Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Tom Van Persie, Aug 10, 2019.
I think we are gonna just have to agree to disagree.
On all of it ? If we could have a free pick between Jose, Klopp and Poch you'd opt for Jose ?
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On the fact that you called him a has-been.
Mourinho still a football expert and makes a very good pundit. The reason he can't manage a team anymore, is that he can't deal with the players. His ego is out of control and he's lost his mind since managing Real Madrid. Completely changed his man management style since then imo.
Bitter and deluded, always seems to have a vendetta against certain players and throws them under the bus without hesitation. Nothing is ever his fault. In his last two jobs was total meltdown, falling out with half the players and even ending up in a legal battle with Eva Carneiro with us.
That being said, I can see him going back to Real Madrid on a short term basis anyway, if it all goes wrong for Zidane, which looks pretty probable from their pre season. They might actually need Mourinho to go and put a new tactical structure in for them.
A manager of his supposed caliber should be judged by Leagues and CL's, the rest are candies or consolation prizes if you don't win the big cups. Mourinho won his last league trophy five seasons ago, and his last 4 league campaigns he's ended 16th (sacked), 6th, 2nd and 6th (sacked). His last CL final was in 2010 and from that moment he's won a total of two leagues. Hardly the numbers of a top class manager.
I think Mourinho was a powerful manager more than a decade ago when his approach was in line with how football was played generally. He was hungry, full of energy and he used to become one with his players. After that intense stint at Real I think the man hasn't been the same again and probably that tiredness after many years in the game and personal circumstances have changed the man. Nowadays it seems also that he feels distant from the modern footballer, the softer or flashy characters around in the dressing room, so it's a different story nowadays.
Just take a look at the way he faced press conferences 10 years ago, and the general consensus was that his permanent bullsh** was some kind of strategy to distract the attention from the team and protect his players. He was joking many times as well but then you see the guy here, and even from the first months he was a miserable presence throwing players under the bus with names and surnames, a different film.
From a football point of view we've been under him the team with less distance covered in the league, when the best teams were flying with high pressing, dynamic full backs and permanent movement off the ball to create spaces and ellaborate attacks. Here we had long balls to the reference up front, avoiding the 'first pass' from defence to midfield in many games to avoid a dangerous loss, and then getting back into the cave after a simple 1-0 even at home against the dross. Jurasic stuff in comparison.
Yesterday he kept praising uninspiring oldies like Pedro, Willian above the young talents who are the future of Chelsea, and he remarked also that teams shouldn't be too expansive in terms of movement and positioning to be well prepared after a ball loss. It's obvious that he will never change his principles and will 'die' as a manager with the same beliefs that are leaving him today as a TV commentator while all the big clubs avoid touching the guy with a barge pole. And you if you have a bit of knowledge you can understand why, it was just a matter of time after all. I can see him doing well with a national team in the future, but as a club manager I think he's an extinct animal.
Because I don't think he is? That's why I said we will just have to agree to disagree.
But is there a certain logic to it, or is it just blind faith ?
No it's not just blind faith.
A lot of people hammer Jose and say stuff like he is no longer an elite manager because he doesn't win the league or CL any more and that's how they should be judged. My word, in that case how many managers around truly are elite? Klopp won the CL last season, fair do's but he won feck all with Liverpool before that. Poch still hasn't won anything. In the same space of time at United Jose won the league cup (okay yeah, the smallest domestic trophy) and the Europa League (you know, the only European competition we were in that season). This is just disregarded as nothing for some reason, despite actually winning trophies.
For what it's worth, Poch and Klopp are elite managers in my mind, but to just determine elite managers by winning the very biggest trophies year on year reduces the pool of the so called 'elite managers'.
It didn't go right for him here, and yes a lot of it was down to him, but there were certainly issues coming from the dressing room too. He won 2 major trophies in three years with us, reached another FA Cup final and finished second in the league behind a great Man City team. Yes it imploded, and last season was a disaster, but to discount the rest of his tenure and say he is a has-been is over the top in my opinion.
