bring out the best in players alongside, is something that irked me greatly which I will never understand. He should have been first name on the team-sheet for this reason alone.
However to return to comparison, and somewhat echoing @Raees point that some of our midfielders are more fluid and technically minded than Gerrard and Lampard (who were great PL players) but players like Ox, Mount, Winks, Maddison (and Foden coming through) while less likely to score a 30 yard screamer (mind you maddison on freekicks), are very fluid on the ball, comfortable dribbling in tight spaces, keeping the ball with triangular passing for extended periods. This makes for much more control of the midfield than the gung-ho heroics of Lampard and Gerrard. Gerrard was often an absolute liability in tournaments for this kind of approach when it wasn't going to plan.
CDM and CM is the area I'm worried about as while Henderson is great for Liverpool in the way they play, if you put him in the City team (which I think has more in common stylistically with how England want to play, I think he's not quite good enough technically to flourish here (though I think he's actually technically underrated). I'm also not that impressed with Rice and think he's overrated, though he is probably the best 'destroyer' option. Winks should be first choice right now with a 'destroyer' alongside him, but this is an area sorely lacking in depth.
In terms of FBs, as @Schmeichel's Cartwheel pointed out yesterday, in terms of RB the depth is astonishing with Walker, Trippier (back to form and starting for Atleti), TAA who is like the second coming of Beckham, wall bissaka and Reece James, who I think is likely to top the lot as the most complete RB. LB, Chilwell is excellent but not on Ashley Cole's level, who was arguably the best player in many of the England teams. Shaw can be excellent, if rumours are true that he is indeed still alive. If Henderson can continue great form he will be a step up on Pickford.
CBs there is no comparison to Rio, Terry, King, Carragher. Maguire is a good intelligent player but he can be a bit clumsy with the ball and is not quick. Stones is and unfortunately likely always will be a liability. However I would say Tomori is well on his way to reaching a Rio level. And our own Tuanzebe also has the potential to be outstanding.
The glaring weakness in current England setup is CM/CDM, although Winks functionally provides a lot, there is not really another player like him close in ability. What we would give for a Carrick in this squad now.
Overall though I think this England squad is underrated. This is the most promising England team in ages based upon having the components to control games and create multitudinous chances. Something that was actually sorely lacking from the 'golden generation' and hence we only really looked like we were going to win something in 2004 when White Pele was on absolute fire. Opponents in qualifying have been bad, but we are scoring for fun against pretty much all of them. Putting 7 past Montenegro is not as easy as it looked.
Moreover the team spirit in the England camp is excellent and shouldn't be overlooked as a factor. A lot of these players grew up playing together in various club and international systems and it shows. It is a massive component to any team and a good indicator of how things are going to go when the chips are down. Something which absolutely crippled the 'golden generation'.
So, based on our ability to create chances, control games and score goals, I would say we have by far best opportunity since 2004 to go far in a tournament and even win one. The 'Golden Generation' never really convinced as a team and I remember sitting through dozens of performances that can only be described as pathetic. While being tight at the back with a WC defence, we looked creatively insipid, this was multiplied by risk averse and frankly dumb management. The current England team is much better, with so many components that can be easily replaced if injury or poor form strikes.
The fact is though that every time this England team faces a proper top international team (or even a good one) they fall apart.
I agree with most saying the sqauds of old, individually were much more talanted but what this current squad has in abundance which non of the former teams had is blistering pace!
Just looking at previous squads down the years you could argue players such as Anderton, Walcott, Downing etc. but none of them have the class compared to Sterling, Rashford, Walker, TAA etc.
It also proves how modern football now has changed. Again, looking back at the 'golden generation', because of the wealth of individual class available, we were shoe-horning everyone in, Scholes at left wing was always one that I remember just so Gerrard and Lampard could play CM. But looking at the starting line ups for the majority of games played in all the World Cups and Euros since 1996, we have never been blessed with pace as a majority and often was very one dimensionalin our play.
Just looking at previous squads down the years you could argue players such as Anderton, Walcott, Downing etc. but none of them have the class compared to Sterling, Rashford, Walker, TAA etc.
It also proves how modern football now has changed. Again, looking back at the 'golden generation', because of the wealth of individual class available, we were shoe-horning everyone in, Scholes at left wing was always one that I remember just so Gerrard and Lampard could play CM. But looking at the starting line ups for the majority of games played in all the World Cups and Euros since 1996, we have never been blessed with pace as a majority and often was very one dimensionalin our play.
