Sorry I worded that wrongly. I just meant Messi, that's he's a freak but not in milage. You can't imagine Messi keep going till he's 40 like Ronaldo wants to.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Actually I kind can
I can picture Messi another season or two at PSG and then could easily see him playing another 3 years somewhere... Messi at 40 years old conducting a game from the centre circle playing for Newells Old Boys seems as plausible to me as Ronaldo goal-hanging for Sporting
Doubt. I think Messi the kind of player who wants to quit when he's at the top, but he didn't manage to unless he becomes a monster this season. Messi said Zidane made the right decision to retire at the top. I can't see Messi continuing for more than 1 season in European football.
Yeah I agree with you , besides he's already done 80,000+ minutes for club and country ( more than players who had amazingly long careers like Seedorf/ Giggs for example) and he could easily boss games in the Argentinian league if he felt like it well into his late 30s.
Not necessarily. We still have likes of Rooney and Hazard being absolutely dogshite after they reached their 30s.
Those belongs to Ronaldo age group has mostly retired or playing at lower level.
In tennis, those big 3 are GOAT, other players at similar age doesn’t that last long.
Talking about % is rather meaningless here. The real difference is only 2.87 pressure per game, which is nothing. If player A make 1 pressure and player B make 2, you may rephrase it to 100% difference, which sounds huge. But in actual it’s only 1 pressure difference per 90 mins, which is minimal.It doesn't show that at allIt's a 43% increase.
But this is the Messi thread, so let's stick to discussing the balón dor record winner.
Jota make 23 pressure per 90, Foden make 18.48 pressure, it’s 25% difference (significance less than 43%) , but in actual their difference is 4.52 (nearly double the difference btw Messi and Ronaldo), is this huge or minimal?
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Hazard had loads of injuries though when he went to Madrid. Rooney never took much care of himself. I think the sportscience bit is overstated. The vast majority are well past their prime when they get close to the mid thirties.
Yes but I can go on and names majority of top players at their age group who has decline significantly once they reach their early 30s. But sure I agree sports science bit is overstated.
Yeah most players decline past 30.
I don't think he'll play in America. Apparently Messi was very reluctant to leave Barcelona partly because his family didn't want to move elsewhere etc. And back then it was about moving a few hundred kilometres to England or, even closer, to Paris, not the other half of the globe.
If Messi plays like last season PSG would do well to get of rid him. Last season he was like an advanced old Pirlo just not as good. If he can't hit his prime levels, he simply can't justify his salary and is work rate of the ball is too poor.
That's a huge difference in this context though because if we added 2.87 pressures per game to Messi's total he would be above
Messi (9.41 + 2.87) 12.28
Son 11.47
Kane 10.93
Benzema 10.91
Depay 10.44
Lewandowski 9.68
Moreno 9.66
Son and Kane are frequently praised for their work off the ball but adding a nothing number puts him above those players so he can't be all bad (especially with the numbers he puts up in other sections).
He definitely needs to add more goals but his other stats are good vs other Attacking Mids;
| Non-Penalty Goals | 0.29 | 70 |
|---|---|---|
| npxG | 0.40 | 93 |
| Shots Total | 3.62 | 99 |
| Assists | 0.45 | 97 |
| xA | 0.33 | 96 |
| npxG+xA | 0.73 | 98 |
| Shot-Creating Actions | 5.59 | 99 |
| Passes Attempted | 68.40 | 99 |
| Pass Completion % | 85.2% | 96 |
| Progressive Passes | 9.41 | 99 |
| Progressive Carries | 12.35 | 98 |
| Dribbles Completed | 2.98 | 94 |
| Touches (Att Pen) | 4.79 | 64 |
And Fowards;
| Non-Penalty Goals | 0.29 | 40 |
|---|---|---|
| npxG | 0.40 | 73 |
| Shots Total | 3.62 | 91 |
| Assists | 0.45 | 99 |
| xA | 0.33 | 99 |
| npxG+xA | 0.73 | 93 |
| Shot-Creating Actions | 5.59 | 99 |
| Passes Attempted | 68.40 | 99 |
| Pass Completion % | 85.2% | 99 |
| Progressive Passes | 9.41 | 99 |
| Progressive Carries | 12.35 | 99 |
| Dribbles Completed | 2.98 | 99 |
| Touches (Att Pen) | 4.79 | 33 |
| Progressive Passes Rec | 4.95 | 4 |
| Pressures | 9.41 | 7 |
| Tackles | 0.52 | 31 |
| Interceptions | 0.42 | 56 |
Their work off ball does not necessarily means pressuring defenders. Spur is essentially a counter attack team last season, they do not play with high press system, rather they sit back and counter.
