Lack of technical ability in the double pivot

[luke511]

A combination of Fred, McTominay and Matic as the 2 CDMs is producing some really ugly football. Pogba or VDB have got to feature in the double pivot from now, to improve the consistency of transitions from defence to attack. This is our most technically gifted starting XI in my opinion, would love to see it given a chance more. Fred could do with getting replaced in the summer probably.

Rashford Bruno Greenwood/Diallo
Pogba
Fred VDB
Shaw Bailly Maguire/Lindelof AWB​

or

Rashford Greenwood Diallo
Bruno
Fred Pogba
Shaw Bailly Maguire/Lindelof AWB​

 

[VidaRed]

----------------------------------------------------------------Henderson/DDG---------------------------------------------------------
------AWB-----------------------Bailly/Lindelof---------------------------------Maguire-----------------Shaw/Telles------
----------------------------------------------------------------------Fred/McT----------------------------------------------------------------
------Greenwood/James--------------Bruno/VDG-----------------Pogba--------------------Martial/Rashford------
---------------------------------------------------------Cavani/Martial/Greenwood-------------------------------------------------

 

[Rozay]

VDB is useless, and should not feature anywhere until he sorts his shit out.

 

[luke511]

VDB is useless, and should not feature anywhere until he sorts his shit out.

The only time we've seen a Fred, VDB, Bruno midfield vs Basaksehir at home, with VDB in the double pivot. One of our best games this season and it hasn't been tried since.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's a huge issue and why Mctominay and Fred will ultimately go to being squad players. Your midfield needs to be able to receive the ball under pressure and pass it around and help progress it up the pitch. Neither can do that at all. They aren't even specialist defensive mids so they only do half jobs in that department too. Ndidi and Tielemans showed the difference in quality, having a top class defensive mid next to a technically sound midfielder with vision and ability.

 

[Adnan]

The double pivot is bereft of quality and I've been saying the same for a very long time. The big games we've won with such a pairing has lulled a lot into a false sense of security IMO. The double pivot would be improved by signing a mediocre player like Mark Noble.

Without going into too much detail, I hope to see us move Pogba back into the role, or if that isn't feasible for Ole, then it's Hannibal time.

 

[Godfather]

I hate it with passion

 

[VidaRed]

Fred, McT and Matic starting together is suicide. Only 1 of them should ever be on the pitch covering creative midfielders.

 

[sullydnl]

When we signed VDB I assumed he would be playing in the two CM slots more than he has given he did have stints as an #8 and #6 at Ajax. His signing makes so much less sense if the plan was almost always to use him as a #10.

I think our midfield options would have seemed a more apparent issue at the start of the season had we known that. Because they're really not up to scratch as is.

 

[MichaelRed]

Fred, McT and Matic starting together is suicide. Only 1 of them should ever be on the pitch covering creative midfielders.

This literally doesn't make sense in the case of McT because that suggests McT is a defensive midfielder which he isn't and never will be.

 

[Sandikan]

When we signed VDB I assumed he would be playing in the two CM slots more than he has given he did have stints as an #8 and #6 at Ajax. His signing makes so much less sense if the plan was almost always to use him as a #10.

I think our midfield options would have seemed a more apparent issue at the start of the season had we known that. Because they're really not up to scratch as is.

It looks like an utterly baffling signing that Ole wasn't really in favour of but decided to go along with as most managers would prefer to have someone in than no-one.

To think we've lamped 35-40m on him instead of putting it towards a proper starting game changer is upsetting.

 

[Bastian]

McTominay-Fred and Matic-McTominay is a lot better than pairing the two left footed Matic and Fred together. It never looks good.

Everyone knows we need a deep lying midfielder who is technically sound. But in fairness, both Fred and McTominay have improved in receiving the ball with an attacker breathing down their neck. Tonight Fred just had a disaster game in an imbalanced side that completely lacked energy.

 

[passing-wind]

It's going to have to change eventually. I think a more astute manager could balance this midfield but Ole had some success with the 4-3-3 (Herrera, Pogba, Matic). I don't see why this isn't applied now with Bruno as an advanced 8 and Pogba as the 6, maybe Mctomminay shielding the back four. It would require better work rates from Bruno / Paul defensively but the benefit is the midfield would have far more freedom of possesion along with movement in the midfield compared to the dreadful 4-2-3-1.

 

[Red00012]

----------------------------------------------------------------Henderson/DDG---------------------------------------------------------
------AWB-----------------------Bailly/Lindelof---------------------------------Maguire-----------------Shaw/Telles------
----------------------------------------------------------------------Fred/McT----------------------------------------------------------------
------Greenwood/James--------------Bruno/VDG-----------------Pogba--------------------Martial/Rashford------
---------------------------------------------------------Cavani/Martial/Greenwood-------------------------------------------------

My eyes

 

[Red00012]

I don’t understand why we can’t play Fred as a 6 and De Beek as a 8 in a double pivot

 

[duffer]

One thing about Chelsea's "double pivot" is that there's usually at least one of Jorginho or Kovacic, both of whom are super technical players. Although I find the formation a little frustrating at times, I rarely worry that they'll lose possession in a dangerous place.

