Kevin De Bruyne

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Side note: why does it have to be limited to CL runs?

These conversations do the like of Scholes and Keane a disservice... Yes they had CL runs but the bulk of their resume is domestic dominance, which gets discounted/ignored in these conversations for annoying reasons. If you're an all time great, domestic dominance should be a given (are you listening Zidane????)
I think it depends on where the topic is being taken. If you're talking about the very top echelon, then everything is a prerequisite (domestic dominance, amassing huge numbers against fodder, etc., etc.) but the defining moments are the biggest games on the biggest stages.

When we think of domestic legends, it usually in relation to what they did in "big <insert>" games rather than smashing the remainder of the league to smithereens. Those plaudits come more readily when the player in question proves time and again that they are king of the hill and either peerless or peered only with those players who can hang, and do the very same. Another truth with regards to these discussions is the big games have multipliers on them that the "little" ones simply cannot.

Giggs and Gerrard share a similarity in that they had most of their best games against the higher profile opponents whilst not being as stellar against smaller foes - Giggs was a legendary performer in the CL against the very best FB's in the world (his games against Zanetti being particularly legion), but he wasn't outputting at that rate so often in lower level games. Gerrard's reputation is more due to what he did in big games (not against us, and Keane!), but against others of a certain stock, or even being 'the man' when needed against those smaller fry.

If you're a bona fide performer in the CL, it means you are the best of the best in club football, so obviously that is the platinum standard. If you were to tier it, the big <insert> games in domestic leagues would be gold, middling games silver and the fodderish stuff bronze. There's a few famed stories about some players of elite standing who didn't/couldn't get up for the bronze and silver stuff, but come the gold or platinum, they would be the best players on the pitch, bar none. So it's a web within a web, but domestic football has more caveats than the other stuff, as every top player is trying their utmost at the latter stages of the CL, if not for the trophy itself, then for the personal glory and esteem performing in those latter stages does to a career and legacy.

All games are to be enjoyed by fans and performances lauded, but there is no question at all regarding the clear divides between what great is in terms of relativity. Your post is correct in that the body of work for some players seems to just be washed away or recalled selectively. Not thinking too deeply about this, but Keane is still the top of the totem as the most dominant from fodder (bronze) through to the best there is/was in club football as far as the PL goes. C.Ronaldo too. It's interesting to see how Lampard is played down in this regard despite being another whose club career is virtually flawless in terms of consistency 'across the realms'.
 

noelyman

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This thread has gone into overdrive based on a single game, vs Newcastle…

De Bruyne has admittedly a great performance and is all of a sudden, the second coming of Lothar Matthäus.
Glad it's not just me that thought that.
 

Son

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De Bruyne is one of the greatest midfielders of all time in reality. He’s maybe been the best of all the Prem years and I’m a massive Roy Keane fan but KDB at times is just ridiculous.

What’s even more ridiculous is City playing this season in first gear for half the year and are pretty much level at the top even without their best player.

It’s so hard to compete for any side on the planet currently and you just fully expect them to go and easily win the league now as well as been big favourites for the champions league yet again if they come into form.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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This thread has gone into overdrive based on a single game, vs Newcastle…

De Bruyne has admittedly a great performance and is all of a sudden, the second coming of Lothar Matthäus.
It's just appreciation. I don't think De Bruyne is necessarily better than Matthaus but he's in the category of greatest midfielders. One of the best ever midfielders in arguably the best league in the world during his time.

De Bruyne in Ballon D'Or ranking since 2017 has been:

2017: 4th best midfielder in the world
2018: 2nd best midfielder
2019: 3rd best midfielder
2021: 3rd best midfielder
2022: Best midfielder
2023: Best midfielder

He was player of the year in Germany, and then player of the year twice in England. He was named in Uefa's team of the decade. He's been in Fifa's team of the year 3 times, Uefa's team 3 times, ESM 5 times, IFFHS's team 6 times. Premier League team of the year 5 times.

When players are injured/retired and they come back, it always leads to appreciation. Like remember when Scholes came back and played a lot of nice, short passes back in 2012, it was overdrive as well.
 

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How is De Bruyne a midfielder? Heck of a player, but he plays pretty much as a wide midfielder-forward hybrid. Same story for Gerrard and Lampard. Gerrard played his best football as a 10 behind Torres, So did Lampard.

