Kolarov - "Football fans know nothing about football..."

Synco

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Learning a lot about football tactics should not be beyond the average intellect. You also don't need to necessarily go through official systems to do so in terms of the theory, just as most people - if the interest is there - should be intellectually capable of teaching themselves classical music theory or jazz harmony from various resources and eventually getting to a very good standard as musician, without needing to go to a prestigious conservatory. It might be tougher, or less efficient learning process but if you put in the work it can be done for most, and the tactics used in football or any sport really is a lot simpler than that. we're not talking about complex physics that will be beyond the intellect of a significant percentage of the population here.

If the sport were impenetrable to the point only seasoned practioners could understand what was going on, then it would never have gained worldwide popularity.

In that sense Kolarov is talking nonsense and i'd imagine there is an element of self-serving arrogance in there. It's also obviously true that someone that actually played to a high standard will have a more in-depth perspective on the nuances of many things than a mere spectator/lifelong fan, and that becoming well versed in the tactics or technical aspects of football doesn't mean you can make it as a manager or coach.
Picking up on your jazz example, I agree that a layperson can go quite far. But as far as I can tell, the gap between the perceptive abilities of good laymen and true elite musicians is enormous. The in-depth understanding of harmony, rhythm, form, interplay, etc., and the ability to understand on the spot how all of this interacts in a given musical situation. I'm rather sure this gap exists in classical music as well, especially when thinking of highly skilled composers and conductors, and their level of complex analytical hearing.

I can't really say if that's a fitting analogy for contemporary football & the ability to analyze situations and larger tactical developments inside a game. But if it was, it would point to a different conclusion, imo.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Picking up on your jazz example, I agree that a layperson can go quite far. But as far as I can tell, the gap between the perceptive abilities of good laymen and true elite musicians is enormous. The in-depth understanding of harmony, rhythm, form, interplay, etc., and the ability to understand on the spot how all of this interacts in a given musical situation. I'm rather sure this gap exists in classical music as well, especially when thinking of highly skilled composers and conductors, and their level of complex analytical hearing.

I can't really say if that's a fitting analogy for contemporary football & the ability to analyze situations and larger tactical developments inside a game. But if it was, it would point to a different conclusion, imo.
A great number of the jazz greats did not learn in a formal environment, that's only a more recent development. Classical definitely rarer, but it can easily be done with the resources available over the past couple of decades to study. Besides i wasn't making the argument that the average layman can expect to attain as much kowledge/ability as the greatest managers via the typical route a fan goes through in learning tactics etc, more that you can learn enough to make a statement like Kolarov's pretty silly.
 

Synco

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A great number of the jazz greats did not learn in a formal environment, that's only a more recent development. Classical definitely rarer, but it can easily be done with the resources available over the past couple of decades to study. Besides i wasn't making the argument that the average layman can expect to attain as much kowledge/ability as the greatest managers via the typical route a fan goes through in learning tactics etc, more that you can learn enough to make a statement like Kolarov's pretty silly.
I don't necessarily mean formal education, but simply the level at which great jazz players are able to hear what's going on when things get complex and/or super fast. (I have to extrapolate there, not that I ever met Chick Corea or something.) But I also guess many of those not formally educated greats will have learned in other ways from really good musicians during their earlier years.
Besides i wasn't making the argument that the average layman can expect to attain as much kowledge/ability as the greatest managers via the typical route a fan goes through in learning tactics etc, more that you can learn enough to make a statement like Kolarov's pretty silly.
The question for me is how much that extra knowledge contributes to the ability to analyze situations accurately and reliably. But yes, if someone dedicates enough time to actually learn that stuff, he or she can probably gain a good understanding of the fundamentals. (Although imo an experienced teacher makes a world of difference when it comes to avoiding misconceptions.)

But I don't think Kolarov's quote is really about the minority of fans who actually study tactics up to a respectable level. It's probably more about the vast majority that doesn't, but is quick to criticize players and coaches for their presumed failures.
 

