Jude Bellingham

mav_9me

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The bigger argument against him going there would be Gio Reyna. Another young midfielder. How much game time can they realistically offer two teenage midfielders?
 

Brightonian

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The bigger argument against him going there would be Gio Reyna. Another young midfielder. How much game time can they realistically offer two teenage midfielders?
I see Reyna as much more of an attacking player, an old-school #10 in competition with the likes of Brandt and Hazard more than a true CM like Bellingham. Of course you still have a point, since they currently have Witsel, Delaney, Can and Dahoud dominating game time in midfield. But Can is only on loan, and at 31 Witsel is going to start to age out of regular game time sooner rather than later. Despite their high hopes for him Dahoud is yet to really make a spot his, and Delaney is no world-beater either.

Given the high player turnover at a club like Dortmund, a 16-year-old who backs himself could definitely see an opportunity there. More immediately, I think, than he could expect to get good game time with us, much as I think we're a respectable option for him.
 

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I’d say he’s most likely picked Dortmund based on the recent noise. If they really are paying him twice as much and offering him lots of game time then fair enough. Dortmund may prove to be a very smart move on his part. He could be coming back to England in a few years as a household name.The fact it is this far down to the wire between us and Dortmund illustrate he must be a really special player in the making. It’ll be sickening paying crazy money to get him back if he turns out good but it sounds like we went all in on this so what can you do.
 

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In accounting terms it works differently which is why many people get confused.

Our debt showed it went up and people straight away suspected it was the Glazers borrowing more from the club, but it was actually just us spending from the bank but keeping our cash.

It's actually better for a business to hold onto their cash but borrow more. Sounds weird but with the way taxitation works it's better.
You obviously understand this, but i wish it was more commonplace for the everyay man to also be aware of this.

Debt in corporate world is not a scary word. I've taken out large loans in my own companies to fund operation. Debt helps keeping the actual profits in the company, helps with tax savings and is an excellent low cost source of funds.

In terms of spending, I'll just put up a very stupid and easy to understand example:

#1

You have £100k
You buy a player for £100k in cash

Now you have £0 in the bank, but a £100k non-realized (financial) asset. You now have to borrow funds from the bank to cover cost of operation, salaries etc. Cashflow has a delay, you always need cash at hand.

#2

You have £100k

You loan £100k
You buy a player for £80k, with annual installments for £10k and £10k

You now have £120k in the bank, a £100k player and money to pay the quarterly fee using your operation income.

Leveraging your debt and cash reserves coupled with income and cash flow is how you build a successfull strong business. If you take on "safe" debt, honeslty, get as much of it as you can. The loan institutions will take leverage in your asset. This is in simpleton terms how Manchester Untied is bought, through security in the club itself.

Regarding Net spend, that's not an actual thing in accounting, but that's a whole other topic.
Unless more information has come out that I haven’t seen, that’s not what happened though. It was reported that NET debt increased, which is a simple equation of total debt minus cash on hand. We spent some of our cash, which meant that the net debt increased. But actual debt obligations remained the same. This didn’t account for all net debt increases, as some was caused by fluctuations in the exchange rate. As debt is held in dollars and cash is held in pounds and euros. We carry both.
 

Harry190

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Is he out of contract in the summer? I thought it runs until 2021.
He's not on a pro contract because his age did not allow it. It's quite apparent Dortmund are offering silly money to dissuade him from agreeing new terms. They get him for nothing. Better spend the 60k per week +max 2 million sign on fee than the odd 20-30 million he'd cost otherwise.
 

sun_tzu

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He's not on a pro contract because his age did not allow it. It's quite apparent Dortmund are offering silly money to dissuade him from agreeing new terms. They get him for nothing. Better spend the 60k per week +max 2 million sign on fee than the odd 20-30 million he'd cost otherwise.
and lets be honest 60k a week for 3 years is 9 million in wages ... if hes even half the player they make him out to be dortmund can expect 10X that back in 2023
 

romufc

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That is nonsense. Sancho needed a month or two and he was in the first team squad, with getting some game time as well. He was starting games for them in mid season in his first season.

