Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully

Nucks

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To be honest the US has not annexed a chunk of land from a neighboring state recently.
No, but it unilaterally allowed Kosovo to make the same decision that Crimea made. Either regions are allowed to autonomously plot their course, or they are not. It's ok for Kosovo to independently vote for independence, but it isn't for Crimea to vote to rejoin Russia? Until the US backed Kosovo, the answer to that would have been no. Small regions within countries don't get to make that decision without the consent of their country as a whole. After Kosovo, well, the US changed the rules, and it did so with our usual lack of foresight on long term implications.

A direct result of this is, we ended up with a separatist movement in Ukraine, Novorossiya with Donestsk and Luhansk, and a third that voted to switch teams, Crimea. Absolutely Russia has taken advantage of this, however, we can't have one set of rules for us, and one set of rules for everyone else. At the very least, people should be cognizant of how shady the entire coup in Ukraine was, and shouldn't be shocked that a country that is as divided between pro-west and pro-russia would react in the way that it did.
 

Raoul

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No, but it unilaterally allowed Kosovo to make the same decision that Crimea made. Either regions are allowed to autonomously plot their course, or they are not. It's ok for Kosovo to independently vote for independence, but it isn't for Crimea to vote to rejoin Russia? Until the US backed Kosovo, the answer to that would have been no. Small regions within countries don't get to make that decision without the consent of their country as a whole. After Kosovo, well, the US changed the rules, and it did so with our usual lack of foresight on long term implications.

A direct result of this is, we ended up with a separatist movement in Ukraine, Novorossiya with Donestsk and Luhansk, and a third that voted to switch teams, Crimea. Absolutely Russia has taken advantage of this, however, we can't have one set of rules for us, and one set of rules for everyone else. At the very least, people should be cognizant of how shady the entire coup in Ukraine was, and shouldn't be shocked that a country that is as divided between pro-west and pro-russia would react in the way that it did.
Nobody is being allowed to "autonomously plot their course" in the Russian sphere.
 

Nucks

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Not globally but a regional power. The tier above is occupied only by two countries.
If we're talking about Israel, Isreal is nowhere near being a 2nd rate power realistically.

We've got to talk about actual military potential, versus, real military potential. Israel is in basically a position of constant war footing. It has maximized its potential, Israel can't get much more ready for war. So, Israel ready to throw down might be in that second tier of military powers currently, but, should the need for militarization ever arise in the rest of the world, Israel with its population of what, 8.5 million, would drop to complete non relevance in any sort of conventional military engagement. The only thing that would matter is its nuclear capability. Which certainly gives it a seat at the nuclear table.
 

Nucks

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Nobody is being allowed to "autonomously plot their course" in the Russian sphere.
The same can be said about the US and China. What is your point? All three countries will allow you do do what you want, so long as it aligns with their foreign policy goals, or doesn't impact them. If it has a negative impact, or is seen to threaten national security, they don't.

So again, what is your point?
 

Raoul

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The same can be said about the US and China. What is your point? All three countries will allow you do do what you want, so long as it aligns with their foreign policy goals, or doesn't impact them. If it has a negative impact, or is seen to threaten national security, they don't.

So again, what is your point?
The Russians don't allow former Soviet states and (as well as to a degree) former eastern bloc states to autonomously control their futures. They have active measures campaigns in most of those states which are similar to old school Soviet campaigns to undermine each government from within in order to destabilize it to prevent the spread of democracy. The US and China attempt to influence states through diplomacy and at times economic pressure. The two situations are therefore not remotely comparable.
 

2cents

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It's ok for Kosovo to independently vote for independence, but it isn't for Crimea to vote to rejoin Russia? Until the US backed Kosovo, the answer to that would have been no. Small regions within countries don't get to make that decision without the consent of their country as a whole
I normally lean in your favor when it comes to Russia, but in this case there is the fact of Russian backing for and recognition of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transnistria, all preceding Kosovo.
 

