Jadon Sancho | Howard Nurse: Dortmund's resolve to be tested finally.

bsCallout

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Does this saga outline our scouting weaknesses? Surely we should know of alternatives at a fraction of the price.
 

SwedishFish

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Hopefully Spurs complete the deal for Bale and our options will be depleted.

Sancho remains number one target and Perisic for a year wouldn't be the worst option if it all falls apart imo.
 

DWelbz19

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I'm a Sancho optimist but I have to admit, reading the below has drained all of the optimism out of me, if true... :(

https://medium.com/football-bureau-of-investigation/jadon-sancho-the-circus-strategy-2904b788999e
If this is the case, RE: “Punchline 4” — why haven’t we been working even harder to shift players? This club confuses me sometimes.

I get it, you need buyers to actually sell, but there’s enough at the club to let go? Smalling was actually wanted by a club he did well on loan at, and we somehow cocked that up. Diogo Dalot is very young and still has promise, surely we had offers for him? If the plan was to get Dean Henderson back in, why wasn’t Romero shopped around earlier? As it stands we have 3 first team goalkeepers with a weekly wage of about 600k between the 3.

I think we’re now contingent on other clubs panic buying our deadwood that we have available as we verge nearer to deadline. Which is great, isn’t it?
 

POF

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And who told you that is United's negotiating tactic? You are reading things off Twitter and treating them as facts? It is only painful to watch if you are deluded enough to believe those stories. Ole knows what he wants the Club have told him what he can get and the rest is noise. As it stands, United are not buying Sancho because they can't afford him. It's hardly the crime of the century. The fact that Sancho is not pushing for a move tells you that United have not seriously shown Dortmund that they want Sancho at all costs.Reality is there is no money. No football club apart from Chelsea are spending record amounts which should be a clear sign to everyone that there is no money in football at the moment. Manchester United are not immune to that.
Nobody told me. That's why I said that it seems to be their strategy. Of course it's speculation but that they've not gone for anyone else when a number of potential candidates have been available seems to back that up.

But the absolute irony of your initial beligerent statement and then this cracker:
"Ole knows what he wants the Club have told him what he can get and the rest is noise. As it stands, United are not buying Sancho because they can't afford him".

Are you now reading things off Twitter and treating them as facts? Did someone tell you that?

The pandemic has had far less of an impact than I was expecting. Arsenal, Villa, Chelsea, Everton, Leeds, City, Spurs and Wolves have spent serious money. Even Palace, Leicester, Sheffield United, Southampton, West Brom and West Ham have spent around the £20m mark.

There have also been some substantial transfers across Europe. There is still plenty of money in the market and a club like United with its commercial revenues will have access to funds. It's extremely naive to think they don't.

Can United afford €120m on Sancho? Who knows? It's a huge outlay on a player in this market. If they knew they couldn't, could they have afforded Willian on a free?

If United can get Sancho for a reduced price by pushing it right to the deadline, then great. But, if they don't there's no time for a back up plan. After writing off the first half of last season due to a negligent lack of depth, it's an extremely risky strategy this summer.
 

Squeaky Bumtime

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I’ve been trying to explain this all Summer. But we also have so many financially literate fans who insist we can ‘just pay the money’ because ‘we are Manchester United’ and any fan who explains the reality of our COVID-19 finances is a ‘Glazer Stoodge’.

It’s possible to hate the Glazress and understand the constraints of our balance sheet at the same time!
It certainly isnt that bad that it seems we're barely over water?
 

do.ob

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You two points combined push towards the only option for clubs is to borrow money. Which is probably what will happen, but if I were the board and the options were sell a player now, in uncertain times for 100m or have to go to banks to negotiate loans in order to pay wages, I know which I would pick.

Businesses can't just 'accept making losses' for an uncertain duration of time.
They have already said that they opened up credit lines. I think the latest report was that they secured over €100m if need be. And sure, you don't just take losses indefinitely, but it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to borrow their way through this season on the hopes of a vaccine and then reevaluate their stance next season, before they just flat out burn squad value just to avoid debt at all cost, when they are one of the clubs who can definitely afford to have some.
 

romufc

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I don't understand how fans think we will get Sancho another time.

The one time we are the only club for him, we feck it up, imagine when there is someone else interested too? We will be nowhere near that transfer, the efficiency of other teams is way too good for us.

Another club will snap Sancho up before even Ed can monitor him.
 

elnorte

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What will be considered the worse screw-up?

Kenyon with Ronaldhino

Or

Woodward with Sancho
 

Giggsy13

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If that article is true we're not far away from bankruptcy.
It might take bankruptcy for the leaches running our club to finally leave. It would be painful to watch but our club name carries huge weight globally so there would be plenty of billionaires interested in saving our club.
 

Beachryan

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They have already said that they opened up credit lines. I think the latest report was that they secured over €100m if need be. And sure, you don't just take losses indefinitely, but it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to borrow their way through this season on the hopes of a vaccine and then reevaluate their stance next season, before they just flat out burn squad value just to avoid debt at all cost, when they are one of the clubs who can definitely afford to have some.
Yeah, fair enough. That'll be the calculation: (Sancho value next year - Sancho value by United) - (interest on required loans)

I'm just not convinced we know enough about the world to make an optimistic call!
 

