Israel defies Bush.

[AhmedDimwitson]

Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>

I have had a good education, including a degree in Elecronic Engineering a difficult subject. I made every effort to improve my chances fot the future - and in spite of that I was laid off by an American/Dutch company during restructuring last Christmas. With a shortage of work available in the technical sector, I have had difficulty finding a permanent job. Are you saying that if I went on welfare - and I may have to pay for food and lodgings soon - that I am a blight on society?
You've probably never been in a position of poverty, probably had every advantage - that's the only way I can understand your attitude toward those out of work.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

You do not belong to the long term un-employed cathegory. You are young, well educated and probably looking for a job which is the relevant issue? You can't do anything if a company have to cut expenses you will get unemployed and then it's great to have a system that will provide a safety and temporary stability, there are those who get sick and need a similar type of stability.

What I am against is that people live on these benefits their entire life and use the system without actually contributing to it through taxes or even try to find job. Miss-usage of it can ultimately lead to its collapse, people are only willing to pay so much tax.

 

[Mancunian Candidate]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Yeah, that would solve it </strong><hr></blockquote>

It always get's lost on the Yanks in the end doesn't it. I think you took my post a little too literally.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
<strong>

It always get's lost on the Yanks in the end doesn't it. I think you took my post a little too literally.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was kidding, no worries.

 

[passiveman]

It's not an argument Math - I'm disturbed at the right-wing rantings coming from AhmedDimwitson, a lot of these protests are legitimate, they may well be flush with members of communist groups, but the primary reason they are happening is the sense of outrage at the IDF in it's spurious use of force against a civilian population albeit one which may include terrorists. This man wishes to write off all the protests as some form of left wing conspircy - I have never once voted for a left wing party - but I will be attending the next protest outside the Israeli embassy in Dublin because of my dissatisfaction with aspects of their administration's approach.

Oh but of course I am unemployed, therfore a blight on society...

 

[AhmedDimwitson]

Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>Oh but of course I am unemployed, therfore a blight on society...</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> , this not what I said

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>It's not an argument Math - I'm disturbed at the right-wing rantings coming from AhmedDimwitson, a lot of these protests are legitimate, they may well be flush with members of communist groups, but the primary reason they are happening is the sense of outrage at the IDF in it's spurious use of force against a civilian population albeit one which may include terrorists. This man wishes to write off all the protests as some form of left wing conspircy - I have never once voted for a left wing party - but I will be attending the next protest outside the Israeli embassy in Dublin because of my dissatisfaction with aspects of their administration's approach.

Oh but of course I am unemployed, therfore a blight on society...</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the people want to protest, and march, that is their right. They can say what they want, as long as they conduct themselves properly. Would people be able to do that in those Arab states, such as Iraq? So, people should take advantage of such a situation. My problem isn't that they are a "blight on society," my problem with these marchers is that I think they just deem the Palestinians as these poor little innocents, which is far from the case, and I don't see them protesting against Palestine when waves of suicide bombers are attacking Israel. Its the irony of being critical of the United States in seemingly only supporting Israel when you are seemingly only critical of Israel.

 

[Mancunian Candidate]

Well, suffice it to say, with the coming to power of that twit Sharon, we are now faced with an unsolveable problem. At this point, I think there is going to be substantial bloodshed on a very large scale in the middle east before any kind of semblance of peace can be reached.

There's always a point where there is no turning back, there was in WW 1 & 2, Korea etc. We have reached that point here. Neither side will back down until they've suffered substantial casualities and loss of life - that will be the only reality that will put any sense in anyone now - they will eventually grow tired of war, and call a truce, hopefully Sharon doesn't drag the entire world into it with him, because he is a warmonger, of that we can be positive.

 

[AhmedDimwitson]

Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>It's not an argument Math - I'm disturbed at the right-wing rantings coming from AhmedDimwitson, a lot of these protests are legitimate, they may well be flush with members of communist groups, but the primary reason they are happening is the sense of outrage at the IDF in it's spurious use of force against a civilian population albeit one which may include terrorists. This man wishes to write off all the protests as some form of left wing conspircy - I have never once voted for a left wing party - but I will be attending the next protest outside the Israeli embassy in Dublin because of my dissatisfaction with aspects of their administration's approach.

Oh but of course I am unemployed, therfore a blight on society...</strong><hr></blockquote>


But seriously, do you think anyone cares if 500 commies dance around outside a embassy? what's the constructive thing in it? They have told Colin Powell to feck off, they have told the EU to feck off, now what's the point in these hippie gatherings? It's only annoying the normal people. The only way you can make Israel react is through the use of economic power, put EU sanctions on them. If they are unable to trade with the EU and run a war similarly the 30 percent they get from the US isn't very helpful. They will take more debt and their economy will collapse if they don't obey. Now this is contructive and it can only happen through politics.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
<strong>Well, suffice it to say, with the coming to power of that twit Sharon, we are now faced with an unsolveable problem. At this point, I think there is going to be substantial bloodshed on a very large scale in the middle east before any kind of semblance of peace can be reached.