Midfielders are Keane, Scholes, Xavi, Alonso, Pirlo, Toure -of this ilk. Even Iniesta was not a traditional midfielder per se.
 

Righteous Steps

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Not really people pretty much shit on Gerrard and make him sound way less impressive than he actually was.

In saying that KBD is like Gerrard with the football intelligence of Scholes. Gerrard could pretty much do anything KDB can but his decision making and need to be the hero made him a bit inefficient at times, KDB has none of those issues.
How does KDB have the football intelligence of Scholes? In comparison to Gerrard when he is dispossessed and gives the ball away just as much as Gerrard did.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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How is De Bruyne a midfielder? Heck of a player, but he plays pretty much as a wide midfielder-forward hybrid. Same story for Gerrard and Lampard. Gerrard played his best football as a 10 behind Torres, So did Lampard.

Midfielders are Keane, Scholes, Xavi, Alonso, Pirlo, Toure -of this ilk. Even Iniesta was not a traditional midfielder per se.
I would say he's still a midfielder and does a lot more work off the ball than a lot of players that would have been considered number 10s over the years. His defensive stats are in line with a lot of other midfielders.

Depends on your definition but John Terry and Roberto Carlos are both still 'defenders', Roberto Firmino, Mo Salah and Erling Haaland are all still 'forwards', despite having completely different roles etc. De Bruyne's role is very different to Makelele but still in the same loose middle position, just with different tasks. If you want to break it down and only compare defensive and attacking minded then yeah fair enough.
 

MJay

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Surely Kante is in the top 5, maybe top 3. Outrageously good player, pretty sure managers would pick him above all the rest as 1st pick.
 

Righteous Steps

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This thread has gone into overdrive based on a single game, vs Newcastle…

De Bruyne has admittedly a great performance and is all of a sudden, the second coming of Lothar Matthäus.
It’s ridiculous you’re one of the best posters on here so I’m glad you notice it also, people trying to act as if De Bruyne is a mix of Scholes and Gerrard for some reason.

De Bruyne is exactly like Gerrard just having the benefit of playing in a world class team world class manager and structure for the majority of his PL years, De Bruyne is 06-10 Gerrard, even down to him having a lot of his best games from the right.

Hs isn’t some supreme Xavi or Scholes like playmaker, he loses the ball far much more, he actually tries the killer ball far much more also. De Bruyne for the last couple years before this season has always been top of the lists of players who give up possession the most alongside TAA and Bruno, that points to what type of player he is.

Because he plays under Guardiola you have people talking about his intelligence and playmaking as if he is Xavi, he is a different player to the likes of Scholes and I would say if you’re actually looking for a player who had the balance of being an elite playmaker and decisive final third player then the closest player to that template is someone who actually played for the same team as he did in Yaya Toure.

Toure was the player who combined the both, high amount of passes, 90% passing accuracy while also scoring and assisting 15+ goals and assists a season, not De Bruyne who is mostly and strictly an elite final third player.
 

lex talionis

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This thread has gone into overdrive based on a single game, vs Newcastle…

De Bruyne has admittedly a great performance and is all of a sudden, the second coming of Lothar Matthäus.
Good point. Kevin DeBruyne was a nobody until yesterday.
 

Righteous Steps

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Scholes was my favourite player but hard to say what he was better at. Maybe better at slowing a game down from deeper areas when he was older at a push. De Bruyne has all the best of Scholes and then higher workrate, better dribbler, more driving through midfield at pace, better crosses and set pieces.
Hs doesn’t have all the best of Scholes, if we’re talking playmaking and pass selection, he is better than everything you say apart from that and therefore is a better attacking midfielder.

Im not knocking De Bruyne I would say he is probably 1 midfielder for me in PL history but let’s not paint him as something he is not.
 

Righteous Steps

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Good point. Kevin DeBruyne was a nobody until yesterday.
No but people are rewriting his game, what makes De Bruyne more intelligent than Lampard for example? I don’t get how you can even make that argument, he is a better player due to more technical ability but he isn’t a Lampard and Xavi/Pirlo type in one player like some are making it seem.

All his best work is predominately in the final third creating and scoring and making sublime passes.
 

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World class player who would have gotten a lot more appreciation if he played for a proper club. Same as David Silva and Kun Aguero before him.
 

