People said Arsenal would challenge?
Kai Havertz
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If they do get Havertz, I think he and Werner together will score Chelsea a lot of goals. Let's not kid ourselves, both very good players and they will adapt to the premier league.
I still think Chelsea lack a leader/personality on the pitch - this is their biggest problem. A good central defender will help.
I still think Chelsea lack a leader/personality on the pitch - this is their biggest problem. A good central defender will help.
Thing is someone like Dunk probably improves that Chelsea defence but even he would probably cost 50m
Dunk! Forgot about him. He's good for Chelsea
Everyone was ranting and raving last summer when they spent some money and had them as a top four team and some even had them challenging. The thing is people just love new signings and so they invariably become overrated. The reality is it’s always better to have a settled team and have to add 1/2 players which is where Utd are now at. Werner really isn’t that great, Havertz I’ll admit is a very talented player but I can’t see him going to Chelsea in all honesty.
They need a new back five first.
Add here the defense issues, and they could blow up spectacularly next season.
Imahine Chelsea not making Champions league and he decides to stay in Leverkusen and wait for Bayern instead
I don’t know enough about Havertz but I’d of thought they’d be far better going after someone like Koulibaly.
Id have zero worries about playing them, sitting deep and counter attacking the defence.
Willian will be a massive loss too.
Id have zero worries about playing them, sitting deep and counter attacking the defence.
Willian will be a massive loss too.
Leverkusen isn't in CL though.
Yes I know. If it's a choice between going to Chelsea and playing in Europa league or staying in Leverkusen and playing in Europa League then going to Bayern the the next season I can see him going for the latter.
Chelsea need a GK CB and Left back and they want to buy this guy for 90m...wow
That's true.... team chemistry is very important and getting about 4 first teamers can be tricky. However, if one or two of them click from the get go, they could pose a title challenge. Ziyech will be really crucial as he'll be an assist machine for them. They've lacked creativity and a finisher when it comes to attack. But they would need to fix their leaky defense first.
I mean, outside of Koulibaly who would cost €90m at age 29, who else is really out there and available? At the moment it's an extremely poor CB market; don't think this is a controversial statement.
Koulibaly doesn't want to leave Napoli it's also worth noting.
Also a very good point! Everyone keeps going on about how Chelsea need to buy defenders instead of Havertz, but there are no clear CB upgrades who are actually available right now. Upamecano? He's still very raw and while his ceiling is higher than any of our CBs I'm not positive he's an upgrade from day 1 next year. Ake? Also unsure he's an actual upgrade and he's also quite short which would only exacerbate our set piece "defending" issues.
Basically there's no defender currently available that I'd rather purchase over Havertz. £50m for 28 year old Lewis Dunk versus £80m for 21 year old Kai Havertz? You'd have to be insane to choose Dunk, I don't care if your CB partnership is Titus Bramble and his twin brother Bitus Tramble. Chelsea aren't winning the league next year, it makes far more sense to invest in players who will improve and have a chance at winning ~2-3 years down the line.
You don't need to be a world class to be a leader. Tarkowski, Dunk, de Vrij, and etc. Just because some of them are no big name doesn't mean they are as clueless as Titus Bramble. Never mind DM, if you can't afford at least a CB after after signing your Havertz, good luck for next season.
Tarkowski would cost at least £50m as a 27 year old. Dunk the same and he's 28. de Vrij is 28, probably not an option given Conte's animosity towards Chelsea, and frankly I'm not convinced he fits in as the missing piece - for me he's always been more impressive in a 3 than in a 2 and I'm not sure he ticks the requisite leadership boxes.
If they will cost cheap, they won't be considered as upgrade of what you have. What do you expect 30m? That's a punt of centre back. We spent 80m on Maguire and his leadership skill influenced the improvement of our defense this season. Bet you laughed at it when you heard the news about us spent the money on him. End of the day, you will need to improve both attack & defense, doesn't mean you need to fully fix it this summer. Whether it's DM or CB, conceded 3 goals to West Ham & Sheffield is not good enough for next season.