 

[Strats]

Us playing out from the back from goal kicks is due to the lack of technical ability is incomprehensible. Infuriating that we keep doing it when we lose possession or concede a goal like we did today because of Fred and Maguire.

 

[Bobcat]

Matic is done. 90% of our losses this season hes started in

McFred are decent enough at breaking up play, but lack composure and ability on the ball.

CDM and an attacker is 100% a must this summer

 

[UnofficialDevil]

That double pivot no matter who, we still be ordered to sit infront of our centre backs to cover for Maguire and Lindelof. It’s just the way Ole sets the team up.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

The only time we've seen a Fred, VDB, Bruno midfield vs Basaksehir at home, with VDB in the double pivot. One of our best games this season and it hasn't been tried since.

You’ve answered that your self. Against Basaksehir...

 

[hungrywing]

It looks like an utterly baffling signing that Ole wasn't really in favour of but decided to go along with as most managers would prefer to have someone in than no-one.

To think we've lamped 35-40m on him instead of putting it towards a proper starting game changer is upsetting.

Woodblart is the gift that keeps on giving (five-year head starts to other clubs)

 

[ReallyUSA]

You’ve answered that your self. Against Basaksehir...

Hes barely played

 

[luke511]

You’ve answered that your self. Against Basaksehir...

Still a champions league level opponent, Turkish Super Lig champions. You can see how much Fernandes benefited from having someone that moves the ball in those positions as quickly as VDB.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The only time we've seen a Fred, VDB, Bruno midfield vs Basaksehir at home, with VDB in the double pivot. One of our best games this season and it hasn't been tried since.

Still a champions league level opponent, Turkish Super Lig champions. You can see how much Fernandes benefited from having someone that moves the ball in those positions as quickly as VDB.

They're 17th in the Turkish league. They're not a Championship level opponent let alone a Champions League level opponent.

 

[luke511]

They're 17th in the Turkish league. They're not a Championship level opponent let alone a Champions League level opponent.

Fair enough, it's a great performance bad opponent or not, it makes no sense why it hasn't been given a go since.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Still a champions league level opponent, Turkish Super Lig champions. You can see how much Fernandes benefited from having someone that moves the ball in those positions as quickly as VDB.

Oh come on. Champions league level opponent?? It was the first time they have ever played in the Champions league and they lost all matches except their win against us ironically. And they are 17th in the Turkish League so please don’t to try to big them up.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Fair enough, it's still a great performance bad opponent or not, it makes no sense why it hasn't been given a go since.

I agree with that from an outside perspective. Think there have been opportunities to give it a try and frankly for the good of the club it's worth it to know whether VdB has promise or is simply a busted flush.

I apologise though- didn't mean to come across as needlessly aggressive and wasn't trying to have a go or anything mate!

 

[luke511]

Oh come on. Champions league level opponent?? It was the first time they have ever played in the Champions league and they lost all matches except their win against us ironically. And they are 17th in the Turkish League so please don’t to try to big them up.

You said it yourself, they beat us, obviously not as shit as you're making out.

 

[Cutch]

Us playing out from the back from goal kicks is due to the lack of technical ability is incomprehensible. Infuriating that we keep doing it when we lose possession or concede a goal like we did today because of Fred and Maguire.

I can actually understand it as we're basically surrendering possession if we go long to one of our front men. Greenwood and Rashford don't compete at all in the air, James is a dwarf and Martial is average at best aerially. Cavani would be our only outlet but we'd turn into Burnley if we aim for him every time

 

[UnofficialDevil]

You said it yourself, they beat us, obviously not as shit as you're making out.

Man are you kidding me? I said ironically. We managed to lose form such a shite team and it's not the first time.. Just admit they're crap and move on will you.

 

[OrcaFat]

I don’t understand why we can’t play Fred as a 6 and De Beek as a 8 in a double pivot

I’m afraid neither is good enough to do those roles. Fred lacks positional intelligence and technique. VDB is generally not good enough but I think, in particular, he lacks the physical attributes to play as an 8; we bought him at least one year too early (if we should have bought him at all).

Pogba should play 8 if he’s staying and we should buy a new 6.

Meanwhile, although terrible, McFred is the least bad option. Pogba to play at 10 or, more often, wide left in that case.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I can actually understand it as we're basically surrendering possession if we go long to one of our front men. Greenwood and Rashford don't compete at all in the air, James is a dwarf and Martial is average at best aerially. Cavani would be our only outlet but we'd turn into Burnley if we aim for him every time

But then why not go medium to one of the full-backs? Shaw and AWB are at least competitive in the air, no?