Nucks

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The Russians don't allow former Soviet states and (as well as to a degree) former eastern bloc states to autonomously control their futures. They have active measures campaigns in most of those states which are similar to old school Soviet campaigns to undermine each government from within in order to destabilize it to prevent the spread of democracy. The US and China attempt to influence states through diplomacy and at times economic pressure. The two situations are therefore not remotely comparable.
Mmmhmmm, and coups, and assassination, and funding insurgency, and invasion when all else fails.
 

Raoul

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Mmmhmmm, and coups, and assassination, and funding insurgency, and invasion when all else fails.
Can't argue with that. Still not on par with the Russians who literally steal the land of neighboring countries and deny it as its happening.
 

Nucks

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I normally lean in your favor when it comes to Russia, but in this case there is the fact of Russian backing for and recognition of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transnistria, all preceding Kosovo.
Situation is slightly different IMO. Since these all resulted as a dissolution of the Soviet Union, with these regions being pro-Russia and wishing to remain aligned with what had been hitherto, their for lack of a better word, overlord. So it ticks that box of consent from the country. There isn't really an analog between Kosovo and any of those.
 

The Firestarter

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No, but it unilaterally allowed Kosovo to make the same decision that Crimea made. Either regions are allowed to autonomously plot their course, or they are not. It's ok for Kosovo to independently vote for independence, but it isn't for Crimea to vote to rejoin Russia? Until the US backed Kosovo, the answer to that would have been no. Small regions within countries don't get to make that decision without the consent of their country as a whole. After Kosovo, well, the US changed the rules, and it did so with our usual lack of foresight on long term implications.

A direct result of this is, we ended up with a separatist movement in Ukraine, Novorossiya with Donestsk and Luhansk, and a third that voted to switch teams, Crimea. Absolutely Russia has taken advantage of this, however, we can't have one set of rules for us, and one set of rules for everyone else. At the very least, people should be cognizant of how shady the entire coup in Ukraine was, and shouldn't be shocked that a country that is as divided between pro-west and pro-russia would react in the way that it did.
I am somewhat reluctant to enter into a debate about Kosovo since it has been already done to death on the caf, and there is a separate thread for the Balkan discussion.

That being said, I do not think it was the best foreign policy move. Not the intervention, but the allowance for the establishment of a new state. But I think the cases are quite different - the Russian annexation was a purely imperialistic move.
 

The Firestarter

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If we're talking about Israel, Isreal is nowhere near being a 2nd rate power realistically.

We've got to talk about actual military potential, versus, real military potential. Israel is in basically a position of constant war footing. It has maximized its potential, Israel can't get much more ready for war. So, Israel ready to throw down might be in that second tier of military powers currently, but, should the need for militarization ever arise in the rest of the world, Israel with its population of what, 8.5 million, would drop to complete non relevance in any sort of conventional military engagement. The only thing that would matter is its nuclear capability. Which certainly gives it a seat at the nuclear table.
Yes, the nuclear capability is what I had in mind and I also mentioned several pages ago.
 

Nucks

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Can't argue with that. Still not on par with the Russians who literally steal the land of neighboring countries and deny it as its happening.
I suppose that depends on if you think the Crimeans had the right to succeed from Ukraine, and if you think their vote would have resulted in the same outcome without any shenanigans.
 

Nucks

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Yes, the nuclear capability is what I had in mind and I also mentioned several pages ago.
Gotcha, I jumped in at what I thought the last point I had read up to :) Yes, nuclear capability tends to trump conventional when nuclear parity is achieved.
 

2cents

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Situation is slightly different IMO. Since these all resulted as a dissolution of the Soviet Union, with these regions being pro-Russia and wishing to remain aligned with what had been hitherto, their for lack of a better word, overlord. So it ticks that box of consent from the country. There isn't really an analog between Kosovo and any of those.
If Kosovo wanted to break from Serbia and supported US action to achieve that, I'm not sure how that is not consent along the same lines as the above examples.
 

Raoul

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I suppose that depends on if you think the Crimeans had the right to succeed from Ukraine, and if you think their vote would have resulted in the same outcome without any shenanigans.
The vote was illegitimate. If they wanted to secede they could have pushed the issue from within in the decade leading up to Putin's invasion.
 