Nobody is saying he will be a starter and play 30 games for them in CM. But being mainly a sub/rotation player in his first season at Dortmund and playing in the CL on good wages is a dream for every 17 year old. If he does well, he will have his pick of clubs in the PL in a couple of years.
He started 12 Bundesliga games in his first season. In his second season he didn't start the first 6 games.

Actually yes, if you bother to read the previous posts, it was mentioned he is being guaranteed first team football. Pick of PL clubs? No, only the ones who will be able to afford him because if he does well, BVB will sell for £80m plus. And then you have a select few clubs that can afford him.

So no, he has more of a pick now than in 2 years time.

Again, you are wrong about the dream for 17yr old, most 17 year olds that come through mention their dream being able to play first team football and securing their spot.
 

Adisa

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I don't understand, is it true that Dortmund only have to pay a nominal fee?
 

Adam-Utd

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I don't understand, is it true that Dortmund only have to pay a nominal fee?
At the moment Bellingham is only on a junior contract, not a professional one.

That means that he can leave for free, but Birmingham could claim compensation in court, probably get a few million.

The rumour was Bellingham was going to sign professional terms at 18 years old so that Birmingham could sell him ASAP and receive a fair transfer profit.
 

Adisa

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At the moment Bellingham is only on a junior contract, not a professional one.

That means that he can leave for free, but Birmingham could claim compensation in court, probably get a few million.

The rumour was Bellingham was going to sign professional terms at 18 years old so that Birmingham could sell him ASAP and receive a fair transfer profit.
Some are saying we can't compete with Dortmund on wages because we will pay a far higher transfer fee?
 

Adam-Utd

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Some are saying we can't compete with Dortmund on wages because we will pay a far higher transfer fee?
Well don't listen to them. Dortmund might be willing to offer more and that's up to them, but we would be in no different situation than Dortmund if he doesn't sign a pro deal at Birmingham.
 

sun_tzu

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Some are saying we can't compete with Dortmund on wages because we will pay a far higher transfer fee?
Well don't listen to them. Dortmund might be willing to offer more and that's up to them, but we would be in no different situation than Dortmund if he doesn't sign a pro deal at Birmingham.
actually they may be right...
The method of determining compensation from a uk to a uk club is administered by the FA... if its an international transfer its administered by FIFA
So they probably would come up with different amounts
Training compensation shall be paid to a player’s training club(s): (1) when a player signs his first contract as a professional and (2) each time a professional is transferred until the end of the season of his 23rd birthday."[266]
However, FIFA does not have any power to force member associations to enforce the clause, thus FIFA only has jurisdiction on international transfers for claiming compensation. Youth clubs are ranked by their sizes to receive certain amount of money, which the schedule of rate would be updated periodically, however the rates would also be affected by the new club that signs the player.[267] Newcastle United had to pay compensation for Charles N'Zogbia even though was signed as a free agent.[268][269]

Disagreement over training compensation sometimes produces legal battles in order to escape the payment, which Matthias Lepiller was signed in 2006 by Fiorentina, however an appeal in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) was rejected in 2011, five years after Lepiller left the club. Clubs also arranged special transfer agreement in order to lower the actual signing cost. For example, Attila Filkor joined a Maltese club as free agent and immediately sold to Inter Milan. As the schedule of rates between Maltese and Italian top division were different, cost was saved until Filkor's mother club sued Inter to FIFA.

The FA has its own system of training compensation; for example, Chelsea were required to pay compensation to Manchester City for Daniel Sturridge.