There's always a point where there is no turning back, there was in WW 1 & 2, Korea etc. We have reached that point here. Neither side will back down until they've suffered substantial casualities and loss of life - that will be the only reality that will put any sense in anyone now - they will eventually grow tired of war, and call a truce, hopefully Sharon doesn't drag the entire world into it with him, because he is a warmonger, of that we can be positive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am sure you would prefer Sharon than Netenyahu, who seems even more right-wing. Honestly, this incessent criticism of Sharon is funny. Be critical of both Sharon and Arafat. I mean, Arafat has had the chance to have peace for god's sake but has rejected it time and again.

 

[Roy]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

I am sure you would prefer Sharon than Netenyahu, who seems even more right-wing. Honestly, this incessent criticism of Sharon is funny. Be critical of both Sharon and Arafat. I mean, Arafat has had the chance to have peace for god's sake but has rejected it time and again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Netanyahu is not by any means more right-winged than Sharon!

Don't be fooled by what he currently says. He is a very shrewd man and he knows exactly what to say in order to get re-elected.

Truth is he's just another man with no plan.

 

[Mancunian Candidate]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

I am sure you would prefer Sharon than Netenyahu, who seems even more right-wing. Honestly, this incessent criticism of Sharon is funny. Be critical of both Sharon and Arafat. I mean, Arafat has had the chance to have peace for god's sake but has rejected it time and again.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Arafat deserves mentioning, correct, in only that he's a bigger twit than Sharon. To think they gave the bastard a Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[Tareq]

& they gave perez nobel prize also.

 

[Roy]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>& they gave perez nobel prize also.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And rightly so as well.

 

[Tareq]

Can't control Genien refugee camp Roy ?..I'm hearing reports via several channels that yr heroec army comitted massacers their ...

 

[Tareq]

When you look at pro palestinians demos all over the arab world, try to realize the age of ppl marching......the vast majority r young ppl.....Israel succesfully i should say planted the seeds of hatred against her n the arab world even n moderate countries like Eygpt & Jordan.

 

[Roy]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>When you look at pro palestinians demos all over the arab world, try to realize the age of ppl marching......the vast majority r young ppl.....Israel succesfully i should say planted the seeds of hatred against her n the arab world even n moderate countries like Eygpt & Jordan.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yippie!

So now you're gonna hate us?

Feck

And I had a feeling you lot already did?

 

[zXe]

Originally posted by Roy:
<strong>

Yippie!

So now you're gonna hate us?

Feck

And I had a feeling you lot already did?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

If working towards educating the future generation isn't a good idea in your opinion, what is?

 

[Tareq]

heey roy : what's the matter ?,,can't keep it quiet & decent language?
Is it irritaiting to u to state facts ? is it annoying to c almost the whole world condem & reject the actions of yr government?

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

I don't think you could disagree that, for some reason, the Muslim states are the most backwards economically, and much has to do with the religious culture.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course it does, they don't worship the Capitalist God - in fact its one of their chief hates of Western Culture - the worship of money. They have a point to a certain extent. Funnily enough this belief is quite compatible with Christianity too.

 

[FresnoBob]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>When you look at pro palestinians demos all over the arab world, try to realize the age of ppl marching......the vast majority r young ppl.....Israel succesfully i should say planted the seeds of hatred against her n the arab world even n moderate countries like Eygpt & Jordan.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think that Israel "planted the seeds of hatred" against itself in the Arab World, Tareq, that hatred was manifested by the Arab groups who tried to run the Jews into the sea in 1947 and has run virtually unabated, in word and deed ever since. Leaders in Egypt and Jordan have tried, courageously, to overcome the hatred, mistrust, and possibly insurmountable obstacles that stand in the way of peace, even at the cost of their own lives.

I don't condone the current Israeli conduct, which seems destined to lead to a "final solution" in the area by leading to real war with devastating consequences and significant human casualties. However, I suspect that the people who have sewn the most hatred in recent years are the renegade Islamic "clerics" who encourage young people to become suicide bombers, to enlist in the various groups that other posters might describe as "terrorist."

I also believe that many Islamic governments have assisted in maintaining the climate of hatred by their abject failure to assimilate, relocate, or welcome the displaced Palestinians. It appears that they are more than content to let the Palestinians suffer in place and utilize the dispair and suffering as a catalyst to hatred of Israel that diverts attention from the ineptitude of those states to institute reforms, advance economically and socially, or to render true aid to those they claim are their "brothers."

