La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Sjor Bepo/anant vs Crappycraperson

[Marty1968]

Please remember that players should only be judged by their performances in their assigned leagues for this draft (not career peak)

vs

Team Sjor/anant.............................................................vs..........................................................Team Crappy

 

[Marty1968]

Team Sjor Bepo/anant Tactics

Tactics
Wont make the mistake like in the last draft when i thought it would be easier to describe my tactics with drawing parallels to the teams that play in similar way. The plan is to play quick, direct counter-attack football and when i say direct i dont mean hoof it towards Kluivert and win the second ball, its going to counter-attacking football through combination play, short passes and off the ball movement. When defending the team will sit deep, allow the opponent to pass it around in his own half but the second they move over the half line they will face a constant pressure. All of our players excelled in the counter-attacking system and they are comfortable at what they need to do.


Defence
In goal we have Angelo Peruzzi that won almost everything he could at club level, the only thing missing is Cup winners cup medal and he probably never played in that competition. Two times in ESM Team of the Year, won Guerin d'Oro(awarded to the player in Serie A with at least 19 games played, which has obtained the best average-media rating.) and was also Serie A Goalkeeper of the Year 3 times.
The right side of defence we have well drilled pair of Atletico defenders that together won Copa del Rey, Europa League and La Liga tittle that is probably the biggest upset in last 10-15 years + in that same season they also played in Champions League final! But enough of achievements, on the right-back position we haveJuanfran and next to him is the guy who i rate as the best defender in the world for the last 3, 4 season, Diego Godin. The whole success of that Atletico team is based around the defensive performances and this guy is the glue that holds everything in place. Dominated the league and european competitions with Miranda and now is dominating with the likes of Savic and Gimenez. This season they only conceded 12 goals in LaLiga, 12 goals!
On the left side of defence we have one great and most likely one future great. Partnering Diego Godin will be the big Jaap Stam. With them two in the mix i would almost be comfortable against the MSN trio!
On the left-back position is the best left-back in the world, when he actually plays there! Probably the most complete player in the world right now, can play at fullback, in midfield and even in the middle of defence,David Alaba. He proved himself in Jupp Heynckes counter-attacking machine at the left-back position. They won the treble that year and most importantly for this draft, they won every league campaign since. Currently on 3 in a row with 4 in the bag.....


Midfield
In the engine room we have two guys that made their name in the 2 counter-attacking sides. Gundogan with Jurgen Klopp rock and roll Dortmund side and Javi Martinez like his teammate Alaba with Jupp Heynckes Bayern side that dominated everyone in 13/14 season. Its a very natural partnership that should work perfectly. Javi is a major upgrade on Gundo's Dortmund partner Bender and Gundo will offer everything you need next to a holding midfielder. Energetic box2box player who is so good on the ball that can easily play as a playmaker of the team. Lets not forget how good Gundo was before the injury, every team in Europe wanted him in their squad.
In front of this two we have a wild one, the genius, prince clown of England - Paul Gascoigne. We will go in-depth on this particular topic later* but lets just say that he fits the bill perfectly. A very direct player who has a little bit of everything. Great passing range, great engine, can go past people like they are not there and gives our team a little bit of magic and x factor.
* https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-liga-serie-a-bundesliga-draft.415228/page-46#post-18937997
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-liga-serie-a-bundesliga-draft.415228/page-46#post-18938000
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-liga-serie-a-bundesliga-draft.415228/page-46#post-18938008
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/la-liga-serie-a-bundesliga-draft.415228/page-46#post-18938021


Attack
We dont want Kluivert to be lonely here so we will discuss our wingers here even though they belong to the midfield section.
On the right we have the underrated hero of the great Juventus side, Mauro Camoranesi. A proper workhorse who uses the ball very well, has great movement and is also capable of some great things. Our balance player who will give the freedom to Gazza and Futre. Speaking of the latter one, what a player! Was second in the Balon d'Or in 1987 and did up Atletico to another level. They performances in the league improved greatly and they also won back to back Copa del Reys. A highly talented and creative winger whose style initially drew comparisons with Diego Maradona. Futre possessed explosive acceleration as well as excellent technical ability.
And up front we have Patrick Kluivert who scored 90 goals in 182 games for Barca and he won the league back in the 98/99 season. If the goal tally is not impressive to you then you should check the numbers back then in LaLiga, strikers didnt score 40 goals per season like they do now. For example Ronaldo was the leading scored in 03/04 with 24 goals while Diego Tristan achieved the same with only 20 goals in 01/02 season. He was a tall player with a very elegant touch and good technical abilities. Kluivert also utilised his height, power, and strong physique to dominate aerial balls and was considered to possess one of the best headers in the contemporary game which is going to be very useful against two short cb in opponents team.