In Italy,[270] Career Premium (Italian: Premio alla carriera) were paid to mother club once the players had make his Serie A debut or Italy under-21 debut,[271] for example, Davide Moscardelli. While Preparation Premium (Italian: Premi di Preparazione) were paid to youth clubs when the players signed his first professional contract.[272]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_(association_football)
https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/i...pensation-and-solidarity-payments-in-football
 

Adam-Utd

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actually they may be right...
The method of determining compensation from a uk to a uk club is administered by the FA... if its an international transfer its administered by FIFA
So they probably would come up with different amounts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_(association_football)
https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/i...pensation-and-solidarity-payments-in-football
While that's true the difference won't be huge. Probably a few million at the most.

It won't be the difference whether sign him or not, it'll be down to his personal choice.
 

Adam-Utd

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A few million for a club like Birmingham is huge.
Fair enough, but obviously they'd rather he signs a pro deal and then they'd get 30m instead of 6m at a tribunal.

If they lose him for "free" they'd never get the same figure. The point is for either United or Juve if he DOESNT sign a pro deal at Birmingham they'd get him for a steal.
 

Lynty

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I thought players could sign pro at 17 in the UK (It's 18 in Spain) Which would mean that Bellingham signs a pro-contract in 30 days time.

Judging from nothing but rumours, looking at Dortmund tactics to get Sancho from City and how we do our business, i'd guess the two clubs are using different negotiation tactics.

Dortmund are making terms with Bellingham, asking him to reject a pro contract at the end of June in favor of a better salary.
United are playing the emotional/morally correct card and making terms with Birmingham, happy for Bellingham to sign a pro contract at the end of June with a mutually agreeable buy out clause, which will then be triggered.

I think don't think there's a bad choice between the two clubs at the moment. He'll get chances at both. From what I hear from die hard City fans from my area, Bellingham's dad will be biggest decision maker.
 

Harry190

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I thought players could sign pro at 17 in the UK (It's 18 in Spain) Which would mean that Bellingham signs a pro-contract in 30 days time.

Judging from nothing but rumours, looking at Dortmund tactics to get Sancho from City and how we do our business, i'd guess the two clubs are using different negotiation tactics.

Dortmund are making terms with Bellingham, asking him to reject a pro contract at the end of June in favor of a better salary.
United are playing the emotional/morally correct card and making terms with Birmingham, happy for Bellingham to sign a pro contract at the end of June with a mutually agreeable buy out clause, which will then be triggered.

I think don't think there's a bad choice between the two clubs at the moment. He'll get chances at both. From what I hear from die hard City fans from my area, Bellingham's dad will be biggest decision maker.
Likely to be exactly what's happening as of now.
 

RRCE

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I thought players could sign pro at 17 in the UK (It's 18 in Spain) Which would mean that Bellingham signs a pro-contract in 30 days time.

Judging from nothing but rumours, looking at Dortmund tactics to get Sancho from City and how we do our business, i'd guess the two clubs are using different negotiation tactics.

Dortmund are making terms with Bellingham, asking him to reject a pro contract at the end of June in favor of a better salary.
United are playing the emotional/morally correct card and making terms with Birmingham, happy for Bellingham to sign a pro contract at the end of June with a mutually agreeable buy out clause, which will then be triggered.

I think don't think there's a bad choice between the two clubs at the moment. He'll get chances at both. From what I hear from die hard City fans from my area, Bellingham's dad will be biggest decision maker.
This might be a fairly accurate assessment of where things are at. If so, then I can only see him ending up at Dortmund. At the end of the day, money talks and the vast majority of players will (understandably) take all they can get. If Dortmund are offering him twice the wage, combined with the knowledge that they’re a selling club and he’ll be able to move on if / when he decides, a move to Germany likely makes a lot of sense for him.

If he’s at all inclined to join a United, it would be interesting to see if United would match Dortmund’s offer. At the end of the day, if the boy makes it clear that he’s not signing a pro contract with Birmingham, then I can’t see United being worried about the morality of the situation. After all, he’d be leaving Birmingham anyway. Further, regrading the pure dollars of the deal, does it really matter if the money goes to Birmingham (transfer fee) or Bellingham (signing bonus and wage)? The bigger issue may be the internal wage structure, and United simply not wanting to pay a 17 year old kid 60K (or whatever the number may be) a week.

