Kai Havertz

AltiUn

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Does he though? really?
Since RedCafe started using the phrase "generational talent" so freqently, we've seen more "generational talents" than in every other era combined :rolleyes:
 

hasanejaz88

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So a bit of plateauing really?
No I wouldn't say that, he's still only 20 man. His form since the winter break has improved as well and it was also in the second half of last season that he really played at a world class level.

There is no doubt in my mind that he's going to be a world class player but he obviously needs the right surroundings. Though he hasn't been getting stats, his overall play has still been impressive in the matches I have seen.

I think he would flourish in either Pep or Klopp teams, he has the class to break through. I do hope we get him because him with Bruno/Pogba will be a site to behold. Will really allow us to play a possession style of football.
 

B20

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Everything from the liverpudlian press in recent months has strongly indicated that fees for Havertz and Sancho are just too high for what we want to pay for players like that. So I would take the German reports with a strong grain of salt.

Werner though has been reported as already being in talks with Liverpool.
 

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Since RedCafe started using the phrase "generational talent" so freqently, we've seen more "generational talents" than in every other era combined :rolleyes:
People are using it instead of the term wonderkid or just a good talent.

A generational talent is Messi, Ronaldo, R9, Maradona, etc.

Mbappe or Sancho could be that talent, Perhaps even Greenwood or Cherki if they progress.

Havertz is good but he's never going to be that level, I think he could reach Ozil levels if the injuries don't hold him back.
 

do.ob

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Everything from the liverpudlian press in recent months has strongly indicated that fees for Havertz and Sancho are just too high for what we want to pay for players like that. So I would take the German reports with a strong grain of salt.

Werner though has been reported as already being in talks with Liverpool.
I don't even know if these claims actually exist in German media. There is no update in Transfermarkt's rumor thread for him, nor on Leverkusen's biggest fan forum. If there was local media reporting of a huge deal you would think they would pick up on it. I think this thread has been Fjörtoft'd
 

Zehner

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Apparently there are quite a few experts in here who actively watch Leverkusen matches ;)

Havertz' 19/20 is definitely worse than 18/19 but scoring stats are the worst way to define that. His hype last season primarily stemmed from his scorers so it doesn't really come as a surprise that he's now downplayed because they don't look as good. Thing is, despite his great stats, Havertz isn't about goal scoring or assisting like someone like Michael Ballack (who he's compared to quite often, wrongly IMO). He's extremely good at finding solutions in close spaces, has exceptional ball control and a really great first touch.

He was out of form throughout large proportions of this season. Not because he didn't score but because his overall game was pretty meh. Part of the reason for that is that Brandt left and nobody stepped up to fill that space. Havertz had nobody to combine and so our opponents could focus on him completely. You don't see that in the statistics but he's getting man marked in every single game. Often he's immediately surrounded by two or three players when he gets on the ball. Of course that won't be the case when he's playing for a better team with better individuals than us.

I also think he's nothing like Kaka. Kaka was a very direct player who was also great at longshots. Havertz is a completely different player. He rarely has good shots from outside the box. He's primarily a midfielder whose very good on the ball, exactly considering his height, but not a direct one. He likes to play short passes, combine out of pressing situations, etc., a bit like de Jong exemplarily. However, he's got exceptional game intelligence. His runs are great and his timing when he gets into the box is phenomenal. And he's got the composure and technique to be an excellent finisher. I agree that his passing isn't on Özil's level but IMO Mesut was the best of his generation in that regard. Havertz still plays great through passes, shifts the play brillantly from one wing to the other and is a very good short passer.

So what you get is essentially a Barca midfielder who's slightly less agile than Iniesta, de Jong and co. because of his height. To compensate that, he's extremely dangerous in the opponents box and will probably get you 20+ scorers a season quite constantly in a top team.
 

Kingslayer18

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Agreed on Lindelof, he's about as cowardly defender as I've seen at United. Bailly for all of his faults showed against Chelsea what's needed in there next to Maguire, if he can stay fit and kick on I think he'd be a pretty great answer to that problem. Of course, chances are injuries will make that impossible.

Solskjaer too might not be a good enough manager to take us to the top but I like what he's doing with regards to squad building, so that's a tricky one really. As ridiculous as it sounded at first, maybe a DOF role wouldn't be the worst idea if he keeps it up but proves to be a sub standard coach. Who knows.

And maybe Greenwood could be the answer to the Martial issue in a year or twos time? His talent is beyond question I think, and he seems to have a pretty good mentality. We've got enough holes in the squad to fill over the next 3 or 4 windows to give him some time to develop, in which time maybe Martial could even find some consistency?