 

[Marty1968]

Team Crappycraperson Tactics

Match tactics

Attack - The team is set up up around Totti, who gets to play his peak false 9 role. In 2006/7 season for Roma he showed that he is capable of scoring goals as a striker and dropping deep and orchestrating play. He is well complemented by Dejan Savicevic on right and Bale on left. Bale, will play the role of a wing forward, who will look to provide width out wide and also forward presence when Totti vacates that space.Dejan, on the other hand, will look to to create from the right, cutting in and linking up with attackers and midfielders.

Midfield - Popescu will sit in front of defense and look to play from the deep, a role he played at Barca. Duo of Jeremies and Kroos will provide the legs in the midfield with former playing a more defensive minded role, freeing up Kroos to play his peak role from Bayern. Kroos will be the CM to link up with Totti and other attackers, on occasions popping up around the box.

Defense - 2 proper full backs in Grosso and Jorginho. Presence of Popescu in front of defense will allow the full backs to venture forward when needed, given he can slide into CB role if required. Jorginho especially is critical on right, overlapping Savicevic. They should complement each other well to be a force. Central defense has 2 dependable center backs from 90s in Kuffour and Cordorba. Kuffor was a mainstay in Bayern's defense for a decade and is widely acknowledged as Ghana's best player ever. Cordoba was a reliable member in Inter's defense for a decade as well. Canizares, one of the best keeper in late 90s and early 00s, is the final wall of the defense.

------------------------------------------

La Liga - Canizares, Popesecu, Bale, Kroos

Serie A - Totti, Savicevic, Grosso, Cordoba

Bundesliga - Kuffour, Jorginho, Jeremies

 

[Marty1968]

@Rado_N can you make a poll for us as always?

Who will win with player peaks in the specified leagues (not career peaks)?
Team Sjor Bepo/anant
Team Crappycraperson

Cheers Rado!

 

[Marty1968]

Best of luck to both teams @Šjor Bepo @anant @crappycraperson

Some personal favourites of mine in both teams.

This is the last game of the first round so this time tomorrow it's reinforcement time!

 

[Rado_N]

Poll added.

 

[crappycraperson]

Just a few starting thoughs -

- Opposition's CB pairing is great but they don't have a proper number 9 to mark or take care of here, which would have been a strength for both of them.
- I know Sjor's done a whole lot of research on Gazza's time in Italy. I don't want to make this draft thread just a referendum on Gazza's Italy time. I don't think anyone can argue that this is peak Gazza, that would be absurd IMO. In his last season at Spurs he scored 19 goals in 37 whilst in Italy across 2 seasons he scored 6 goals. In any case, how good a version of Gazza this is, I will leave it to the voters to decide for themselves.

 

[Donaldo]

Pretty easy..crappy wins this. Anants team is underwhelming IMO.

 

[crappycraperson]

 

[Gio]

Sjor's defence is class, probably the best central defensive partnership in the draft. Crappy takes the attack though, very tasty. Although I'm not sure about Bale on the left (for Real?) against that Atletico axis.

 

[crappycraperson]

One of the best CL final performance ever -

 

[KM]

Not really sure about Javi Martinez of Germany, he hasn't been the best there plus he has been extremely injured. On the other hand though Bale has been kept many times by the At.Madrid duo so I'm not sure how quality Bale will have on the left flank.

 

[Balu]

Bale on the left is a bit odd. How often did he play there outside of the short run of games when Ronaldo was injured at the end of the 13/14 season? But then, he did score that brilliant match winning goal in the cup final against Barca when he actually did play on the left.

Not really sure about Javi Martinez of Germany, he hasn't been the best there plus he has been extremely injured. On the other hand though Bale has been kept many times by the At.Madrid duo so I'm not sure how quality Bale will have on the left flank.