But this is exactly my point. I'd rather not spend huge fees on mediocre players that are (at best) marginal upgrades over what we have currently. This is how we got Drinkwater, Batshuayi, Emerson, Zappacosta, etc. I would much rather spend 90m on a top class talent like Havertz and ~25-30m on a quality goalkeeper this summer instead of panic buying overpriced & mediocre players for outsized fees based on the needs of the squad.
I also am fully aware that our defense is unlikely to be adequate to mount a title challenge next season - I'm thinking about 2-3 seasons down the line. Spending a shedload on mediocre defenders who are already 27-29 doesn't make much sense given that timeline. It's absolutely a no-brainer to get a world class talent in instead who aligns with the age profile of the squad and we can worry about the defense later.
They aren't mediocre players if they are better than whatever you got and improve your defense.
But objectively yes they are. Just because they'd be replacing crap doesn't mean they're worth paying over the odds for. Allocating £50m of the transfer budget to get Lewis Dunk at the cost of Kai Havertz might (and frankly I'd disagree with this, but oh well) give us a better chance of the title next year, but it gives us a far lower chance of winning the title in 21/22 and in every year after that.
Well, we can agree and disagree. If my defense is like Chelsea defense, I see it as good value to spend, not only play in the back for at least 4 years but be mentor for the young ones. Beside, if the club will just pay whatever the other club wants then there is no need for negotiation in the first place to get it cheaper than what they asked.
But again, my point is that there are no good CB targets who actually would unequivocally improve the team. Tarkowski? Yes he's a decent player but he's worth nowhere near £50m. Is he guaranteed to come in and improve the team to the extent that we'd be title contenders? I think you'd be hard pressed to say yes.
Also, Chelsea have fewer xG conceded than Liverpool. The far bigger problem is Kepa. Given that our CBs have previously been very good / great whilst in front of a competent GK in Courtois, I'm much more inclined to bring in a better GK, see how the CBs react, and make moves in future markets where there is more potential value for CBs compared to this one.
I just told you that they would have improved your defense as both leader and mentor for the young ones. You refuse to listen to others and only listen to your own. I never say sign 1 CB and it will solve everything and be title contender. I said you need to improve the defense. If you conceded 3 goals in lot of games against the likes of Sheffield & West Ham, never mind title contender, top 4 will be difficult.
What you need to see is xGA not xG. Your xGA is below United, Liverpool, Wolves & City at the moment.
Chelsea need a new backline including a keeper
I mean, your guarantee that they'd improve it is all well and good but it's not really set in stone, is it? Paying £50m for Tarkowski definitely evokes shades of Drinkwater for £40m - also an established PL player, on the fringes of the national side, etc.
My point is there is more or less a guarantee that Kai Havertz will improve the team as he's replacing Ross Barkley, being already better and 5+ years younger. There is far less of a guarantee that Tarkowski or Dunk improves Chelsea, and even if they did the improvement would be over a shorter period of time anyway.
Also right now Chelsea are 4th in xGA, after Wolves, Man City, & Man Utd. 5th in xGA is Liverpool. This is my point - Chelsea's defense has talent but has been let down by the goalkeeper. He has the lowest save percentage in the history of the PL. This is 560 individual seasons - he ranks 560th.
Enough about xG's and analysis. Lets bring back focus on Kai the player.
Kai Havertz again is a player with a high football IQ. I know many players get considered intelligent because they behave well under pressure, but Havertz is different. His actions do make sense all the time and give his team much-needed solutions in possession. The young German combines all types of passes with good off-ball movement and extraordinary behaviour under pressure. No matter if his team needs through balls, long balls to switch sides or quick one-touch passes in tight spaces. Kai Havertz offers all those passes.