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. At the end of the day, if the club honestly believes in the boys’ talent and ability to become a star, they should just find a way to get it done.
 

Adnan

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Neil Moxley who is a Birmingham based Journo has said the following in his latest piece.

"His dad Mark is understood to be keen to follow Sancho’s example and for his son to continue his footballing education abroad"

"Birmingham are relatively relaxed about the situation because it is understood release figures over his transfer have been worked into his scholarship contract, dependent upon his first-team appearances at St Andrew’s. And that perhaps explains why the youngster has played well over 30 times for Pep Clotet’s men this season"

It explains why Birmingham played him 30 times in the first team. They covered all bases.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/jack-grealish-forces-way-ahead-22150518
 

pascell

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Neil Moxley who is a Birmingham based Journo has said the following in his latest piece.

"His dad Mark is understood to be keen to follow Sancho’s example and for his son to continue his footballing education abroad"

"Birmingham are relatively relaxed about the situation because it is understood release figures over his transfer have been worked into his scholarship contract, dependent upon his first-team appearances at St Andrew’s. And that perhaps explains why the youngster has played well over 30 times for Pep Clotet’s men this season"

It explains why Birmingham played him 30 times in the first team. They covered all bases.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/jack-grealish-forces-way-ahead-22150518
Doesn't sound good about our chances if that's the route his dad thinks is best for his career.
 

SweetRightFoot

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Neil Moxley who is a Birmingham based Journo has said the following in his latest piece.

"His dad Mark is understood to be keen to follow Sancho’s example and for his son to continue his footballing education abroad"

"Birmingham are relatively relaxed about the situation because it is understood release figures over his transfer have been worked into his scholarship contract, dependent upon his first-team appearances at St Andrew’s. And that perhaps explains why the youngster has played well over 30 times for Pep Clotet’s men this season"

It explains why Birmingham played him 30 times in the first team. They covered all bases.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/jack-grealish-forces-way-ahead-22150518
Can't blame him. Even I can admit that it will more than likely be better for his development if he goes to Germany first.
 

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Sancho has gaps that full backs gave him in the Bundesliga to exploit and grow bit by bit, game by game as an extremely young player.

Midfield will be a totally different level of pressing and pressure that Bellingham will require technical ability for in Germany for. Good luck to him.
 

mav_9me

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Can't blame him. Even I can admit that it will more than likely be better for his development if he goes to Germany first.
Normally I would agree but my concern would be Dortmund have their own youngster in Reyna to develop who plays as attacking midfielder. I guess they could give them both game time but I have my doubts as to how feasible that is.
 

Rozay

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Normally I would agree but my concern would be Dortmund have their own youngster in Reyna to develop who plays as attacking midfielder. I guess they could give them both game time but I have my doubts as to how feasible that is.
Well if they bought Bellingham they’d have two!
 

Thiagoal

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Can't blame him. Even I can admit that it will more than likely be better for his development if he goes to Germany first.
I’m sorry but I don’t buy that! Who’s to say how well he’ll settle in Germany? There have been numerous cases of exceptionally talented kids from Britain moving abroad really young only to Cole back very quickly or disappear off the map- Oliver Burke, Marcus McGuane, George Hirst, Louie Barry are examples

United are the best team at giving talented kids a chance- it’s built into our DNA. We have some of the most talented young players in world football that he can learn and develop with.
 

Bondi77

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I’m sorry but I don’t buy that! Who’s to say how well he’ll settle in Germany? There have been numerous cases of exceptionally talented kids from Britain moving abroad really young only to Cole back very quickly or disappear off the map- Oliver Burke, Marcus McGuane, George Hirst, Louie Barry are examples

United are the best team at giving talented kids a chance- it’s built into our DNA. We have some of the most talented young players in world football that he can learn and develop with.
That is what I would have thought.
Surely the best option for the kid is to sign with us and then possibly spend another year at Birmingham or come into the first team.
Ole is obviously going to be with us long term so it will be great environment for the young players.
 