Squeaky Bumtime

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It might take bankruptcy for the leaches running our club to finally leave. It would be painful to watch but our club name carries huge weight globally so there would be plenty of billionaires interested in saving our club.
Well that surely wont happen.
 

sammsky1

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It certainly isnt that bad that it seems we're barely over water?
As the article points out, we have the highest non sugar daddy operating costs and the highest COVID-19 losses. And then a minimum level of profits that we have to hit.

we are not close to going under but we can’t spend £100m in capital without going close to the bone. Not surprising given the circumstances. All will become crystal clear when the financials are declared next week.
 

Giggsy13

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What will be considered the worse screw-up?

Kenyon with Ronaldhino

Or

Woodward with Sancho
Kenyon because he already had one foot out the door and his mind on the Chelsea job. I still think he purposely botched that move when you consider how desperate Chelsea were to purchase Ronaldinho when Kenyon was in charge.

Woodward is incompetent but I think he genuinely wants to back Ole and bring in Sancho but the Covid excuse is a real one.
 

buchansleftleg

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You are aware that's its autumn soon and covid number could be way worse? I'm not saying it as an excuse for Ed but dont expect this to get better and be over soon.
absolutely - The UK, more specifically England is going to get hammered by the second wave far more than European nations - we will be in a bigger, longer second wave so should have secured sancho as an asset rather than just burnt through existing capital. With bigger assets and larger merchandising revenue we could have leveraged larger amounts of capital to tide us over for longer.
 

romufc

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I’ve been trying to explain this all Summer. But we also have so many financially literate fans who insist we can ‘just pay the money’ because ‘we are Manchester United’ and any fan who explains the reality of our COVID-19 finances is a ‘Glazer Stoodge’.

It’s possible to hate the Glazress and understand the constraints of our balance sheet at the same time!
Regardless of if we can afford him or not, the issue is not the finances.

The issue is, If you cannot afford someone, you move on. If I have £200k for a house and look at a house that is worth £600k, I am not going to get it am I? In the time where I just stare at this property, I am missing out on houses within the price range. If you take your friends, family all at this property, show them the facilities and act if you can afford it then say sorry cant afford it, who looks like foolish?

This is exactly what United are doing... Sancho is our priority, well yeah he would be everybody's priority if they could afford him, but the fact that other clubs are clever enough to realise.. Oh we cannot afford this player lets target one who can.
 

Lemansky

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As the article points out, we have the highest non sugar daddy operating costs and the highest COVID-19 losses. And then a minimum level of profits that we have to hit.

we are not close to going under but we can’t spend £100m in capital without going close to the bone. Not surprising given the circumstances.
It’s not rocket science is it? Everyone can see that the stadium’s is empty. No spectators, no ticket money...

Of course the market is shaky when 2/3 of the highest revenue streams are very uncertain in the year/years to come.
 

Clermontois

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Ever wondered why EPL teams assemble very expensive squads that hardly match up to Bayern , Madrid or Barcelona? Well this is it. You pay 120million for the 3rd best player of a team that doesn’t even threaten to win the champions league.

I’m willing to bet that Mason Greenwood in BVB will score 20goals a season and probably get some odd 15 assists. Is he worth 100million? Not yet.

it was the same with Pogba. Good midfielder but not the best in Juventus at that time. Vidal and Pirlo were better.


Next time if you wonder why we spend 400 million and still lose to Juventus or BVB then there is your answer.

People can talk all they want about the market changing but why does it not change for other leagues in Europe? Only EPL teams and Barcelona fall victim
So you many of these points don't add up.

Greenwood would only score 20 goals? Who is to say he won't score more as the talent he has would make him the best in that league instantly.

Paul was the best midfielder at Juventus soon after joining, it was him that made Marchisio leave the first 11 and Marchisio was also a better player than Vidal so not sure where you got that myth from.

Lastly there is nothing special about Bayern except for there fitness levels. They were outplayed by PSG in that first half until they were gassed nothing to do with buying a third best players lad.
 

Ronaldo's Love Child

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Does this saga outline our scouting weaknesses? Surely we should know of alternatives at a fraction of the price.

Buddy-I am struggling to understand how our scouting works at all!

A sensible approach would be to identify a primary target for one position and then add maybe a second and third target if the 1st one is unattainable. Please someone tell me what our second and third targets are right now for RW as it so far appears as if we've gone all or nothing for Sancho.
 

Flying high

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It’s not rocket science is it? Everyone can see that the stadium’s is empty. No spectators, no ticket money...

Of course the market is shaky when 2/3 of the highest revenue streams are very uncertain in the year/years to come.
So maybe this year our leeches decide not to drain millions from the club?
 

Oldyella

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It’s not rocket science is it? Everyone can see that the stadium’s is empty. No spectators, no ticket money...

Of course the market is shaky when 2/3 of the highest revenue streams are very uncertain in the year/years to come.
As soon as we were quoted the same price as pre covid we should have prepared to walk away and explore other signings.
 