When Bayer Leverkusen had problems with injuries, Kai Havertz had to play as a central midfielder. While Leverkusen struggled Havertz was one of the better players an unfamiliar position. From a technical standpoint Kai Havertz doesn’t seem to be the perfect offensive midfielder. Especially, his first touch isn’t always the best. But he is capable of quickly controlling and protecting the ball afterwards. His second touch is always pretty good and allows him to dribble past the opponent or play the dangerous pass. Furthermore, he can play accurate passes even without having the best body position. Havertz not only plays the simple flat through balls during counter-attacks. His good observation of the game allows him to see the open space and be aware of the movement of the defenders. Besides his passing abilities, Havertz shows that he can be a dangerous offensive player who can surprise a defence when they are concentrating on the striker. Havertz shows great awareness of holes in the defence. That’s why he is so dangerous after crosses. The fact that he often appears in the right spot at the right time is a positive sign and a clear indicator of his high football IQ. The technical execution is trainable easily, however, learning how and when to arrive in the box is harder. His timing when starting runs is really impressive and defenders normally struggle to defend those situations, especially if the striker waits in the right spot, the defender has to observe the ball and the striker simultaneously. Problems occur when the striker is positioned behind the defender because then the defender can only react to the movement. It is impossible to observe both, the ball and his opponent, at the same time. Using that advantage correctly, Havertz time after time arrives in the dangerous space while the defender often cannot adjust his position quickly enough to cover the midfield run. Funnily enough, Lampard is the closest midfielder I can think of who has utilized this to perfection.
No matter which position Kai Havertz plays, the fact that he rarely struggles under pressure makes him so valuable for his team. Although Havertz has great technical abilities his dribblings look sometimes inaccurate but are highly effective. His biggest strength is his usage of open space. When a defender pushes out of position Havertz has a great timing of pushing the ball into the open space and therefore unbalance the defender. That’s why he often gets fouled.
Kai Havertz again is a player with a high football IQ. I know many players get considered intelligent because they behave well under pressure, but Havertz is different. His actions do make sense all the time and give his team much-needed solutions in possession. The young German combines all types of passes with good off-ball movement and extraordinary behaviour under pressure. No matter if his team needs through balls, long balls to switch sides or quick one-touch passes in tight spaces. Kai Havertz offers all those passes.
When Bayer Leverkusen had problems with injuries, Kai Havertz had to play as a central midfielder. While Leverkusen struggled Havertz was one of the better players an unfamiliar position. From a technical standpoint Kai Havertz doesn’t seem to be the perfect offensive midfielder. Especially, his first touch isn’t always the best. But he is capable of quickly controlling and protecting the ball afterwards. His second touch is always pretty good and allows him to dribble past the opponent or play the dangerous pass. Furthermore, he can play accurate passes even without having the best body position. Havertz not only plays the simple flat through balls during counter-attacks. His good observation of the game allows him to see the open space and be aware of the movement of the defenders. Besides his passing abilities, Havertz shows that he can be a dangerous offensive player who can surprise a defence when they are concentrating on the striker. Havertz shows great awareness of holes in the defence. That’s why he is so dangerous after crosses. The fact that he often appears in the right spot at the right time is a positive sign and a clear indicator of his high football IQ. The technical execution is trainable easily, however, learning how and when to arrive in the box is harder. His timing when starting runs is really impressive and defenders normally struggle to defend those situations, especially if the striker waits in the right spot, the defender has to observe the ball and the striker simultaneously. Problems occur when the striker is positioned behind the defender because then the defender can only react to the movement. It is impossible to observe both, the ball and his opponent, at the same time. Using that advantage correctly, Havertz time after time arrives in the dangerous space while the defender often cannot adjust his position quickly enough to cover the midfield run. Funnily enough, Lampard is the closest midfielder I can think of who has utilized this to perfection.
No matter which position Kai Havertz plays, the fact that he rarely struggles under pressure makes him so valuable for his team. Although Havertz has great technical abilities his dribblings look sometimes inaccurate but are highly effective. His biggest strength is his usage of open space. When a defender pushes out of position Havertz has a great timing of pushing the ball into the open space and therefore unbalance the defender. That’s why he often gets fouled.
You bought Drinkwater who only had one season wonder, and compare it to the ones who have been consistent for many years in EPL or Serie A.
You're not reading. I never say to forget to sign attackers. I said you also need to improve the defense.
4-5 years minimum to be leader of defense in additional be a mentor of the young players. If that's not part of set in stone, I don't know what do you call set in stone.