I'd say the treble winning season was clearly his peak season so far, so he has been at his best in the Bundesliga. It's just one season though, because he has been injured about 90% of the time since 2013.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Just a few starting thoughs -

- Opposition's CB pairing is great but they don't have a proper number 9 to mark or take care of here, which would have been a strength for both of them.
- I know Sjor's done a whole lot of research on Gazza's time in Italy. I don't want to make this draft thread just a referendum on Gazza's Italy time. I don't think anyone can argue that this is peak Gazza, that would be absurd IMO. In his last season at Spurs he scored 19 goals in 37 whilst in Italy across 2 seasons he scored 6 goals. In any case, how good a version of Gazza this is, I will leave it to the voters to decide for themselves.

Yes they dont have a proper number 9 to mark but my team will sit deep and just wait for yours to create something, there wont me much space between the lines + dont think your wingers are suited for the false nine system. In false nine system you must have 2 inside forwards to make constant unselfish runs without the ball. Real version of Bale(one of the most overrated players in the world and even if you rate him which is fine the Real boys produce jack shit against Atletico and here he is against duo from Atletico that play in similar system to theirs) certainly wont make them and Savicevic as great(one of my personal favorites) as he was he wasnt a inside forwards, he produces magic with ball in his feet and not without.

On the other hand you have Futre vs Jorginho in lots of space and i can see only one winner there. And the biggest mismatch on the pitch is Kluivert against Cordoba(173) and Kuffour(175cm). Not because they are poor but because Kluivert(188 cm) is an absolute monster in the air and he is having a big advantage in height. With the delivery of my players this should be a big advantage as should the set-pieces be. Have much more players that are good in the air and when you are playing defensive tactic its often set-piece that gives you the lead.

 

[KM]

Bale on the left is a bit odd. How often did he play there outside of the short run of games when Ronaldo was injured at the end of the 13/14 season? But then, he did score that brilliant match winning goal in the cup final against Barca when he actually did play on the left.


I'd say the treble winning season was clearly his peak season so far, so he has been at his best in the Bundesliga. It's just one season though, because he has been injured about 90% of the time since 2013.

Cheers happy to stand corrected then.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I'd say the treble winning season was clearly his peak season so far, so he has been at his best in the Bundesliga. It's just one season though, because he has been injured about 90% of the time since 2013.

One season is perfectly fine in this draft, plenty of players are picked on the basis of just one season.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

the sneaky bastard that is @The Stain just informed be via PM that crappy has 2 players from La Liga on the pitch, so while Kroos is going on the bench to change citizenship my team will have player more on the pitch

and the Kroos from La Liga isnt really a good one.....

 

[crappycraperson]

To make out your defense as similar to AM is not correct IMO. Atletico's defense is not about individuals but about the whole team setup and tactics. That does not mean you do not give credit to the individuals but that you can not take the same individuals and put them in another system and expect similar results.

Also you have claimed that all your players excelled in counter attacking systems. Is that true? Alaba and Martinez for one have played for teams that make possession a premium. Bayern's treble winning side was not a purely counter attacking one. They just got labelled that due to their take down of Barca's tiki taka. I don't think Kluivert's is the sort of striker you want to rely on a team that knows they won't create too many chances. He excelled at Barca when he ad support of likes of Rivaldo and Figo, who provide a supporting forward presence. I don't think you have another forward to complement Kluivert like that here.

There is also a different in counter attacking set ups. For example, Dortmund's is not synonymous with Atletico's. Gundogan is a box to box midfield for me who does well when he is able to defend and attack in phases. Not sure if your tactics will offer him similar exposure to attacking.

My team, having Popesecu sitting in front of defense is also a handy defense against any quick counter. That is what will allow my full backs to move forward and stretch your defense.

 

[crappycraperson]

the sneaky bastard that is @The Stain just informed be via PM that crappy has 2 players from La Liga on the pitch, so while Kroos is going on the bench to change citizenship my team will have player more on the pitch

and the Kroos from La Liga isnt really a good one.....

Yes. That's a miss on my part. 3 outfield players from each league it was.

@Marty1968 change Kroos to La liga please.