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oneniltothearsenal

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Can't argue with that. Still not on par with the Russians who literally steal the land of neighboring countries and deny it as its happening.
Tibet?
 

2cents

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2cents

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Significant escalation last night following reports of Israeli strikes as far as Iraq in the last few weeks. Apparently Hezbollah members were targeted:




Meanwhile Hezbollah are blaming this strange incident in Beirut on Israel:




Israeli media is suggesting the drones may in fact be Iranian.

Nasrallah will speak later today.
 

2cents

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Nasrallah is not happy. Long, angry speech, but this seems to be the main point:

 

berbatrick

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Do you want to hear a good joke?
Sovereignity

An Israeli airstrike on an Iranian weapons depot in Iraq, confirmed by U.S. officials, is threatening to destabilize security in the volatile country that has struggled to remain neutral in the conflict between Washington and Tehran.

It would be the first known Israeli airstrike in Iraq since 1981, when Israeli warplanes destroyed a nuclear reactor being built by Saddam Hussein, and significantly expands Israel’s campaign against Iranian military involvement in the region.
https://apnews.com/06ef6f4d525e408d953f6f31497283aa
 

HarlanEiffler

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I mean, Israel and Iraq ARE at war, since Iraq declared it in 1948, and Iraq actually denies Israel's sovereignty by not recognizing it as a country, so I'm not sure the pun works...
 

berbatrick

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I'm sure you'd have a similar reaction to the DPRK shelling Seoul.
 

Synco

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I'm sure you'd have a similar reaction to the DPRK shelling Seoul.
That's a polemical answer, but I'd like to hear your honest opinion about it. I've made a similar argument to @HarlanEiffler's in the Afghanistan thread: basically against the use of the jargon of international law as a justification for power politics that run on a different logic. But if you do choose to argue inside that framework, Harlan's response can't be just brushed off.

To get to the root of the matter: What do you think should Israel's reaction be to the project of the buildup of Iranian military capacities in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq? Is any justified red line imaginable, and if so: what would that be? Or is the only justifiable option to remain passive and therefore accept a largely unhindered buildup? What is the endgame then, what situation do you see such a scenario lead to?

(To clarify what I'm on about: It can of course always be argued that this or that particular action goes too far, is needless, reckless, etc., but that's usually not the case - when I see people making standpoints similar to yours, there's usually no legitimacy granted to any kind of armed response.)
 

HarlanEiffler

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I'm sure you'd have a similar reaction to the DPRK shelling Seoul.
Apples and orange-shaped objects, huh? DPRK and South Korea have an armistice agreement in place since 1953, they recently signed another agreement in 2018. So of course my reaction to that particular event would be different.

Furthermore, I cannot find the news article where Israel "shelled Baghdad". They attacked Iranian operations on Iraqi territory. A country that does not recognize Israel as a state, does not have diplomatic relations with Israel and is at war with it since 1948 without an armistice.

By the way, why is your joke targetting the Israeli attack on the Iranian operatives, but not the presence of said operatives on Iraqi soil? Is that not also a violation of sovereignty?
 

berbatrick

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Apples and orange-shaped objects, huh? DPRK and South Korea have an armistice agreement in place since 1953, they recently signed another agreement in 2018. So of course my reaction to that particular event would be different.

Furthermore, I cannot find the news article where Israel "shelled Baghdad". They attacked Iranian operations on Iraqi territory. A country that does not recognize Israel as a state, does not have diplomatic relations with Israel and is at war with it since 1948 without an armistice.

By the way, why is your joke targetting the Israeli attack on the Iranian operatives, but not the presence of said operatives on Iraqi soil? Is that not also a violation of sovereignty?
Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi said "we do respect this Iranian commander and our collaboration with him is not a secret", adding that Iran was quick in sending arms to Iraq and helping Baghdad when ISIS captured the country's Sunni provinces.