Lots of questions still to be answered, but I like the way the squad is shaping up for the first time in a long long time, so that's a bit of a silver lining.
Lindelof doesn't convince and everytime he defends, I'm always waiting for a mistake to happen. We really should be in for Dayot Upamaceno this summer, he's super quick and is like a younger version of Kalidou Koulibaly and cheaper. His release clause is around 50-60m, which is decent for a quality young centreback. If not, go for Koulibaly himself and we'll get 3-4 good years from him.
 
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Adnan

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Lindelof doesn't convince and everytime he defends, I'm always waiting for a mistake to happen. We really should be in for Dayot Upamaceno this summer, he's super quick and is like a younger version of Kalidou Koulibaly and cheaper. His release clause is around 50-60m, which is decent for a quality young centreback. If not, go for Koulibaly himself and we'll get 3-4 good years from him.
The younger version of Koulibaly is the physically imposing Ibrahima Konate who is 3 inches taller, aerially superior and is only 20 years old. Konate is a better CB than Upamecano from what i've seen and we should target him rather than Koulibaly or Upamecano IMO. Maguire and Konate would be a frighteningly good CB pairing.
 

OleGunnar20

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Lindelof doesn't convince and everytime he defends, I'm always waiting for a mistake to happen. We really should be in for Dayot Upamaceno this summer, he's super quick and is like a younger version of Kalidou Koulibaly and cheaper. His release clause is around 50-60m, which is decent for a quality young centreback. If not, go for Koulibaly himself and we'll get 3-4 good years from him.
The younger version of Koulibaly is the physically imposing Ibrahima Konate who is 3 inches taller, aerially superior and is only 20 years old. Konate is a better CB than Upamecano from what i've seen and we should target him rather than Koulibaly or Upamecano IMO. Maguire and Konate would be a frighteningly good CB pairing.
Only seem to hear good things about them both but can't say I've watched any Bundesliga this year.

Upamecano is coming near to the end of his contract right? I've no idea what Konate would go for, but it seems either would be a good fit next to Maguire, just depends who we can get for a reasonable price.

I don't think Koulibaly would be a wise move at his age, unless it was far below the crazy valuations knocking around the last couple of windows.

We don't have much luck with those types of signings these days.
 

Adnan

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Only seem to hear good things about them both but can't say I've watched any Bundesliga this year.

Upamecano is coming near to the end of his contract right? I've no idea what Konate would go for, but it seems either would be a good fit next to Maguire, just depends who we can get for a reasonable price.

I don't think Koulibaly would be a wise move at his age, unless it was far below the crazy valuations knocking around the last couple of windows.

We don't have much luck with those types of signings these days.
I'd actually pay more and sign Konate if i'm honest. He's the commanding CB that ticks litterally every box and would be brilliant next to Maguire. Konate's imposing physique, pace and athleticism would be a game changer IMO.
 

Lyng

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Only seem to hear good things about them both but can't say I've watched any Bundesliga this year.

Upamecano is coming near to the end of his contract right? I've no idea what Konate would go for, but it seems either would be a good fit next to Maguire, just depends who we can get for a reasonable price.

I don't think Koulibaly would be a wise move at his age, unless it was far below the crazy valuations knocking around the last couple of windows.

We don't have much luck with those types of signings these days.
I thought Upamecano was Bayern bound?
 

OleGunnar20

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I'd actually pay more and sign Konate if i'm honest. He's the commanding CB that ticks litterally every box and would be brilliant next to Maguire. Konate's imposing physique, pace and athleticism would be a game changer IMO.
Fair enough.

To be holding down a spot in thay team at 20 is impressive enough, let alone outshining Upamecano. Doesn't feel like the type of guy we'll get hold of though unfortunately.

Either way, I hope we replace Lindelof as a starter sooner rather than later. Even a fit Bailly would be my preference if he can keep up anything like the performance against Chelsea, minus the step overs..
 

beingshe7don

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Not happening and is a luxury player in a way. 100m what's being quoted for him is just ridiculous. I would get Grealish and Partey for that sort of money.
 

Kingslayer18

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The younger version of Koulibaly is the physically imposing Ibrahima Konate who is 3 inches taller, aerially superior and is only 20 years old. Konate is a better CB than Upamecano from what i've seen and we should target him rather than Koulibaly or Upamecano IMO. Maguire and Konate would be a frighteningly good CB pairing.
Yes, Konate is taller and is probably considered the more purer defender, like say Smalling is relative to our centreback options but Upamecano is clearly the better overall player and defender. He's faster, better on the ball and considered the leader between the pair of them. He's the one most of the top clubs are after whereas Konate is seen as more raw and needs more time before playing at a top club. Upamecano and Koulibaly are practically the same height, what makes them good in the air is that they both possess a good leap and great timing. Upamecano will be world class whereas Konate will end up a good defender.
 