Yes those are the facts, it's undeniable. But there are a lot of new faces in this England set up even from the 2018 world cup. New entries are TAA (as a starter), Chilwell, Tomori, Sancho, Winks, Maddison, CHO, Abraham, Mount. Also the core performing players from before like Kane and Sterling are older and more experienced. There is a lot of goals added with these additions, definitely a team that can go places.
Possibly, but possibly not. It's interesting to see so many young players come through but none of us know how good most of them will be - they could be world beaters or could just disappear into nothing within a year or two. Far to early to judge them and certainly far to early to be talking as if this will be some great generation of players. Once they play well and beat some of the better teams in the world then I'll start to take notice.
The attack is brilliant, the rest of the team definitely isn't.
These are fair points and you're right we don't know how it will pan out. I guess my point is that back in 2004 onwards we were talking about a great generation based on the quality of players we had, but that came to naught. Whereas the current team has much better prospects imo.
I would say it's logically preferable to have a team with a big depth of very, very good players and a good system, than a team with 5 or 6 "WC" players forced in together in a system that doesn't work and with no weapons in attack once Rooney gets injured or out of form.
You lot looked brilliant yesterday. Dunno how good Montenegro is, but still, flashy stuff. The stage is set for the biggest it's coming home letdown in decades.
Not ever no, but I'm excited by it. You'd have to have a stick up your arse not to be, and there's plenty who do obviously.
You don't have to think they're going to win the World Cup to enjoy the amount of talent we have, and at such good ages too.
A front three of Sterling Kane Rashford is something you'd dream of at United. With Tammy as back up too. Also have the best young attacking RB in the world, and the best defensive one when he finally gets called up. Chilwell looks very exciting too.
Can't complain too much about the midfield either.
You don't have to think they're going to win the World Cup to enjoy the amount of talent we have, and at such good ages too.
A front three of Sterling Kane Rashford is something you'd dream of at United. With Tammy as back up too. Also have the best young attacking RB in the world, and the best defensive one when he finally gets called up. Chilwell looks very exciting too.
Can't complain too much about the midfield either.
I hope they don't dredge that f*&^ing song up again. They obviously will. Such a shite band too the Lightning Seeds. The Lighthouse Family of the britpop years.Very exciting going forward but we do have a problem at centre-back that may well leave us very slightly short against the best. I was there last night and seen a few England games live recently, and our full-backs are MILES up the pitch all the time. Better opposition will hurt us down the flanks quite easily. England are a Van Dijk & Kante away from being a complete team.
I think the potential is there to end up with a winning team...really hard to tell though. Lots of youngsters with potential at the moment.
Nah. Shite core
Nah, that was 2018. Croatia are not that good at all and us not getting to the final killed a lot of people's hope. We repeated the bottle job against the Dutch in the Nations League a year later. Most people are expecting a QF exit.
Who cares about the nation's league though. I tried with all my heart to get hyped for the final, but honestly didn't really give a feck.
As a foreigner i dont know 1/3rd of the squad. The other 1/3 i knew from playing FM.
In terms of promises the golden generation looks way ahead. on paper at least
In terms of promises the golden generation looks way ahead. on paper at least
Decent compared to other top european teams? Or decent compared to past england teams?
They look better in years. But still far from the level of the usual suspect in europes
Maybe that's because you were losers you dismissed it to deal with the disappointment. This lot seemed to care.
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When did this happen? Only time I can remember them playing against is Croatia which was an even game won in extra time. I guess in nations league they played poorly against the Netherlands, but it was still won in extra time even if Netherlands should have scored more.
In the nations league we also beat Croatia at Wembley and Spain away (their first competitive defeat in Spain for 31 years).
Our front three of Kane, Sterling, and Sancho (with young talents Rashford and Abrahams behind them in the pecking order) is equal to most if not every national team in the world. We also have a wealth of talent developing in the midfield and defensive areas - Chilwell, Maddison, Foden, TAA, and Mount being the standouts - plus a competent keeper backing them up.
This team has the talent to go a long way.
This team has the talent to go a long way.
It's different to the squad we had back in the early 2000s.
That team was packed with power players, guys who were great in the PL but might not necessarily have thrived overseas.
This team looks like it's going to be much more technical, much more of a European side. There's already a couple playing in Europe and that trend might well continue.
Personally I can see the current side becoming even better than the Gerrard-Lampard one but we'll have to see in time.