Iraqi leader Hadi al-Amiri said that "If it were not for the cooperation of the Islamic republic of Iran and General Suleimani, we would not today have a government headed by Haider al-Abadi in Baghdad".[76]During the Second Battle of Tikrit, Hadi al-Amiri said US has failed to live up to its promises to help Iraq fight ISIL, unlike the "unconditional" assistance being given by Iran.[77]

On December 31, 2014, Defence Ministers of Iran and Iraq signed a military pact to combat ISIS.[78]
 

HarlanEiffler

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So your argument is that because Iran helped Iraq in the fight against ISIS and was welcomed to do so in 2014 and 2015 there can be no breach of Iraqi sovereignty in 2019?
 

2mufc0

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So your argument is that because Iran helped Iraq in the fight against ISIS and was welcomed to do so in 2014 and 2015 there can be no breach of Iraqi sovereignty in 2019?
I think his post was in response to this :

but not the presence of said operatives on Iraqi soil? Is that not also a violation of sovereignty?
 

Raoul

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Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi said "we do respect this Iranian commander and our collaboration with him is not a secret", adding that Iran was quick in sending arms to Iraq and helping Baghdad when ISIS captured the country's Sunni provinces.

Iraqi leader Hadi al-Amiri said that "If it were not for the cooperation of the Islamic republic of Iran and General Suleimani, we would not today have a government headed by Haider al-Abadi in Baghdad".[76]During the Second Battle of Tikrit, Hadi al-Amiri said US has failed to live up to its promises to help Iraq fight ISIL, unlike the "unconditional" assistance being given by Iran.[77]

On December 31, 2014, Defence Ministers of Iran and Iraq signed a military pact to combat ISIS.[78]
Quoting a notoriously pro-Iranian Badrist stooge like Al-Amiri, who has for decades been in bed with the velayat-alfikh crowd isn’t particularly convincing here.
 

HarlanEiffler

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I think his post was in response to this :
I know, but I wonder if he means that the quote from 2014, and the permission for Iranian support on Iraqi soil in a very specific context (fight against ISIS) is sufficiently explaining Iranian presence in Iraq in 2019 for it not to be at least a suspected breach of sovereignty. When, on the other hand, a military strike against a military target in a context where the site of the strike is located in a country that is at war with the attacker is considered a breach of sovereignty.
 

2mufc0

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I know, but I wonder if he means that the quote from 2014, and the permission for Iranian support on Iraqi soil in a very specific context (fight against ISIS) is sufficiently explaining Iranian presence in Iraq in 2019 for it not to be at least a suspected breach of sovereignty. When, on the other hand, a military strike against a military target in a context where the site of the strike is located in a country that is at war with the attacker is considered a breach of sovereignty.
Agree, I haven't been keeping up with things around there and would be interesting to hear in what capacity they are operating in Iraq after the fall of ISIS.

I also don't see why this drone attack is a surprise, Israel has carried out strikes in the region many times before. With regards to Iran, given the hostility from the US and its allies in the region recently I don't blame them for trying to expand their presence in the region.
 
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HarlanEiffler

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Agree, I haven't been keeping up with things around there and would be interesting to hear in what capacity they are operating in Iraq after the fall of ISIS.

I also don't see why this drone attack is a surprise, Israel has been carried out strikes in the region many times before. With regards to Iran, given the hostility from the US and its allies in the region recently I don't blame them for trying to expand their presence in the region.
At the end of the day it's, on the one hand, a struggle for hegemony in the region between the Saudi Arabia (with US backing) and Iran. Iran is not simply the victim of hostility, and neither is it the sole instigator. All parties have their fair share of blame in the escalating proxy conflicts in the region.
Israel is on the one hand an ally of the US in the greater struggle for power, but first and foremost it tries to protect itself and sees Iranian expansion of course as a direct threat to its most basic national security. Given the history of Iranian involvement in asymmetrical conflicts against Israel (Hezbollah and Hamas, among others), there is indeed nothing surprising in a more vigilant and active IDF/IAF when it comes to Iranian operations.
 

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Three thoughts on all of this:

1. I wouldn't push the Iraq/1948/state of war angle too much. It's a good argument to show up how selectively the jargon of international law is applied, but my main point would be how detached that jargon is from the reality on the ground. I think the state-of-war issue was more relevant in times of the Ba'athist state. Post-Saddam and the 2003 war, Iraq obviously had bucketloads of other worries. As far as I can see, it is now Iran, not the Iraqi government, that brings this issue back to the table of Iraqi politics.