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How does KDB have the football intelligence of Scholes? In comparison to Gerrard when he is dispossessed and gives the ball away just as much as Gerrard did.
A player like De Bruyne will always get dispossessed and give the ball away more than Scholes because he carries the ball more and tries more final passes. A lot of KDB’s passes are also ground crosses which can be low percentage.

I always feel like KDB makes the right decisions, that is the difference between him and Gerrard in my opinion. Maybe Scholes level intelligence is a reach but KDB is a really smart player.
 

Hammondo

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A player like De Bruyne will always get dispossessed and give the ball away more than Scholes because he carries the ball more and tries more final passes. A lot of KDB’s passes are also ground crosses which can be low percentage.

I always feel like KDB makes the right decisions, that is the difference between him and Gerrard in my opinion. Maybe Scholes level intelligence is a reach but KDB is a really smart player.
He's a lot more technical than Gerrard was as well.
 

Hernandez - BFA

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If we classify midfielders as attacking midfielders, center midfielders and defensive midfielders - then I don't think its even debatable that he doesn't belong in the top 3 - and even then, by the end of his career - could be number 1.
 

Jeppers7

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People don’t understand the brilliance of Scholes, not that they don’t think he was brilliant…but they don’t know what was brilliant.

KDB might be able to pull off the passes that Scholes did…but he didn’t have the pictures in the brain that Scholes had before he’d even received the ball. Scholes’s one touch play when pressed, understanding of tempo and ability to control the game were on another level…but they aren’t even similar players. KDB is more of a world class Bruno.

Maybe not obvious to the eye….but the amount of people who trained with Scholes who say he’s the best player they’ve seen, because they couldn’t get near him.

KDB is an unbelievable player but people saying he could do everything Scholes could, that’s not true at all unless you keep football as basic as kick ball.
 

GMok

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It’s ridiculous you’re one of the best posters on here so I’m glad you notice it also, people trying to act as if De Bruyne is a mix of Scholes and Gerrard for some reason.

De Bruyne is exactly like Gerrard just having the benefit of playing in a world class team world class manager and structure for the majority of his PL years, De Bruyne is 06-10 Gerrard, even down to him having a lot of his best games from the right.

Hs isn’t some supreme Xavi or Scholes like playmaker, he loses the ball far much more, he actually tries the killer ball far much more also. De Bruyne for the last couple years before this season has always been top of the lists of players who give up possession the most alongside TAA and Bruno, that points to what type of player he is.

Because he plays under Guardiola you have people talking about his intelligence and playmaking as if he is Xavi, he is a different player to the likes of Scholes and I would say if you’re actually looking for a player who had the balance of being an elite playmaker and decisive final third player then the closest player to that template is someone who actually played for the same team as he did in Yaya Toure.


Toure was the player who combined the both, high amount of passes, 90% passing accuracy while also scoring and assisting 15+ goals and assists a season, not De Bruyne who is mostly and strictly an elite final third player.
Brilliantly summed up. Sometimes I feel Redcafe overhypes an attacking player on their goals/assists rather than overall play. De Bruyne is a brilliant attacking player, but he has his flaws too. Also, he plays in the most well-rounded squad in PL history under one of the greatest managers of the game.

Also, fully agree on your assessment of Toure.
 

Righteous Steps

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He's a lot more technical than Gerrard was as well.
He isn’t, he has a similar style, he might be a marginally better dribbler than Gerrard and even that’s arguable, everything else is pretty close from passing shooting and the similar rigid yet technical mechanism when playing football.
 

Righteous Steps

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A player like De Bruyne will always get dispossessed and give the ball away more than Scholes because he carries the ball more and tries more final passes. A lot of KDB’s passes are also ground crosses which can be low percentage.

I always feel like KDB makes the right decisions, that is the difference between him and Gerrard in my opinion. Maybe Scholes level intelligence is a reach but KDB is a really smart player.
It’s not actually about how many time he gets dispossessed under pressure it’s more him always trying to play a killer pass and make things happen, in terms of intelligence he suffers(if you could say suffer) from the exact same thing Gerrard did, that’s why he consistently tops the list for midfielders who give the ball away.

