Kai Havertz

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Anyways not sure why every thread ends up with comparing players and especially with Rashford.
A: My dad beats up your dad!
B: Nuh huh!
A: Uh huh!
B: Nuh huh!!
...
 

E-mal

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I can see his passing has improved, but that's because he was average before.

If Rashford's performance over the course of the season really has been great, then how did he get a season average rating of 5.8?

A great performance surely is a solid 9?
Thats because a lot of fans are reactionary following a game and score players 2 after an average game.
In a normal world a 22 year old scoring 17 league goals in the EPL is a damn good return especially when players like Salah and Auba are just slightly better.
 

-Supreme-

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Exactly, he had few poor games but this "he was poor since restart" is just way off the mark.

Anyways not sure why every thread ends up with comparing players and especially with Rashford.
Who said Rashford was poor since the restart?
 

-Supreme-

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Thats because a lot of fans are reactionary following a game and score players 2 after an average game.
In a normal world a 22 year old scoring 17 league goals in the EPL is a damn good return especially when players like Salah and Auba are just slightly better.
If Rashford has been consistently great this season then surely those reactionary fans would have given him a higher than 5.8 average rating, particularly his goals and assists are a standout this season.
 

LoneStar

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Why is a transfer thread for a Chelsea target so active? Are we in for him or are there so many Chelsea fans here
 

E-mal

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If Rashford has been consistently great this season then surely those reactionary fans would have given him a higher than 5.8 average rating, particularly his goals and assists are a standout this season.
Because perspective is not a virtue on the caf.
 

cyberman

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I can see his passing has improved, but that's because he was average before.

If Rashford's performance over the course of the season really has been great, then how did he get a season average rating of 5.8?

A great performance surely is a solid 9?
Because we hate our own players?
Looking at it now, Rashford has been fantastic since the start. The Southampton goal, the chance he created and shot that the defender glanced off the line, his goal v Palace and the fantastic skill to start the Martial goal and the delicate pass to set up the goal.
The all round play of our front 4 has been sensational. Nobody underperformed.
 

Dancfc

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In fact based on what they have done in the game it is a joke to compare them.
If we're basing things on what they've "done so far" Tammy is superior to Greenwood however anyone who watches football knows otherwise.
 

M4YON

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Who said Rashford was poor since the restart?
I don't know but they're not wrong, he had a few good moments in few of the games but the last few he was awful especially compared to how he's been the rest of the season.

The more pressing issue is who thinks Pulisic is even close to Rashford's level?
 

roonster09

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If Rashford has been consistently great this season then surely those reactionary fans would have given him a higher than 5.8 average rating, particularly his goals and assists are a standout this season.
Yes and Brandon Williams had as good season as Martial and better than Rashford going by caf ratings.
 

TheReligion

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Correct me if I've got this wrong but isn't it the amount of oppo fans on this place that has elevated it to arguably the best football forum on the net?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great place without but what i mean is, I can't imagine there's many if any other places that have (to pluck two randoms) Levekusen and Porto fans regularly posting in the same place, it's such diversity that attracted me to sign up in the first place as even the forums designed for all fans only really have supporters of British clubs.
I didn't say that wasn't the case. What I did say though is engaging in Wumming as an oppo fan isn't a good look despite how wound up you might get. Fair or not people will simply say "if you don't like it on our forum don't wind us up feck off" and as such you are held to a higher standard in that regard
 
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If Rashford has been consistently great this season then surely those reactionary fans would have given him a higher than 5.8 average rating, particularly his goals and assists are a standout this season.
Basing an opinion on player performance on Caf rating :lol: Might be the worst thing I've ever seen
 

-Supreme-

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Basing an opinion on player performance on Caf rating :lol: Might be the worst thing I've ever seen
Not quite, I formed my opinion based on watching his games this season but I soon realised Caf's rating can't be trusted when I looked at other players rating.
 

roonster09

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CAF's rating aside, he (along with Pulisic) will need to show us they can deliver over the course of the season.
Rashford has 32 goals + assists for Manutd this season i n 3273 mins which is around 36 games.

Overall he has 38 goals + assists in 3642 mins (Around 40 games) for club and country this season.

That's a very good season and would say showing his quality over the course of the season. Every attacker will have few bad games and period where he won't score.
 

-Supreme-

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Rashford has 32 goals + assists for Manutd this season i n 3273 mins which is around 36 games.

Overall he has 38 goals + assists in 3642 mins (Around 40 games) for club and country this season.

That's a very good season and would say showing his quality over the course of the season. Every attacker will have few bad games and period where he won't score.
His productivity is definitely a standout, but if we only use goals and assists to judge player's performance then we shouldn't need scouts when buying attacking players.
 

roonster09

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His productivity is definitely a standout, but if we only use goals and assists to judge player's performance then we shouldn't need scouts when buying attacking players.
Want straws?
 

Suedesi

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Agree. But I think Martial has the potential to be better than Werner and Havertz to be better than Bruno.
Martial is already better than Werner and has a much higher ceiling. Werner doesn't convince me at all.