 

[luke511]

Man are you kidding me? I said ironically. We managed to lose form such a shite team and it's not the first time.. Just admit they're crap and move on will you.

Just because you said ironically doesn't change the fact they beat Man Utd, therefore a victory against them in the Champions League should be somewhat valued.

 

[Bobcat]

That double pivot no matter who, we still be ordered to sit infront of our centre backs to cover for Maguire and Lindelof. It’s just the way Ole sets the team up.

Well, thats their position. If we are going to play 4231, we abso-fecking-lutely need two holding midfilders.

Fred heatmap
McTomminay heatmap

Old maps, but i could not be bothered to look for newer ones. Both of them have more touches in the opponents half so its not like they are instructed to just hang back and sit infront of Maguire/Lindelof. The problem is that neither of them contribute enough in our build up.

McTomminay is reasonably good at holding onto the ball and can go on some decent runs, but his short passing and dribbling leaves a lot to be desired. Fred the same, minus the hold up play. None of them are good at long range passes. Vs organized defenses we have zero penetration down the middle. 10/10 attacks have to pass through the flanks since we are utterly unable to beat the first bank of press in the middle

Also, since none of them are good at long passes and we lack movement up front, we become quite predictable as well. In fact, we are dead last in the number of long balls in the PL under Ole. Not that i am a big fan of hoofing it up, but some variety would do us good

Carrick or Scholes in that midfield would completely transform us

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Just because you said ironically doesn't change the fact they beat Man Utd, therefore a victory against them in the Champions League should be somewhat valued.

Sheffield also beat us, is that supposed to mean something? Basaksehir are a rubbish team currently 17th in the Turkish League. If you want to think otherwise go ahead.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Well, thats their position. If we are going to play 4231, we abso-fecking-lutely need two holding midfilders.

Fred heatmap
McTomminay heatmap

Old maps, but i could not be bothered to look for newer ones. Both of them have more touches in the opponents half so its not like they are instructed to just hang back and sit infront of Maguire/Lindelof. The problem is that neither of them contribute enough in our build up.

McTomminay is reasonably good at holding onto the ball and can go on some decent runs, but his short passing and dribbling leaves a lot to be desired. Fred the same, minus the hold up play. None of them are good at long range passes. Vs organized defenses we have zero penetration down the middle. 10/10 attacks have to pass through the flanks since we are utterly unable to beat the first bank of press in the middle

Also, since none of them are good at long passes and we lack movement up front, we become quite predictable as well. In fact, we are dead last in the number of long balls in the PL under Ole. Not that i am a big fan of hoofing it up, but some variety would do us good

Carrick or Scholes in that midfield would completely transform us

I agree. But Carrick and Scholes wouldn't just sit in front of our defence to create a back 6 defending for most of the match.

 

[Infra-red]

Neither Fred nor McTominay are good enough to play regularly for a side that wants to compete for the Premier League or the Champions League, but they are alright if we want to play some ugly counterattacking football while scrapping it out for the top 4 and/or Europa League.

Whether they need replacing or not I suppose depends on our aspirations for next season. My guess is that we'll only buy a midfielder if Pogba leaves.

 

[Bobcat]

I agree. But Carrick and Scholes wouldn't just sit in front of our defence to create a back 6 defending for most of the match.

But as their heatmaps show, they're not a "back 6". Fred and McTommniey are usually 25-30 yards from the opponents goal when we are attacking, the problem is that they are usually very anonymous and especially Fred does little other than shuffle it out wide or take hopeless potshots from outside the box

Right before we conceded the 3rd, Fred was one of 4 players who went for the counter (and incidentally the one who fecked it up with a shit pass)

Hopefully Pogba stays fit for the remainder of the season so he can play there. Adds a whole new dimension that Fred and McTomminay cant give

 

[UnofficialDevil]

But as their heatmaps show, they're not a "back 6". Fred and McTommniey are usually 25-30 yards from the opponents goal when we are attacking, the problem is that they are usually very anonymous and especially Fred does little other than shuffle it out wide or take hopeless potshots from outside the box

Right before we conceded the 3rd, Fred was one of 4 players who went for the counter (and incidentally the one who fecked it up with a shit pass)

Hopefully Pogba stays fit for the remainder of the season so he can play there. Adds a whole new dimension that Fred and McTomminay cant give

Well I can't deny the heatmaps, but it does seem to me that they spend most of the time in front of our Centre backs in games. But I do agree Pogba should be one of the two. Like I've said before I would like to see Pogba VDB against weaker sides where we are favourites.

 

[acnumber9]

The only time we've seen a Fred, VDB, Bruno midfield vs Basaksehir at home, with VDB in the double pivot. One of our best games this season and it hasn't been tried since.

Against the worst team we’ve played all season. And they got through our midfield with ease.