Kingslayer18

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Only seem to hear good things about them both but can't say I've watched any Bundesliga this year.

Upamecano is coming near to the end of his contract right? I've no idea what Konate would go for, but it seems either would be a good fit next to Maguire, just depends who we can get for a reasonable price.

I don't think Koulibaly would be a wise move at his age, unless it was far below the crazy valuations knocking around the last couple of windows.

We don't have much luck with those types of signings these days.
Upamecano only has a year left on his contract so Leipzig will have to sell him in the summer, as its looking like he's not going to renew. Upamecano is the better prospect between the two, would definitely go for him over Konate. We have a Konate type at the club already, Eric Bailly. With the amount of pressing in world football these days, having two centrebacks who are good on the ball makes a difference, as the centrebacks can split and play forward passes, to start play.

Koulibaly is likely to go for less than the crazy prices talked about. Napoli know this could be the last year they can sell him for a decent price so a fee for 60-70m could likely seal the deal. No-one is going to pay 100m for a 29 year old CB and they need the cash to regenerate their squad.
 

Adnan

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Yes, Konate is taller and is probably considered the more purer defender, like say Smalling is relative to our centreback options but Upamecano is clearly the better overall player and defender. He's faster, better on the ball and considered the leader between the pair of them. He's the one most of the top clubs are after whereas Konate is seen as more raw and needs more time before playing at a top club. Upamecano and Koulibaly are practically the same height, what makes them good in the air is that they both possess a good leap and great timing. Upamecano will be world class whereas Konate will end up a good defender.
I have to disagree here. Konate for me is the better all round CB. He's comfortably better in the air just as quick and the only thing Upacameno has edge on him is in passing which Konate is fast improving on. Konate is also better at bringing the ball out of defence. Last season Upamecano was injured for awhile and Konate was absolutely colossal in his absence. Konate is the closest CB to the profile of VVD I've seen not including Koulibaly.
 

LuckyScout78

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i think he is more of a Arsenal and Ozil type of player. If i could get Federico Chiesa or Havertz for that RW role. I think i would pick Chiesa over Havertz. Sancho is an ideal move for RW. But alternative if Sancho is not coming. I would be more than satisfy with Chiesa as new RW.

But its no doubt about Havertz football skills....more in the path of elegance. Like Ozil. Chiesa has a more hard working and aggresive mentality. I will prefer top consistent mentality and hard figthing work mentality. Like Bruno mentality. I see Havertz is lacking at this time. Like Ozil mood. Everything can change and improve. But i prefer someone which has it now.

And again. I will not be suprise if Havertz end up at Arsenal.
 

Zehner

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i think he is more of a Arsenal and Ozil type of player. If i could get Federico Chiesa or Havertz for that RW role. I think i would pick Chiesa over Havertz. Sancho is an ideal move for RW. But alternative if Sancho is not coming. I would be more than satisfy with Chiesa as new RW.

But its no doubt about Havertz football skills....more in the path of elegance. Like Ozil. Chiesa has a more hard working and aggresive mentality. I will prefer top consistent mentality and hard figthing work mentality. Like Bruno mentality. I see Havertz is lacking at this time. Like Ozil mood. Everything can change and improve. But i prefer someone which has it now.

And again. I will not be suprise if Havertz end up at Arsenal.
Havertz is not a RW. He's a CAM, CM or maybe even a false 9 but not a winger.
 

Raees

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i think he is more of a Arsenal and Ozil type of player. If i could get Federico Chiesa or Havertz for that RW role. I think i would pick Chiesa over Havertz. Sancho is an ideal move for RW. But alternative if Sancho is not coming. I would be more than satisfy with Chiesa as new RW.

But its no doubt about Havertz football skills....more in the path of elegance. Like Ozil. Chiesa has a more hard working and aggresive mentality. I will prefer top consistent mentality and hard figthing work mentality. Like Bruno mentality. I see Havertz is lacking at this time. Like Ozil mood. Everything can change and improve. But i prefer someone which has it now.

And again. I will not be suprise if Havertz end up at Arsenal.
Havertz is not a RW. He's a CAM, CM or maybe even a false 9 but not a winger.
I echo what @Zehner is saying. He is not a right winger, it is merely a flank which he gravitates towards at this stage of his career but he will not end up there in the long term. Being a winger would waste his talents big time.
 