2. I think the term "national sovereignty" with all its ideological implications is an ill-suited one for the situations of countries long plagued by factionalist disunity, powerful foreign influence, armed conflicts and social disintegration. The factions favouring unity and sovereignty are merely some of many power groups struggling to push their interests. As far as I can see, this is the classic situation upon which the current Iran/Israel conflict plays out: Iran using these situations of unrest to establish a military presence (through proxies and the IRGC), Israel intervening when that attempt goes beyond a certain point.

3. Of course the presence of forces loyal to Tehran curbs whatever national sovereignty these countries have (or in more materialistic terms: control of the central government). I'd say this is even true in Syria, where Assad is in a state of dependency on Iran (and Russia). Much more so in Lebanon, where the influence of Syria and Iran has long been a major dividing line in internal politics. And in Iraq, where the growth of Iranian influence has certainly not been welcomed by everyone, and afaik that also includes parts of the Shia leadership.

As usual: this is just my current understanding, correct me where I'm wrong.
 
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2mufc0

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At the end of the day it's, on the one hand, a struggle for hegemony in the region between the Saudi Arabia (with US backing) and Iran. Iran is not simply the victim of hostility, and neither is it the sole instigator. All parties have their fair share of blame in the escalating proxy conflicts in the region.
Israel is on the one hand an ally of the US in the greater struggle for power, but first and foremost it tries to protect itself and sees Iranian expansion of course as a direct threat to its most basic national security. Given the history of Iranian involvement in asymmetrical conflicts against Israel (Hezbollah and Hamas, among others), there is indeed nothing surprising in a more vigilant and active IDF/IAF when it comes to Iranian operations.
Oh don't get me wrong I'm not saying Iran is innocent in all of this, I was just putting forward how they would see things and try to establish some reasoning behind their actions.

The bit in bold is a fair assessment overall.
 

HarlanEiffler

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Three thoughts on all of this:

1. I wouldn't push the Iraq/1948/state of war angle too much. It's a good argument to show up how selectively the jargon of international law is applied, but my main point would be how detached that jargon is from the reality on the ground. I think the state-of-war issue was more relevant in times of the Ba'athist state. Post-Saddam and the 2003 war, Iraq obviously had bucketloads of other worries. As far as I can see, it is now Iran, not the Iraqi government, that brings this issue back to the table of Iraqi politics.

2. I think the term "national souvereignity" with all its ideological implications is an ill-suited one for the situations of countries long plagued by factionalist disunity, powerful foreign influence, armed conflicts and social disintegration. The factions favouring unity and souvereignity are merely some of many power groups struggling to push their interests. As far as I can see, this is the classic situation upon which the current Iran/Israel conflict plays out: Iran using these situations of unrest to establish a military presence (through proxies and the IRGC), Israel intervening when that attempt goes beyond a certain point.

3. Of course the presence of forces loyal to Tehran curbs whatever national souvereignity these countries have (or in more materialistic terms: control of the central government). I'd say this is even true in Syria, where Assad is in a state of dependency on Iran (and Russia). Much more so in Lebanon, where the influence of Syria and Iran has always been a major dividing line in internal politics. And in Iraq, where the growth of Iranian influence has certainly not been welcomed by everyone, and afaik that also includes parts of the Shia leadership.

As usual: this is just my current understanding, correct me where I'm wrong.
No corrections, completely agree on the first point, I might have overdone it with drilling the point home that it doesn't make much sense to talk about sovereignty in this case.
 

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This is a decent outline of how Israelis view the current situation:

The Iran-Israel War Is Here
More than a decade of civil strife has opened up the region for the escalating state-to-state conflict.

Israel and Iran are at war. Israeli strikes this week in southern Syria, western Iraq and eastern Lebanon—and possibly even Beirut—confirm it.