 

[Mancunian Candidate]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>When you look at pro palestinians demos all over the arab world, try to realize the age of ppl marching......the vast majority r young ppl.....Israel succesfully i should say planted the seeds of hatred against her n the arab world even n moderate countries like Eygpt & Jordan.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's correct, and the majority of these people have been denied a proper education because of the circumstances. The only fix is to start providing for these people, They've had their hope taken away, and now we've got some serious consequences because they've been ignored too long.

 

[Tareq]

being displaced since 1948, Being deprived from their basic rights, being humilated on road blocks, ...ect,,,no wonder they blow themselves.

 

[Raoul]

Both sides are to blame in this. Both sides have commited atroicties. The only way out is for both sides to negotiate, and the first step towards that is to gain credible leadership. Sharon and Arafat have zero credibility when it comes to the ability to honestly negotiate peace settlements, hence there will have to be new leadership brought forth on both sides. Netenyahu is also not going to cut it as a replacement for Sharon, since he advocates completely dismantaling the Palastinian Authority. The next Palastinian leader has to unite and gain political control over all of the factions, otherwise this tit for tat cycle will never end.

 

[Blazing RED]

Originally posted by Roy:
<strong>

If I knew any aliens I'd tell them to smack one right on that El Akza place and right on the Western Wall...

Problem solved

</strong><hr></blockquote>

and maybe one on the temple mount and chuck a couple around tel aviv ...

and these pro palestinian marches aren't only in arab countries ...
ive even seen some in argentina

 

[Blazing RED]

Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
<strong>

That's correct, and the majority of these people have been denied a proper education because of the circumstances. The only fix is to start providing for these people, They've had their hope taken away, and now we've got some serious consequences because they've been ignored too long.</strong><hr></blockquote>

denied a proper education?
if u didnt realise most of these rallies are taking place at universities

 

[Tareq]

Raoul: i think most of us here here agrees on the fact that both sides to blame 4 the current crisis,,,but i 'd like to know how humilating Palestinians in check points by Israel's army officers can contribute to Israel's security.?!....
How can not allowing pregnant Palestinian women from going to a hospital can contribute to Israel's security ?!
both sides to blame,yes,,but Israel is getting the results of miss treating Palestinians 4 the last 35 years or so.

 

[AhmedDimwitson]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>Raoul: i think most of us here here agrees on the fact that both sides to blame 4 the current crisis,,,but i 'd like to know how humilating Palestinians in check points by Israel's army officers can contribute to Israel's security.?!....
How can not allowing pregnant Palestinian women from going to a hospital can contribute to Israel's security ?!
both sides to blame,yes,,but Israel is getting the results of miss treating Palestinians 4 the last 35 years or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What are those check points? when they go from one part of palestine to the other? i.e. from west bank to gaza? or is that a check point for those who enter israel?

 

[Tareq]

They have check points between Palestinian cities ,,4example the ordinary time 4 a journy from Ramallah to naplus takes 30 minutes ,,,with all the blocks & checkpoints it takes half a day.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Blazing RED:
<strong>

denied a proper education?
if u didnt realise most of these rallies are taking place at universities</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe fecking Fundamentalist schools.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>Raoul: i think most of us here here agrees on the fact that both sides to blame 4 the current crisis,,,but i 'd like to know how humilating Palestinians in check points by Israel's army officers can contribute to Israel's security.?!....
How can not allowing pregnant Palestinian women from going to a hospital can contribute to Israel's security ?!
both sides to blame,yes,,but Israel is getting the results of miss treating Palestinians 4 the last 35 years or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have you ever wondered why they are in the Occupied Territories in the first place...Perhaps it was because someone invaded them... I wonder who...

 

[mathiaslg]

I see the European Paliament approved a resolution calling from trade sanctions against Israel (or the suspension of preferential trade terms). This was a non-binding action, which also called for a weapons embargo on both Israel and Palestine.

Brilliant Good thing its non-binding.

 

[kennyj]

I think that Sharon is doing what should be done. Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorism. But in private conversations with Sharon, Bush has probably asked him to withdraw when Powell gets there.

Terrorists should get no leniency at all, and that's what the Palentinians are, including Arafat. If anyone has rebuffed Bush, it's the Arab nations. Bush asked that the leaders "stop terrorist activities, disrupt terrorist financing and stop inciting violence by glorifying terror in state-owned media or telling suicide bombers that they are martyrs." To date nothing has happened, in fact, the recent Islamic conference called for the Palestinians to continue their "legitimate resistence" against Israel.