DVG7

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Great player but would be surprised if we were actively pursuing him. Don't think there's any need for him given the resurgence of our midfield and its relatively young age.
 

KristianMackle

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Havertz is great but after getting Bruno, we should be looking at improving the wings. Sancho and or Adama would be great.
 

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Where is Havertz positioned and how does he play like? CAM and for the eye for a goal like a lampard or is he a bit of a support striker/false 9 player?
 

JJ12

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Where is Havertz positioned and how does he play like? CAM and for the eye for a goal like a lampard or is he a bit of a support striker/false 9 player?
With Volland out hes's been playing as striker. With Volland playing I assume he's a CAM/SS
 

Zehner

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With Volland out hes's been playing as striker. With Volland playing I assume he's a CAM/SS
He's very versatile. You can ask him to play pretty much any role in midfield/attack. Last season when he got those 17 goals, he was primarily playing as an 8/10 hybrid. His scorers are a bit misleading because apart from his scoring situations, he's more of a controlling midfielder type with very few possession losses and 90+% passing accuracy, completely unlike Gerrard or Lampard. But he has also played a role like Messi for us, where he nominally started as a right winger but totally abandoned his side and drifted to the center of the pitch, leaving the wing to the wing back.

However, since his finishing is among the best I've seen, his height and his very good shielding of the ball, he's also a great striker. Was thinking for a while that he could make an exceptional false 9 since there are many similarities to Messi in a tactical sense (movement in general, timing when entering the box etc). And there isn't really an abundance of great number 9s right now, so that could be perfect for him (and the national team too, by the way). But I don't think his eventual buyer will plan with him as a striker. Most likely as a 10 or 8.
 

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With Volland out hes's been playing as striker. With Volland playing I assume he's a CAM/SS
Wonder why we aren't linked to him, is he too high fantasyland? A player that can cover ST, RM, SS, CAM & CM and is left footed is arguably a player that seems likes he adds depth to our squad by covering weaknesses in our squad that it has.

I've only seen him a very few times but I like how he has the eye for goals, being a lanky player with the ability to play deep, wide and forward.

1. Rashford- Havertz - Greenwood ( Plays false 9)

2. Rashford- Martial- Havertz (plays RM)

3. Rashford- Havertz (352 left foot striker partnership cover for Greenwood)

4. Rashford- Martial- Greenwood
- Havertz
(Cover for Bruno)

5. Also covers possibly for Pogba if he ever decides to leave in centre midfield.

Seems a player that you can get a lot of tactical use out of.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Probably not. Considering they're reluctant to even pay Werner's clause.
I wouldn't read too much into that story. They can easily afford to pay it. The PL prize money alone would cover it. They probably know he wants them and them alone so they can afford to play hardball.
 

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Looks like clubs are beginning to say that they aren’t paying the big fees. I hope this reboots the transfer market values
 

Adam-Utd

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Looks like clubs are beginning to say that they aren’t paying the big fees. I hope this reboots the transfer market values
Bayern rarely pay big money anyway, they wait for their targets to run down the contract then take them for a steal.
 

Adam-Utd

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That’s why they paid €80+m for an injured CB
Hence the rarely smart ass.

who was their last big purchase before that?

they generally never spend over 50m on a single player.
 

Bondi77

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We have Bruno in the AM role and possibly alternate him with Pogba so forget about even getting Grealish never mind spending 60mil on Havertz.
Ole has stated that Axel is the future of Utd so forget about any money being spent on the back four as well.
I think we are going to be spending less money in the future and more reliance is going to be put on the youngsters coming through so that probably signals the end of the United Stand :lol:
Sometimes when I read these threads I think they must relate to a new European Fantasy Premier League that I have not seen yet because in reality there is not a chance in hell they are going to happen.
 

davidmichael

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Looks to be a really good player but he’s a 10 or support striker and we’ve already got Fernandes in that role not to mention Pogba can play there as well as Lingard, Pereira, Mata and Gomes so Havertz is far from a priority signing regardless of how good he is whereas Sancho is seeing as we don’t have a single right sided attacker other than Chong who’s third or fourth choice currently.
 

SAFMUTD

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Bayern rarely pay big money anyway, they wait for their targets to run down the contract then take them for a steal.
I agree they don’t spend big on bundesliga players since they practically bully those teams and most germans players dream to play from Bayern, and since most of the buys come from there I understand why many people have that impression.

But for players from abroad theyre pretty much like any club, they have to open the check boon to get players like Lucas Hernandez, Tolisso, Javi Martinez, Vidal, Pavard, Renato Sanches, Ribery, etc.