That team was packed with power players, guys who were great in the PL but might not necessarily have thrived overseas.
This team looks like it's going to be much more technical, much more of a European side. There's already a couple playing in Europe and that trend might well continue.
Personally I can see the current side becoming even better than the Gerrard-Lampard one but we'll have to see in time.
No, really, it wasn't. I still get annoyed when someone brings up the 2010 final or 2014 penalty shoot out against Argentina. I honestly don't even know what the score was in the nation's league final. I want to say 1-0, but I'd have to google it. I still remember the exact flow of play in the 2010 final leading up to Spain's goal. The deflected free kick from Sneijder that should've been a corner. The horror when I realized Webb was going to send of De Jong, but didn't.
I'd rather we would've won it, but I would personally prefer losing that final 45-0 if it meant qualifying for the euro's. I hope in time, I will care about the Nation's league, but as of yet, I don't.
Don't forget the likes of Greenwood, Gomes and Sessegnon who all look set to be top players.
The team that played against Brazil in 2002 was 173 x better.
'Platinum Generation' this lot
Southgate is exactly what England need in terms of squad harmony, media relations etc. he’s perfect for all the soft side.
But he’s an empty head tactically.
There’s a question of whether all you need to be as an International manager is the facilitator of good performances from good players and string a run of 5-7 wins together to win something.
He’d be an awful club manager I think.
I don't think he's an empty head tactically at all. He has looked at this England sides strengths and weakness and looked at the formations that many of these players play at club level and settled on a 4-3-3. Our strongest position is CF and the wide forward positions by far so this is a formation that serves a front 3. He's basing it on Liverpool's application of the system which makes sense when you think about it. We have a number of 8s that play this formation at club level: Henderson, Barkley, Mount, RLC and Ox. We also have one of their full backs and another that resembles Robertson in Chilwell. The alternative would be to play more compact and focus on a counter attacking style but this would result in us playing much more boring football that people would complain about.
Its disappointing that we didnt use a formation to fit our players during the golden generation instead of trying to stick square pegs in round holes, we would have looked great with 3 at the back. From the 2004-2006 squad -
Gk- Robinson/james
Rcb- campbell/carragher
Cb - Terry
Lcb- Ferdinand
Rwb- beckham
Lwb-Cole
Rcm- hargreaves
Lcm-gerrard/Scholes
Cam-lampard/gerrard
St-Rooney
St-owen
Gk- Robinson/james
Rcb- campbell/carragher
Cb - Terry
Lcb- Ferdinand
Rwb- beckham
Lwb-Cole
Rcm- hargreaves
Lcm-gerrard/Scholes
Cam-lampard/gerrard
St-Rooney
St-owen
Quite interesting when you look at who's likely to miss out next summer IF everyone stays fit. Kyle Walker, Trippier, Rose, Alli, Lingard. Not saying they're all great but they were all regular starters at last world cup so shows how quickly the first 11 has been redeveloped which is always important between tournaments.
Think Southgate's done well there as "the golden generation" went on at least one tournament too far, likes of Gerrard and Lampard were both involved in 2014 world cup. in their mid 30s.
Think Southgate's done well there as "the golden generation" went on at least one tournament too far, likes of Gerrard and Lampard were both involved in 2014 world cup. in their mid 30s.
The depth is growing all the time. We’re in a position to leave good players at home now.
Think Foden could make a late run for the squad IF he goes out on loan in January. That's an area where England are lacking.
This is brutal
I think the Alli question is an interesting one, in WC 2018 the team was almost built around him. I don’t see what role he has in a 4-3-3 at all.
04 was most promising. It just all went to shit when Rooney got hurt, and for some reason Sven deciding to always sub off Scholes when we were winning and needed to keep the ball more.
That Croatia match was the biggest piss take in terms of what could have been. Losing 1-0, sven puts Scholes central and lampard out wide, scholes scores his first goal in fck knows, Helps set up Rooney and we score 4. Then Sven changes lampard back to central, we concede and never see scholes In the middle again for that tournament.
That Croatia match was the biggest piss take in terms of what could have been. Losing 1-0, sven puts Scholes central and lampard out wide, scholes scores his first goal in fck knows, Helps set up Rooney and we score 4. Then Sven changes lampard back to central, we concede and never see scholes In the middle again for that tournament.
If we do well, its because everyone else is declining.
The side lacked technical leaders though.