P0GBA

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I think the one area fans have more knowledge than the managers is that they are able to remember a players previous performances under another manager. An example of this is Pep picking Mahrez to take the penalty against Liverpool which would have won the game. Many fans would have known that that was the fifth penalty Mahrez had missed in less that two seasons but Pep obviously doesn't watch Leicester games and did not seem to know this.

If for Example Allegri took over Man United next week your average fan is more likely to know basic tactical things like which players should be taking free kicks and penalties and who our best players are in each position. No-one is saying that the fans have a better tactical knowledge, but if a fan has watched every United game for the past decade or more it must surely give them a superior knowledge of the team over a manager who comes from abroad and has only seen a small number of United games. No-one is doubting that the managers overall knowledge of tactics are at a much higher level than that of the fans.
 

Sky1981

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He's correct to a tee.

Most of us can spot good acting, watch thousands of movies but can't act, can't even teach actors how to act, how to train, how to conditions actors to acting.

Acting is just a very simple thing, you act. But between community acting and oscar caliber acting there's a millions of small little things and also a good chunk of theory crafting on how to train actors to act better.

Replace acting with any other things in life, cooking, swimming, chess, including football.

It's like playing pre 2005 fm. Try tweaking all the tactics without preset help and multiple it factors of tens in real life.

Where to pass, offensive triangle, lateral line, positioning, where to run, show weaker foot, which players covers who and why, which minutes is the best for substitutions, how do you develop training to improve specific skill, which diet is good for away game, team talk, anxiety, etc.

You can't just wing it. Making mock formations is easy, any kids and adults can do that. But changing the system and nuance of the game is another.

Between barcelona tiki taka and mourinho chelsea they on paper plays the same 433 or 451 but the result is night and day. Formations is only the tip of the iceberg in managerial
 

Rozay

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I think the one area fans have more knowledge than the managers is that they are able to remember a players previous performances under another manager. An example of this is Pep picking Mahrez to take the penalty against Liverpool which would have won the game. Many fans would have known that that was the fifth penalty Mahrez had missed in less that two seasons but Pep obviously doesn't watch Leicester games and did not seem to know this.

If for Example Allegri took over Man United next week your average fan is more likely to know basic tactical things like which players should be taking free kicks and penalties and who our best players are in each position. No-one is saying that the fans have a better tactical knowledge, but if a fan has watched every United game for the past decade or more it must surely give them a superior knowledge of the team over a manager who comes from abroad and has only seen a small number of United games. No-one is doubting that the managers overall knowledge of tactics are at a much higher level than that of the fans.
Pep works with Mahrez every day. He’s not going to care about a penalty from a year ago. That is as far as a fan can base their insight, but not the manager. Nothing we see on a weekly basis can supersede the insight they have jnto their own players.
 

P0GBA

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Pep works with Mahrez every day. He’s not going to care about a penalty from a year ago. That is as far as a fan can base their insight, but not the manager. Nothing we see on a weekly basis can supersede the insight they have jnto their own players.
Yes but taking a good penalty in training is different to doing it in one of your most important games of the season in front of 60,000 people. If Pep had watched every Leicester game the previous season I am certain he would not have picked Mahrez to take the penalty.
 
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Rozay

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Yes but taking a good penalty in training is different to doing it in one of your most important games of the season in front of 60,000 people. If Pep had watched every Leicester game the previous season I am certain he would not have picked Mahrez to take the penalty.
No you’re right, it isn’t. The mentality and courage of the person is probably more relevant. Guess who is in a great position to be able to assess that? Pep! There is no need for Pep to go and look back at pens from a year or more before for a player and person he works with daily.
 

Pep's Suit

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Pep works with Mahrez every day. He’s not going to care about a penalty from a year ago. That is as far as a fan can base their insight, but not the manager. Nothing we see on a weekly basis can supersede the insight they have jnto their own players.
But that also means there's human factor involved. Like when managers constantly pick certain players who then 'never' perform. Kolarov was always slow and positionally poor but then Pep would start him anyway.