Ronaldo's Love Child

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For one other clubs aren't spending big either and secondly the article is making the point that unlike say Dortmund United can't just say they'll take the losses, because they signed obligations to constantly post profits.
However even if all this is true everyone is aware of the current pandemic and United wouldn't be the first to get cut some slack from their creditors.
Maybe not "spending big" but taking a look at the Premiership alone many clubs are spending approximately what we have already spent. So far we on a par with clubs like Newcastle and Everton. I get that the finances have to be cut back but that should be proportionate to the wealth and resources of a club
 

do.ob

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Maybe not "spending big" but taking a look at the Premiership alone many clubs are spending approximately what we have already spent. So far we on a par with clubs like Newcastle and Everton. I get that the finances have to be cut back but that should be proportionate to the wealth and resources of a club
Some people have suggested that Bruno's fee was taken out of the summer budget and further transfers haven't been ruled out yet either, just maybe not over 100m.
 

Adisa

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What kind of deal do you think we can afford? What is Woodward’s best bid?
I certainly think we can't afford to commit to what we are being asked currently.
From my understanding of what is in the papers, Dortmund want the €120m guaranteed. And I am not sure we or any club can pay that in this climate.
To be honest, I am surprised we are in the market for this kind of player this summer. I never expected us to be.
On your second question, I wouldn't know. Know one really knows the club's current position so it is probably all conjecture. We should have a clearer picture in a few weeks.
Where I have had question marks is the reported notion that we believe Dortmund should reduce their price cause of Covid and we have banned our entire strategy on that belief. I think it's a foolish expectation. Dortmund are unwilling sellers. Why would they offer a Covid discount on a player that they say they don't want to sell and has 3 years left on his deal?
 

diarm

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Does this saga outline our scouting weaknesses? Surely we should know of alternatives at a fraction of the price.
United don't get anyone for a fraction of the price. Martial would've cost Dortmund 10-15mil but he costs us 4 times that.

We either go for academy kids early (which we are doing), or we pay big money.
 

Ikon

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Very interesting read. Puts many things that were hard to understand in this transfer window into context, I believe. Will be interesting to see what United will do once they've sorted the situation out.
That only makes the context of offering Mata, Jones & Lingard renewed and more lucrative contracts, even more inexplicable.
It seems imperative to have axed the deadwood and reduced the wage bill, but to date only Sanchez has gone.
We've had offers for Dalot, we've had offers for Smalling, and Romero should be easy to shift, so why aren't we pushing deals along???
 

RUCK4444

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What will be considered the worse screw-up?

Kenyon with Ronaldhino

Or

Woodward with Sancho
The former is the better player, absolutely no doubt about that.

The latter would probably prove to be the more important signing for us in terms of longevity and importance to the team though. (In the sense that Ronaldinho never seemed the type that would settle in the UK.)
 

FreddieTheReddie

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Unless Sancho’s side puts some pressure on Dortmund there’s zero chance of this happening at this point. May as well close this thread now.
On the contrary, I think he wouldn’t have told them he would be happy to move if there was no chance. To me it means BVB would sell him is we pay up.
 

Zehner

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That only makes the context of offering Mata, Jones & Lingard renewed and more lucrative contracts, even more inexplicable.
It seems imperative to have axed the deadwood and reduced the wage bill, but to date only Sanchez has gone.
We've had offers for Dalot, we've had offers for Smalling, and Romero should be easy to shift, so why aren't we pushing deals along???
Haven't been following the reports on those players but if that's true and the article is reliable (seems legit to me), then I have no idea. Thought that those players may be on wages so huge that no club on their current level would be able to pay that. I even opened a thread about this problem in the football forum a few weeks ago. I think salary-wise top clubs have distanced themselves so much from the rest of the bunch that regressing top players earn so much that they become almost impossible to sign for second and third tier clubs, which leads to them letting their contract run out instead of signing for clubs that could offer them more game time. Besides you, Barcelona, Madrid and Arsenal seem to be in similar situations, albeit not to the same extent.
 

Untied

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But the article didn't name the transfer fee as the problem. Of course you could activate the fee but the 65m pound profit would be in danger because Sancho would increase your wage bill so drastically that you couldn't afford it without getting other players off the books. And the salaries can't be activated after IFRS if I'm not mistaken.

Also, what about agent fees? Are they considered part of the transfer fee, e.g. could you activate Sancho for 120m pound if you paid Dortmund 108m and the intermediary another 12m?

This could explaine the differing reports regarding United having reached an agreement on personal terms.
Right, but the wages Sancho would be on aren't exorbitantly high. Just looking it up the EBITDA in the 2019 SEC filing was £180m – that's a lot of leeway over the £65m, and £10m on Sancho's wages, when we've lost Sanchez's ~£15m and we know we have Lingard, Rojo and Mata in the last year of their contracts doesn't seem like a viable financial explanation for why it isn't possible.

As I said, I'm sure there are financial constraints. I just don't think this article has found the smoking gun it implies it has.
 

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SATA

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I thought Dortmund aren’t selling him anymore after their imaginary deadline? Why does Sancho even need to tell them those things last week?