I pretty much agree with a lot of stuff written in your post. The football player from his career start was a very different one from the nowadays player: nowadays player has more literacy, has better social skills outside the football universe and is probably much better prepared as a footballer.
On his career start, the footballers were less "educated", had less knowledge of the tactical part of the game and their social skills outside the football universe were less wiser, so an iron fist was more needed at those times.
That said, I do think with the right type of squad he can make a good work, but I don't think he has the energy to spend time adapting to a new reality.
Wait, so we get slated for not giving youth a chance and when It happens, we should have started with a front three well past their best (two of which who's best wasn't even that great) instead?
Almost none, surely thats the very definition of Elite? The top 1% of the top 1% otherwise the word is pointless.
I dont think you could say youre giving youth a chance, so much as that all you have to work with. I think the point made was that it would be better to play with more experience against united because even though we are down on our luck, its still united, its still old trafford, and its still 70 thousand fans screaming for united to win. Not the best first game for a predominantly young side that havent worked together a lot. I will say that I dont think the result is any reflection on the team, or the manager. Just not the best first game when you have a lot of youth and a transfer ban.
Precisely. What I was debating is that if you determine a manager as being 'elite' by winning the very top trophies, certain other managers who are also being termed 'elite', like Poch, surely by definition then cannot be 'elite'.
No, I believe playing youth for the sake of playing youth like Lampard does is nonsense and should only be played if they’re a generational talent. A front 3 of Willian, regular starter in 2 Premier League wins for you, Giroud, a starter in a World Cup and Europa League win and Pedro, who’s won pretty much everything while playing a big part are much better than Mason Mount and Tammy Abraham
I see what you are saying but once someone has been elite that doesnt mean they get to stay elite, is Sir Bobby still an Elite player? Jose has lost it. His man management skills are outdated as are his tactics, he is not elite any more. I agree Poch is not Elite, Klopp is bordering on it, but needs to win consistently to cement it.
I agree, I wouldn't say he is elite any more. I only meant that if Poch is termed as Elite, then surely Jose must be considering his trophy record is better over the same period of time.
I also agree on Klopp. Fundamentally, I think Jose is still a very good manager and not a has-been, but no I wouldn't call him Elite any more.
But I still like him and think he is a good pundit which is how this all started anyway
Fair enough mate
Imho, you're simply missing the entire point.
For me it's quite honestly baffling that people don't see the bigger picture here. Klopp's status as a manager has little to do with the CL win last season and more to do with the entire transformation of their first team. Having a clear plan on how to gradually build and improve a team for the long term and not just the short term. Liverpool were in a worse position overall than we were when Klopp took over, heck we were still in a better position when Mourinho took over. It's the same with Pochettino, Tottenham are where they are today due to his influence. Everyone with eyes and half a brain could tell that the two teams were gradually going in the right direction. We finished second in a season where City more or less had the league title sorted out by Christmas, where we never looked likely to compete for anything and got dumped out by Sevilla in the CL after barely creating any chances, while Chelsea won easily in the FA cup against us. Liverpool finished second with an insane point tally, 1 point behind City in a title race that was decided on the last day, it's a very different scenario to us finishing second, but more importantly it says something about the direction a team is heading in. Unless you're actually competing for the title, it doesn't matter if you finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th. Klopp and Poch will leave their clubs in a much better situation than the clubs were in when they first joined.
Mourinho is a has-been because he has failed to adapt to modern football and he doesn't understand how to get the best out of the players. He wants short term solutions for short term gains. We're struggling to get rid of Alexis Sanchez, imagine if we'd ended up getting Perisic and Bale as well, or Willian for that matter, christ. His style of football isn't exactly entertaining, he's all about trying to achieve maximum efficiency and reacting to what the opposition is doing. While the rest of the top clubs are trying to play expansive football, he's stuck with methods that were mint in the early 2000. On top of that you get a manager that is happy to create huge headlines, throw players and higher ups under the bus in order to escape criticism when things go wrong. Essentially, what Mourinho used to bring to the table was trophies and hopefully doing so without ruining too much in the short time (max 3 years) he'd be around. Now it's maximum chaos without the same upside of major trophies. So yeah..Either he doesn't know how to adapt his ideas, improve them to make them more suited to modern day football, or he's just lost the passion he had.