Chelsea is below Liverpool. https://understat.com/league/EPL
Understat is the most bare-bones xG model, you're better off with StatsBomb as it's far more sophisticated:
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/Premier-League-Stats
I'm absolutely reading what you say and I just fundamentally disagree that the players you've suggested are guarantees to walk in and improve our defense when there are clearly larger issues, namely with the goalkeeper. Regardless, I'd rather bank on world class talent like Havertz instead of gambling on mediocre PL CBs hoping they can step up to the requisite level.
I already told you that I'll go along with whatever you think. Why would I care about Chelsea decides not to sign those players anyway. It works wonder for me as a United fans if Chelsea not to add Dunk or Koulibally and those other leader CB and also DM. Not to mention if Chelsea chose to go for Havertz and not Sancho, every United fans can't complain about it.
The suggestion that players like Tarkowski are somehow better defenders than Zouma and Christensen is quite bizarre.
Chelsea's xGa is decent. It shows that over the course of the season we have tended to defend pretty well as a team. The freak outlier in that back 5 is the keeper who is having a historically terrible season both statistically and the good old eye test.
Back to the thread. Looking at Leicester's run in, which is all of a sudden comparable to ours, if not worse, I'm pretty confident we'll finish 4th and secure Havertz.
Chelsea's xGa is decent. It shows that over the course of the season we have tended to defend pretty well as a team. The freak outlier in that back 5 is the keeper who is having a historically terrible season both statistically and the good old eye test.
Back to the thread. Looking at Leicester's run in, which is all of a sudden comparable to ours, if not worse, I'm pretty confident we'll finish 4th and secure Havertz.
Keeper wasn't at fault against Sheffield for example, and the record on corners and set pieces isn't just down to the keeper either.
Keeper really is bad, but its not solely on him as a team the defending isn't great.
Tarkowski isn't necessarily better Burnley is a defensive team and as a team defends better than Chelsea. Especially earlier in the season Chelsea was very open in the way they played and extremely naive.
Chelsea need to dial it down and look at their back.
Football is not all about attacking.
I mean, I don't mind if they let their defenses worsening/stalling just a neutral point of view.
Football is not all about attacking.
I mean, I don't mind if they let their defenses worsening/stalling
just a neutral point of view.Seeing the many influx of attacking players joining them..
= Would also mean some players will be unhappy.
Time to start "poaching" targeting some of those.
= Would also mean some players will be unhappy.
Time to start "poaching" targeting some of those.Someone pointed how Kepa has the
terrible tendency to swing his arms back when he's facing a shot, which he said impacts his reaction time, and gives him less purchase on the ball, if he does manage to get his hand on it.
I went back and watched the goals we conceded at the weekend, and lo and behold, he does it every single time. I'm no expert on a GK's body position, so I don't *actually* know if it negatively impacts his ability to save a shot but it's quite a peculiar habit. Once you see it you can't unsee it. He does it every time.
It doesn't negate the catalogue of defensive errors that led to all of the goals, but I just meant generally speaking , our xGa suggests over the course of the season we have played pretty well defensively. Yet we have conceded 49 goals, so what gives?
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Again not to derail the thread too much. I'm happy to continue the conversation over in the Chelsea thread
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Sure, Barkley + Jorginho for £100m. Deal? Perfect.Seeing the many influx of attacking players joining them..
= Would also mean some players will be unhappy.
I agree with this. Havertz is a great long term investment and I wouldn't be lining up to spend £50m on Dunk or Tarkowski. Get Havertz in now and wait for a better CB to become availible. If you still had the budget for Dunk after Havertz then yeah go for him too.
Arsenals defence is also poor...Someone pointed how Kepa has the
terrible tendency to swing his arms back when he's facing a shot, which he said impacts his reaction time, and gives him less purchase on the ball, if he does manage to get his hand on it.
I went back and watched the goals we conceded at the weekend, and lo and behold, he does it every single time. I'm no expert on a GK's body position, so I don't *actually* know if it negatively impacts his ability to save a shot but it's quite a peculiar habit. Once you see it you can't unsee it. He does it every time.
It doesn't negate the catalogue of defensive errors that led to all of the goals, but I just meant generally speaking , our xGa suggests over the course of the season we have played pretty well defensively. Yet we have conceded 49 goals, so what gives?
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Again not to derail the thread too much. I'm happy to continue the conversation over in the Chelsea thread
I agree with you both.
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