All the players we talk about our intelligent, people only really talk about intelligence in terms of deep lying playmakers or Dms, but it takes intelligence to always be in the right space to score a goal or make an assist, it’s just a different type of intelligence.
 

devaneios

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He isn’t, he has a similar style, he might be a marginally better dribbler than Gerrard and even that’s arguable, everything else is pretty close from passing shooting and the similar rigid yet technical mechanism when playing football.
Gerrard's passing technique wasn't anywhere near De Bruyne's. Maybe he had the same range in his passes, but the precision, curve, how soft the ball find the receiver foot(many times Gerrard's passes basically exploded at the receiver)...it's just another level.
 

erikcred

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He's a lot more technical than Gerrard was as well.
All that's well and good. Doesn't have a literal cup final named after him.

KDB is the best midfielder in the world playing in the best and most expensive team in the world and coached by the best manager in the world. For me, it's the "do city leave you cold" situation all over again.
 

Righteous Steps

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Gerrard's passing technique wasn't anywhere near De Bruyne's. Maybe he had the same range in his passes, but the precision, curve, how soft the ball find the receiver foot(many times Gerrard's passes basically exploded at the receiver)...it's just another level.
Gerrard had more range but De Bruyne is probably the best final third, passer in PL history.

But as to your other point, I think thats intentional Alonso was the same, he fired low drilled passes to beat the press, that’s literally the basis of what the rondo is, and City do it all the time themselves, even yesterday how many times did you see them bounce and fire the ball at each other between a few yards, only for other player to expertly give the ball back with one touch and the quickness and veracity of the passes lead to a shot on goal.

Go back to the Barcelona teams and you see the same, when pressed sometimes Busquets Xavi and co would fire the ball to each other between a few yards to evade the press, passing it softer wouldn’t lead to the same results.
 

Righteous Steps

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All that's well and good. Doesn't have a literal cup final named after him.

KDB is the best midfielder in the world playing in the best and most expensive team in the world and coached by the best manager in the world. For me, it's the "do city leave you cold" situation all over again.
To be fair he was already incredible at Wolfsburg having one of the best seasons by an AM ever in that league, but that point is still a valid one when you’re comparing him to players who never had the consistency of playing for a top 1-2 team every season and arguably the best coach of all time also.
 

devaneios

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Gerrard had more range but De Bruyne is probably the best final third, passer in PL history.

But as to your other point, I think thats intentional Alonso was the same, he fired low drilled passes to beat the press, that’s literally the basis of what the rondo is, and City do it all the time themselves, even yesterday how many times did you see them bounce and fire the ball at each other between a few yards, only for other player to expertly give the ball back with one touch and the quickness and veracity of the passes lead to a shot on goal.

Go back to the Barcelona teams and you see the same, when pressed sometimes Busquets Xavi and co would fire the ball to each other between a few yards to evade the press, passing it softer wouldn’t lead to the same results.
This happening in quick short passing exchanges under pressure is understandable; but with Gerrard, it lacked softness even in long passes and through balls when he's free of pressure.

De Bruyne passes have a lot of weight in them too, but somehow they reach the other player at the exact speed for him to control smoothly.
 

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Dortmund are the real ones to think of 'what if' because they would've signed De Bruyne as Gotze's replacement had Mourinho not cancelled the deal right at the end (only to sell him 6 months later).

No one could have predicted Gotze's injury issues. Dortmund ended up signing Mhikitaryan.

The only reason I can't love De Bruyne as a player, apart from being a dirty City player obviously, is that at one time out was close between him and Ozil, one of my favorite players, as the best playmaker. He's so far out gone that comparison now it's sad to think there was one in there past.
I think after the 2015 season Bayern were discussing with him to wait for 12months but City came with a huge offer
 

Hammondo

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He isn’t, he has a similar style, he might be a marginally better dribbler than Gerrard and even that’s arguable, everything else is pretty close from passing shooting and the similar rigid yet technical mechanism when playing football.
Better touch, close control, general moving with the ball, and better range of passing techniques.
 

Righteous Steps

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Better touch, close control, general moving with the ball, and better range of passing techniques.
What pass does De Bruyne make that Gerrard hasn’t numerous times? Not sure about the touch either but I don’t think either are Iniesta or Toure like with their touch and close control, I think any technical differences are marginal, what isn’t is the situations they played under, manager and teams, and their utilisation.