Carl

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Seemingly the Sancho example is reason enough to say he'd develop better/quicker in Germany. AWB, Williams, McTominay, Rashford and Greenwood have all shown that there are plenty opportunities to get games and develop at United though.
 

cyberman

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United more than matches Dortmunds youth record, it just sounds like horseshit to me.
I wonder if theres a percentage of a future sale ala Halaand coming their way..
 

Adisa

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United more than matches Dortmunds youth record, it just sounds like horseshit to me.
I wonder if theres a percentage of a future sale ala Halaand coming their way..
Yes but in his own case, I think he has an easier path to 1st team at Dortmund.
 

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Its more of a case thats its easier to get out of Dortmund. They know they can spend a couple of seasons establishing themselves then move on to a bigger club. Plus there will be less pressure. Imagine the pressure of trying to make it at United together with the British press giving you grief. Lots of reasons but I dont think its because they have a better history of establishing youth payers. Its just that they cant say...'Oh Im shtting myself joining United. There will be so much pressure and the press are right arses. Plus I want to see if I can go to Barca in a couple of years.'
 

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I would have thought it would be detrimental to play a lot of games at the top level for one so young.
If he made the bench in a few premier league games and played in the cup games I would have thought that would be a good progression into the top flight.
 

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I also don't see the perspective the lads dad has regarding development in Germany. Dahoud, Gotze and Weigl are midfield talents who more recently haven't been effective in regards to fulfilling their potential despite being considered extremely talented at youth level. Sancho is not a good example considering the talent he has, it's like using Mbappe as a justification to go to Monaco. It was City's inadequacy to not play Sancho which lead him to the Bundesliga. I feel he has the talent to excel irrespective of the league he's in.
 

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I also don't see the perspective the lads dad has regarding development in Germany. Dahoud, Gotze and Weigl are midfield talents who more recently haven't been effective in regards to fulfilling their potential despite being considered extremely talented at youth level. Sancho is not a good example considering the talent he has, it's like using Mbappe as a justification to go to Monaco. It was City's inadequacy to not play Sancho which lead him to the Bundesliga. I feel he has the talent to excel irrespective of the league he's in.
Agreed, the idea that you go to Dortmund and just become the next Sancho is wrong, Sancho is a special talent who would have likely excelled anywhere. That being said people talk about Bellingham in the same way and I could understand if his family felt his development would be better served out of the glare of the English press and that having time abroad could make him into a more rounded adult, it wouldn't be a commitment to staying at Dortmund for the rest of his career.

It does also have to be said that Dortmund are just better than us right now, if he is so good that both clubs would be ready to include him as part of their first team squads immediately then he could justifiably look at them and think they're more likely to be in the Champions League and maybe pinch a league title in the next two or three years than we are.
 

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I don’t think that Sancho had quite the level of competition for places that Bellingham will be facing.
Sancho came in competing with Yarmolenko, Pulisic, Scürrle and the perpetually injured Reus.
Bellingham will probably have experienced players in Can, Witsel, Delaney, Dahoud but also other young highly rated talents like Brandt and Reyna.

Also, Ole isn’t going anywhere at the moment whilst Favres position looks very much up in the air. Doesn’t seem like the best of times for a kid to join a club that’s in between managers.
 

Bondi77

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The kid would have mates as well in England and has he finished his education?
It would be hard going to another country when your only social outlet are your folks.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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The kid would have mates as well in England and has he finished his education?
It would be hard going to another country when your only social outlet are your folks.
Strange really. More reasonable choice is for a 16 year old to slowly adapt not take him all the way to Germany. United buying and loaning him back is the most reasonable for a 16 year old