 

[crappycraperson]

? But then, he did score that brilliant match winning goal in the cup final against Barca when he actually did play on the left.
.

Yes. And there is no point to all star draft teams if you have to stick to players' position by the book. This is similar to how Aldo used Mascherano. Bale gets to play the wing forward role here, same as the one he did in Madrid. He has the attributes to do that on right or left.

 

[crappycraperson]

@Šjor Bepo @anant since anant has voted for himself. I am voting for my team too to make it even

 

[Balu]

Yes. And there is no point to all star draft teams if you have to stick to players' position by the book. This is similar to how Aldo used Mascherano. Bale gets to play the wing forward role here, same as the one he did in Madrid. He has the attributes to do that on right or left.

Considering your comments regarding Forlan's role in our team, this is a slightly surprising look on the topic of sticking to players' position by the book

 

[Šjor Bepo]

To make out your defense as similar to AM is not correct IMO. Atletico's defense is not about individuals but about the whole team setup and tactics. That does not mean you do not give credit to the individuals but that you can not take the same individuals and put them in another system and expect similar results.

Also you have claimed that all your players excelled in counter attacking systems. Is that true? Alaba and Martinez for one have played for teams that make possession a premium. Bayern's treble winning side was not a purely counter attacking one. They just got labelled that due to their take down of Barca's tiki taka. I don't think Kluivert's is the sort of striker you want to rely on a team that knows they won't create too many chances. He excelled at Barca when he ad support of likes of Rivaldo and Figo, who provide a supporting forward presence. I don't think you have another forward to complement Kluivert like that here.

There is also a different in counter attacking set ups. For example, Dortmund's is not synonymous with Atletico's. Gundogan is a box to box midfield for me who does well when he is able to defend and attack in phases. Not sure if your tactics will offer him similar exposure to attacking.

My team, having Popesecu sitting in front of defense is also a handy defense against any quick counter. That is what will allow my full backs to move forward and stretch your defense.

Lets not make any parallels with Atletico, looks like i did the same mistake as always But what i tried to say, Atletico pair play in the defensive team that likes to counter and my gameplan is the same, its not the same setup but its the same tactics, at least when we are defending.

In my opinion it is, both Alaba and Martinez proved that they can excel in the counter-attacking system. Obviously Bayern didnt play that system against anyone as they have better team then most so the teams they face are more often on the defensive foot. Same as Klopp Dortmund, they are the famous conuter-attack team but they didnt play like that in 90% of the games as its pretty difficult to play counter against the much lesser opponent who came to defend.

Kluivert will have support from both Futre and Gazza.

Like i said, im not playing like Atletico nor do i play like Dortmund. They are just used as example of players proving their quality in this given system.

Your fullbacks can push up as often as they wish, in fact my team wants them to push up as we are perfectly calm in defending distribution from wide areas and it will open the space for us on the counter.

 

[The Stain]

Yes. And there is no point to all star draft teams if you have to stick to players' position by the book. This is similar to how Aldo used Mascherano. Bale gets to play the wing forward role here, same as the one he did in Madrid. He has the attributes to do that on right or left.

Mascherano has accumulated a whole seasons worth of matches at DM for Barca hence why that whole argumentation was bizarre to me. I'm not even sure Popescu played as many as him in that position. I just looked up Bale and he has played a total of 5 games on the left in La Liga (transfermarkt).

I agree with what you're saying but if we're going by what has been thrown at us then you might want to switch things around a bit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Second in the Balon d'Or, who will stop him? Jorginho without much help of Kroos and Savicevic? I cant see it but maybe im biased....