I like Havertz and he's got potential, but currently Bruno is better.
 

Fridge chutney

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Keep in mind Rashford also played with a back injury for a couple of months. Ultimately that's why he was sidelined for a few months. That hampered his performance, which has overall been great this season despite what he was carrying.
 

Suedesi

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I've been impressed by Pulisic - I thought he was just another overrated "American", but so far he seems to be the real deal.

Rashford is a better player at the moment though.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Martial is already better than Werner and has a much higher ceiling. Werner doesn't convince me at all.

I like Havertz and he's got potential, but currently Bruno is better.
Curious as to this argument. Werner is younger, scored 35 goals with 10 assists this season, had better shot creation & pressing numbers, etc.

Obviously Werner will need time to adjust but it's not as if he's been a slouch in the CL or anything.
 

Suedesi

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Curious as to this argument. Werner is younger, scored 35 goals with 10 assists this season, had better shot creation & pressing numbers, etc.

Obviously Werner will need time to adjust but it's not as if he's been a slouch in the CL or anything.
Shot creation and pressing numbers when talking about a striker :houllier: The baseballification of football with meaningless stats is complete!!!

There's no reason to doubt his production numbers, I am just not sold on his overall quality. I think he's a versatile forward who can play many roles and in different systems proficiently. He is just not outstanding as a pure number 9 or as a winger. Doesn't strike me as very clinical in front of goal and doesn't have the dribbling technique and finesse of Martial.
 

Santoryo

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Curious as to this argument. Werner is younger, scored 35 goals with 10 assists this season, had better shot creation & pressing numbers, etc.

Obviously Werner will need time to adjust but it's not as if he's been a slouch in the CL or anything.
They're practically the same age. I mean 3 months younger isn't worth bringing up as an argument :lol:

While his goal scoring record is good, Martial is a better player and I'm confident next season will show that clearly with both playing in the PL.


His been banned yeah.
Would have loved to hear his responses though :lol:
Should have let him for a bit longer to see how he'd have tried to weasel his way out of his blatant plagiarism :lol:
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Shot creation and pressing numbers when talking about a striker :houllier: The baseballification of football with meaningless stats is complete!!!

There's no reason to doubt his production numbers, I am just not sold on his overall quality. I think he's a versatile forward who can play many roles and in different systems proficiently. He is just not outstanding as a pure number 9 or as a winger. Doesn't strike me as very clinical in front of goal and doesn't have the dribbling technique and finesse of Martial.
You think shot creation and pressing are meaningless? :houllier:

As for the rest,

% of shots on target: Werner 50.4%, Martial 48.1%
Goals per shot on target: Werner 0.42, Martial 0.45
Dribbles: Werner 66/110 (60%), Martial 64/104 (61.5%)
Players dribbled past: Werner 75, Martial 66

Not much in it either way I'd say. Certainly not enough where I'd say one player is definitively better than the other.

They're practically the same age. I mean 3 months younger isn't worth bringing up as an argument :lol:

While his goal scoring record is good, Martial is a better player and I'm confident next season will show that clearly with both playing in the PL.
Only included that about the age because I was confused about the statement that Martial has a higher ceiling as if he has further to grow. I guess I'm just surprised you are all convinced that Martial has a higher ceiling than a 35 goal / 10 assist season - feels like a big ask considering he has a spotty injury record.

We'll see! Personally I don't think there's much in it and I'm excited to see the direct comparison next year.
 

Mount's Goatieson

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Curious as to this argument. Werner is younger, scored 35 goals with 10 assists this season, had better shot creation & pressing numbers, etc.

Obviously Werner will need time to adjust but it's not as if he's been a slouch in the CL or anything.
Dude this is a United forum, just go with the flow or loose credibility for defending the club you support.
 

Suedesi

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You think shot creation and pressing are meaningless? :houllier:

As for the rest,

% of shots on target: Werner 50.4%, Martial 48.1%
Goals per shot on target: Werner 0.42, Martial 0.45
Dribbles: Werner 66/110 (60%), Martial 64/104 (61.5%)
Players dribbled past: Werner 75, Martial 66

Not much in it either way I'd say. Certainly not enough where I'd say one player is definitively better than the other.
I do. I trust my own eyes more than I trust dumb stats. For example he dribbled 110 times vs this other guy who dribbled 104 times is meaningless unless you analyze the context-
  • Are the opposition players they dribbled against of the same quality?
  • Did one dribble against Van Dijk and the other against Felix Uduokhai?
  • Was the dribble near the halfway line or in the penalty area?
  • Was the dribble at 0-0 to potentially unlock the game or at 5-0 when no one gave a rats arse anymore?
  • Was it a meaningful game or a dead rubber?
  • There are so many variables to judge a stat that without context, it's a meaningless number. So I don't tend to get wowed by stats. I trust my eyes.
To continue the qualitative discussion, Werner is neither a pure 9, nor a winger. I've seen him play against compact defenses and for German National team and he doesn't shine. He's good in Nageslmann's 2-striker system, but if you think Chelsea are buying the next Didier or Diego Costa you'll be sorely mistaken.