I can easily see him landing a top job within the next 6-7 months, there's always someone getting sacked, but in the end it's going to be a short stay which will see him land a NT job and then retire.
Last year when Sarri was playing Pedro and Willian over Hudson Odoi and World Cup finalist Kovacic over Loftus Cheek every man and his dog were laughing at him but now Lampard's doing it in reverse all off a sudden experience is the one. Also Mount was playing CAM (a position none of above players do), and furthermore he looked perfectly fine yesterday which makes the hatchet job people are doing on him all the more bizarre.
Also Pedro, Willian and Giroud are also more "proven" historically than the front 3 you put out yesterday, fancy a swap?
I'll be honest, I have no idea how we have arrived at this point of an argument when all I said was that I admired Jose and that I quite like him in a punditry thread.
I get it, you don't like him and think he didn't do that well with us. Yes, those managers have made their teams better, fair play. For 2 seasons I'd argue we were better under Jose. The only point where it truly fell apart was last season. I don't understand why people seem determined to just completely write off Jose's 3 seasons here as if they were a total and utter failure. Or indeed why he is a complete has-been.
If you look at a temp situation we were better for one season, Mourinho's first. Essentially we've become worse and one side just won the CL while actually competing for the league, still realistic title candidates against an absurdly good City side, so who gives a feck about being better for one season ?
So you don't think we were better for his second season, when we finished 2nd in the league and got to a cup final? Sure we went out in the Champions League early doors but we were literally the best of the rest in the league?
Again, we were rotten last season and it fell apart, but surely we were better for 2 of his 3 seasons?
Agree totally here. A lot of what he says goes over some people's heads. He was right about Mount and Tammy. He was right about how shit Chelsea were in defensive transition. It was like watching a Wenger team. I'm glad there is someone there who actually understands the game instead of giving the usual nonsense cliche talking points
He is a different person as a manager and pundit. He says one thing, but does other things once he is a manager. When he is a manager, he is on the edge and it feels like he either sabotages things to get sacked or just hasnt got the clear view. I like him as a pundit.
I loved it.
Souness in those pictures above, looks like my dad does when trying to get the TV remote to work.
Someone should tell him it’s a live game and the remote won’t change the channel
Liverpool ignored the Premier League as soon as top 4 was under control so they could focus on the CL. No idea why people are focusing so much on 2nd, 3rd or 4th. In his first season, Mourinho (and his fanbase) took the piss out of finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th without a trophy, whereas our achievement of 6th and a league cup + Europa League was what dreams were made of. Next season we finish 2nd, win feck all, points wise closer to 6th and not 1st, and it's the biggest achievement in Mourinho's career. Strange logic. Not to mention the more obvious issues in his second season, that we didn't look like a team, our overall football was bobbins and behind our goals against stats were horror numbers in terms of goalscoring opportunities given to the opposition but saved by De Gea. Our second season was a sign of negative things to come, Tottenham and Liverpool were a sign of good things to come. So no.
The problem isn't his understanding of the game, but his solutions.
I'm strickly speaking about him as a pundit. I enjoy listening to him. Never want to see him manage our club again.
Because if you finish second to this Man City team, you are the best of the rest in the league. You're arguing his second season with us was mince because we had a terrible last season. How does that work? Surely you can have two good seasons, have an absolutely disaster in the market and pre-season, then implode in the third season, ergo that's one poor season?
Also, at the end of his second season, we beat City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. We can't have been that bad.
Finishing sixth in Mourinho's first season does not constitute as a good season, even if we won the Europa League and the League Cup.
Winning two trophies in a season, one of which helps you qualify for the Champions League, doesn't constitute a good season now?
They were all crap. Jose included. He finished outside the top 4 in 2 of his 3 seasons.
I dont know why youre persisting mate. Youll never break the bitter barrier of some people on here.
I hear there are some positions available in China. That's about his level now. He's done at the top. No shame in that - he had a great run.
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