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Why is Bale on the left? Perfect RW foil for Totti as the false 9. I'm also not the fondest of Kroos' role. Other than these problems I find Crappy'd team superior. I think Anant/Sjor's defensive unit is massive and that Crappy attack won't have an easy day

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Why is Bale on the left? Perfect RW foil for Totti as the false 9. I'm also not the fondest of Kroos' role. Other than these problems I find Crappy'd team superior. I think Anant/Sjor's defensive unit is massive and that Crappy attack won't have an easy day

Is he perfect? Yes he cuts inside and offers goals but he cuts only when he has the ball. He wont make sacrificing runs for someone else the whole game and that he needs to do for false nine to work, you need runners around that central figure and both Savicevic and Bale are better with ball in their feet. So the main base of crappy's team is crappy lol - is not working. Then you go back, and you see Popescu(im fine with his role) as DM who is dropping between the centrebacks, Jens Jeremies who offers zero creativity and Kroos from La Liga who is probably the worst player on the pitch as his performances for Real are bang average. Where will the goals came from, specially as they are facing a great defensive unit. Basically he would need an piece of individual brilliance from someone. Totti is in the limbo of the system that wont work in little space as my team will sit deep and there wont be much space to maneuver. Both Savicevic and Bale would need to play the role that doesnt suit them and all my defenders has to do with them is force them outside to cross....

On the defensive note, his attacking trio wont help much, Kroos is pretty poor defensively and im confident my wingers can get the better of his fullbacks, specially Futre vs Jorginho. And i already mentioned Kluivert vs Kuffour and Cordoba. He is a good 10 cm higher then them and is an absolute monster in the air, great jump and even better header of the ball.

So i dont really see how he has the superior team.

 

[Donaldo]

Is this the Stam from AC?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Is this the Stam from AC?

he was brilliant for both Lazio and Milan so im fine with either version....

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Kroos' status should be updated. That could be of importance to the voters here.

Also, a standard should be agreed on for the formation pics. Doesn't matter to me what site is used, but if one manager specifies what league the player represents, the opponent should do the same.

 

[Donaldo]

he was brilliant for both Lazio and Milan so im fine with either version....

Definitely wasn't brilliant for Milan.

 

[Gio]

Second in the Balon d'Or, who will stop him? Jorginho without much help of Kroos and Savicevic? I cant see it but maybe im biased....

That is a route to goal. Futre's a bit under-rated and is one of the standout wide players in the draft.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Definitely wasn't brilliant for Milan.

depending on the criteria, compared to defenders today he was brilliant.....compared to defenders back then and when you compare him to Nesta/Maldini he wasnt but in worst case scenario he was very good in the league, specially when he was played in the middle as he had few games in the right-back spot because of injuries.

 

[Moby]

Kroos' status should be updated. That could be of importance to the voters here.

Also, a standard should be agreed on for the formation pics. Doesn't matter to me what site is used, but if one manager specifies what league the player represents, the opponent should do the same.

This.
@Marty1968

 

[Marty1968]

This.
@Marty1968

Agreed. @crappycraperson please can you send me a revised team lineup with the leagues represented alongside each player name. Whilst it's written in the tactics below, it will make an easy comparison for scan voters.

Thanks and let's keep the debate going.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Kroos from La Liga who is probably the worst player on the pitch as his performances for Real are bang average

That's very very harsh.

 

[harms]

Has Bale even played on the left for Real? His career-wise best position was as a free central attacker at Spurs, but for Real he almost exclusively played on the right. And when he played on the left (taxi for Maicon ) he was a more conservative winger who didn't exactly cut inside, while on the right he would've been perfect foil for Totti. The best attribute of the early Bale was his crossing - but who is he aiming at, false 9 Totti and Savicevic? Who are against the absolute beasts like Stam and Godin?

La Liga Kross is also playing deeper than he is for crappy's team and even in Bayern I wasn't impressed at his performances as the AM/10, he benefits from having more time to think that he has when he's playing deeper.

So there it is - at the first glance I like sjor's team better. Will check out all Gazza's gifs when I'll come home and will make a decision then. And he already gets another point for doing this monstrous gif-post.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

That's very very harsh.

i thought he was overrrated from the start(in Bayern, very good player but not the great one) as he was seen as the second coming of Scholes and was everyones muppet signing. At Madrid when ever i watch him he is poor, yes him and Modrid are a bad pair but in the end of the day he is playing poor and we are judging him by those performances. You can tell that he would turn into a world beater in crappy system but whats then stops me to argue how Gazza played with idiots at Lazio(bar Signori) and in this system with quality teammates he would be peak Gazza who would then be the best player on the pitch.
Kroos is playing poor, his confidence is probably on a low and because of that he is poor in the segments of the game he usually isnt.

 

[harms]

and Modrid

Nice abbreviation

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Nice abbreviation