FYI Bayern passed on signing him for 30-40 million Euros, if you think Fat Frank has scouted him better than Bayern Munich then all the more power to you.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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I do. I trust my own eyes more than I trust dumb stats. For example he dribbled 110 times vs this other guy who dribbled 104 times is meaningless unless you analyze the context-
  • Are the opposition players they dribbled against of the same quality?
  • Did one dribble against Van Dijk and the other against Felix Uduokhai?
  • Was the dribble near the halfway line or in the penalty area?
  • Was the dribble at 0-0 to potentially unlock the game or at 5-0 when no one gave a rats arse anymore?
  • Was it a meaningful game or a dead rubber?
  • There are so many variables to judge a stat that without context, it's a meaningless number. So I don't tend to get wowed by stats. I trust my eyes.
To continue the qualitative discussion, Werner is neither a pure 9, nor a winger. I've seen him play against compact defenses and for German National team and he doesn't shine. He's good in Nageslmann's 2-striker system, but if you think Chelsea are buying the next Didier or Diego Costa you'll be sorely mistaken.

FYI Bayern passed on signing him for 30-40 million Euros, if you think Fat Frank has scouted him better than Bayern Munich then all the more power to you.
Well, this is more of a philosophical discussion than anything - personally I'm of the opinion that those variables, valid as they are, more or less even out over the course of an entire season (especially when teams are of comparative quality to the rest of the league; RBL and United both finishing 3rd for instance). Certainly citing a number like dribbles over even something like a 10 game stretch is silly; a full season and I'd tend to put stock in it. I'd argue that it's far more objective to look at these sorts of numbers instead of using an eye test, especially when one is understandably biased towards a particular player.

Also, he scored a penalty and got an assist over the two legs against one of the most compact sides in the world right now in Tottenham. If that's not shining, that's fine by me.

Of course I don't think he's the next Drogba or Costa; he's a completely different player. Inside left forward, best when he has license to roam anywhere in the final third, ideal at runs from deeper positions behind defenses thanks to his ludicrous pace. The closest comparison is probably Aubameyang right now as he's played as an inside left forward since Arteta has switched to 3-4-3. Auba is obviously better with his back to goal and is the more ruthless of the two, but Werner is more flexible positionally in that he can play well in the right channel and he's better out of possession.

And finally the Bayern deal - it's because they were trying to get Sane and weren't sure they could afford both. They agreed personal terms but didn't ever make a bid, Werner got fed up and signed a new deal. It's why his buyout clause had a strict expiration date that Chelsea had to meet - he just doesn't seem to appreciate any faffing about.
 

HerrLeinad

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Well, this is more of a philosophical discussion than anything - personally I'm of the opinion that those variables, valid as they are, more or less even out over the course of an entire season (especially when teams are of comparative quality to the rest of the league; RBL and United both finishing 3rd for instance). Certainly citing a number like dribbles over even something like a 10 game stretch is silly; a full season and I'd tend to put stock in it. I'd argue that it's far more objective to look at these sorts of numbers instead of using an eye test, especially when one is understandably biased towards a particular player.

Also, he scored a penalty and got an assist over the two legs against one of the most compact sides in the world right now in Tottenham. If that's not shining, that's fine by me.

Of course I don't think he's the next Drogba or Costa; he's a completely different player. Inside left forward, best when he has license to roam anywhere in the final third, ideal at runs from deeper positions behind defenses thanks to his ludicrous pace. The closest comparison is probably Aubameyang right now as he's played as an inside left forward since Arteta has switched to 3-4-3. Auba is obviously better with his back to goal and is the more ruthless of the two, but Werner is more flexible positionally in that he can play well in the right channel and he's better out of possession.

And finally the Bayern deal - it's because they were trying to get Sane and weren't sure they could afford both. They agreed personal terms but didn't ever make a bid, Werner got fed up and signed a new deal. It's why his buyout clause had a strict expiration date that Chelsea had to meet - he just doesn't seem to appreciate any faffing about.
The reason we didn't buy Werner is simple: Lewandowski.
With Lewandowski there is no chance for Werner as ST and he simply wouldn't be a proper fit for what we require on the left wing. So there were just too many doubts about him having an actual role with the players we have and on top of that Sane entered the picture.
It's honestly similar to Havertz now. We obviously rate Havertz highly (we've been following him since his youth days) but with Müller's resurgence there is no obvious open spot to justify going all-in with a transfer, especially in Corona times.
That even happened before because one of the reasons we didn't get De Bruyne was due to Müller/Götze already covering the AM option at the time and we still had James and Coutinho in the meantime but in the end Müller always ends up on top vs his competition so I can understand it that our club bosses want to avoid a Müller vs Havertz situation and then have a €100m bench player.