It seems to me that by "legitimate resistence" it is meant the continues targeting of civilians that's happening every day. Look at what's been bombed: religious dinners, kids' birthday parties, supermarkets, pizza shops, restaurants, clothing stores, even women standing with their babies. The perpetrators of these deeds aren't martyrs, they are murderers. And Arafat says he wants to be a martyr too. Well, if he's promoting this conduct, maybe that's a good idea. Arafat is irrelevant anyway, either he can't stop the murderers or he doesn't want to stop them.

And now Powell is going there to ask Israel to stand back and not defend itself, just like in 1991, until the US has its way with Saddam. Sometimes it's harder being a friend of the US than an enemy.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by kennyj:
<strong>I think that Sharon is doing what should be done. Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorism. But in private conversations with Sharon, Bush has probably asked him to withdraw when Powell gets there.

Terrorists should get no leniency at all, and that's what the Palentinians are, including Arafat. If anyone has rebuffed Bush, it's the Arab nations. Bush asked that the leaders "stop terrorist activities, disrupt terrorist financing and stop inciting violence by glorifying terror in state-owned media or telling suicide bombers that they are martyrs." To date nothing has happened, in fact, the recent Islamic conference called for the Palestinians to continue their "legitimate resistence" against Israel.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is why its good for Powell to talk to Arab leaders. They have been failures thus far in many ways, and they too have to change their ways as well.

 

[Tareq]

I find interesting when American public tackles the middle east crisis,,perhaps the only country they know outside America is Israel,,,& hundereds of miles away they give liecence to Sharon to everything he wants to.....very clever indeed espeicailly when you know that there r Israeli ppl who condem Sharon & feel embaressed of his actions.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>I find interesting when American public tackles the middle east crisis,,perhaps the only country they know outside America is Israel,,,& hundereds of miles away they give liecence to Sharon to everything he wants to.....very clever indeed espeicailly when you know that there r Israeli ppl who condem Sharon & feel embaressed of his actions.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thats true, i live in a 'moderate' jewish area..here i know of a few jewish people who were embarrassed when Sharon sent in his tanks after Sept 11.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>I find interesting when American public tackles the middle east crisis,,perhaps the only country they know outside America is Israel,,,& hundereds of miles away they give liecence to Sharon to everything he wants to.....very clever indeed espeicailly when you know that there r Israeli ppl who condem Sharon & feel embaressed of his actions.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I find that US foreign policy supports Israel for the following reasons.

1. Israel is a democracy that generally espouses western values.

2. There is a large, politically active Jewish population in America, and American politicians find it easy to appeal to the Jewish vote by claiming that they support Israel.

3. Many American church going conservatives feel a certain kinship to Israel because of the 'Judeo-Christian Ethic', and the significance of the holy land in the Christian faith. (There are alot of religious nutters around here).

Israel gets billions US taxpayer dollars in aid every year, much of which goes to fund the Israeli military (F16s, Apaches, etc).

I would submit that the US doesn't have any interest in the Israeli-Palastinian conflict. There's no oil there, and any support of Israel on our part merely goes to distance our already shaky relationships with Arab governments. In the long run, our only interest in the middle east is cheap oil to fuel our massive economy, and the assurance that no unstable Arab countries aquire Nuclear weapons that could be used to destabalize the region. Hence it really doesn't make sense to expend all of this energy on the Israeli-Palastinian crisis, especially when the EU is in a much more credible diplomatic and geographical position to make a difference in the conflict.

 

[Tareq]

/Nice to have u here giggsy,,

 

[Tareq]

Reasonable post Raoul,,but Americans should realize that occupation is a form of terorrism,,,Israel is having those suicide boomers since 1995,,,the palestinians r having their land occupied since 1967 .
I told a palestinian friend early this year that those boomers r harming the palestinian issue.....he told me : we don't have tanks or F16 or Apache,,,,what shall we do ?

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>Reasonable post Raoul,,but Americans should realize that occupation is a form of terorrism,,,Israel is having those suicide boomers since 1995,,,the palestinians r having their land occupied since 1967 .
I told a palestinian friend early this year that those boomers r harming the palestinian issue.....he told me : we don't have tanks or F16 or Apache,,,,what shall we do ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tareq,

It's my understanding that the West Bank/Gaza/Golan Heights are considered disputed territories. The problem as I see it, is that Israel doesn't want to go back to the pre 67 map, and groups like Hamas will not settle for anything less than the total annihilation of Israel. The solution lies somewhere between those two positions.

 

[Tareq]

Raoul : We can't leave to extremists o both sides, to determine the future of the whole middle east, i belive that peace will come & blossom when the israeli occupation ends & UN resoluations r applied...the Us always talks about International legitimacy & human rights & the niccessity of applying Un resoluations on Iraq
but there never any word on Israel....there r so so so many double standereds here & that undermines yr credability.