This war is a very 21st-century affair. For now it involves only small circles among the Israeli and Iranian populations. Parts of the air force, intelligence services and probably special forces are active on the Israeli side. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, its expeditionary Quds Force and proxy politico-military organizations in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon are engaged on behalf of Iran.

The war marks a hinge point in Middle Eastern geopolitics. For the past decade and a half, the region has been engaged mainly with internal strife: civil wars, insurgencies and mass protests. These are now largely spent, leaving a broken landscape along the northern route from Iran to Israel.

The three “states” in between—Iraq, Syria and Lebanon—are fragmented, partly collapsed and thoroughly penetrated by neighboring powers. Their official state structures have lost the attribute that alone, according to German sociologist Max Weber, guarantees sovereignty: “monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force.” These nations’ territory has become the theater of the Iran-Israel war.

The regime in Tehran favors the destruction of the Jewish state, but this is a longstanding aim, dating to the 1979 Islamic Revolution and before it, in the minds of the revolutionaries. What’s brought it to the fore is that Iran has emerged in the past half decade as the prime beneficiary of the collapse of the Iraqi, Syrian and Lebanese states. This has substantially increased its capacity to menace Israel, which has noticed and responded.

Iran’s Revolutionary Guard has no peer in the Middle East—and perhaps beyond—in the practice of irregular warfare. Its proxies today dominate Lebanon (Hezbollah), constitute the single strongest politico-military force in Iraq (Popular Mobilization Units, or PMU), and maintain an independent, powerful military infrastructure in Syria, in partial cooperation with the Assad regime and Russia. This nexus, against which Israel is currently engaged, brings Iran de facto control over much of the land from the Iraq-Iran border to the Mediterranean and to the Syrian and Lebanese borders with Israel.

Iran treats this entire area as a single operational space, moving its assets around at will without excessive concern for the notional sovereignty of the governments in Baghdad, Beirut and Damascus. Lebanese Hezbollah trains PMU fighters in Iraq. Iraqi Shiite militias are deployed at crucial and sensitive points on the Iraqi-Syrian border, such as al-Qa’im and Mayadeen. Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah personnel operate in southwest Syria, close to the Golan Heights.

Israeli attacks in recent days suggest that Israel, too, has begun to act according to these definitions and in response to them. If Iran will not restrict its actions to Syria, neither will Israel.

There is a crucial difference between the Israeli and Iranian positions in this conflict. Iran’s involvement in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon is deep, long-term and proactive. Tehran seeks the transformation of these areas into Iranian satrapies, and it has made considerable advances toward its goal. Israel’s involvement is entirely reactive, pushing back against Iranian domination and destroying the missile caches that bring it within Iran’s range. Israel has no interest in the internal political arrangements of Lebanon, Syria or Iraq, except insofar as these constitute a danger to Israel itself.

This imbalance defines the conflict. Iran creates political organizations, penetrates state structures, and seeks to make itself an unchallengeable presence in all three countries. Israel has been wary of entering the mire of factional politics in neighboring countries since its failed intervention in Lebanon leading up to the 1982 war. Jerusalem instead uses its superior intelligence and conventional military capabilities to neutralize the military and paramilitary fruits of the Iranian project whenever they appear to be forming into a concrete threat.

Israel is largely alone in this fight. The U.S. is certainly aware of Israel’s actions against Iran and may tacitly support them. Yet the Trump administration shows no signs of wishing to play an active part in the military challenge to Iranian infrastructure-building across the Middle East. This White House favors ramping up economic pressure on Tehran, but both its occupant and his voter base are wary in the extreme of new military commitments in the Middle East.

Saudi Arabia is targeted by the Ansar Allah, or Houthi, movement, another Iranian proxy closely assisted by the Revolutionary Guard. The Saudis’ interests are partly aligned with Israel’s, but Saudi Arabia is a fragile country, requiring the protection of its allies rather than constituting an asset for them.

So it is war between Israel and Iran, prosecuted over the ruins of Iraq, Lebanon and Syria. But it won’t necessarily stay that way. A single kinetic and successful Iranian response to Israel’s airstrikes could rapidly precipitate an escalation to a much broader contest. State-to-state conflict has returned to the Middle East.