Hence I am afraid you interpreted the stats in wrong way.
For example, Real is counter attack team too, Benzema doesn’t really press much, he is on 10.91 pressure per 90, which is only 0.54 less than Son, which doesn’t not tell the picture at all.
Whereas Mbappe is on 8.09, which is at very low end. Do you really think he is far lazier than Benzema and Messi?
Martial is on 13.99, do you really think he works lot harder than Son?
Real Madrid averages >60% possession and plays with Kroos and Modric in midfield. They even play Benzema upfront who's occasionally outpaced by referees. Doesn't sound like a counter attacking team.
Well I'm only really responding to the conversation around pressing from the previous page and how 2.87 is a miniscule number.
Couldn't it be that there is tactical reasoning behind Messi low press stats too?
I don't think PSG played with an organised high press for example?
You are saying 2.87 is huge. It’s really not.
Messi has always been abit lazy off ball in recent years, it’s not really any surprise there, as he often recorded having the least coverage distance on the pitch.
The big surprise here was Martial, who was known as fecking lazy during our time, has 13.99, which looks very high. Whereas Mbappe only has 8.09, is at really low end.
If 2.89 is huge I don’t know what would 5.9 difference make between Martial vs Mbappe. Martial being non-stop hardworking engine vs Mbappe being hopelessly lazy as fecked?
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Well they look pretty much a counter attack team in CL semi and final. So I am basing my observation on that. But to be honest they look much stronger when they are on counter.
In this context it's huge (puts him above a host of other top forward players).
Vs Pressing Machines like Jota it's a small number obviously.
But you can’t explain what does it says about Mbappe and Martial numbers. You can’t say cherry pick Son examples and ignore the rest to draw such conclusion.
I'm not cherry picking them , I just used examples such as Benzema, Kane, Lewandowski, Ronaldo etc because they are top players at top teams .
Messi is more comparable to those players than a Diogo Jota or a Phil Foden for example.
The fact Mbappes are so low are probably in line with why Messi's are so low (PSG Tactics) while Martials are probably higher because he worked harder with Seville? He only played about 1/3 of the minutes Messi did too?
Neymar is on 16.49 with PSG, so it’s not really in line with your suggestion.
Which goes back to my original point, comparing those numbers on matter of 2-3 difference to draw any conclusion is really meaningless.
I think Neymar always pressed relatively well , for example Bruno probably has one of the highest press averages in the league but there is no chance in hell I would describe United as a team who utilized a high press.
Di Maria was probably similar.
Kind of but your original point was that;
Where you made the comparison between Messi/ Ronaldo's pressing stats and everything has kind of spiraled from there.
At the end of the day I feel that while Messi is not one of the best pressing forwards (under average) in world football I don't think I would call him the worst or near the worst.
The site you linked own reference ;
| Value | Per 90 | Player |
|---|---|---|
| High | 27.09 | Wout Weghorst |
| Average | 15.08 | |
| Low | 6.54 | Cristiano Ronaldo |
Now being reported that PSG have offered to extend his contract but he prefers to wait until after the World Cup to decide.
I'd take him at ours. Come on Leo, make it happen.
"Its clear now that it was Barcelona that made Messi look good".
While ofcourse every player requires a team that is build around them or atleast complements their style to bring the best out of them. It is silly people think that a player with Messi's natural ability would struggle
Let me help his haters counter this. “It is now clear that it was Argentina that made Messi look good”
PSG are set to play 3 preseason games against J-League teams (Kawasaki Frontale, Urawa Reds and Gamba Osaka). That is a proper old school way of setting up a preseason calendar, of which I miss United playing instead of facing 3-4 European/English opponents. Anybody feeling the same?
Sure, but it kind of concludes nothing. You can have Mbappe with 8.09 at 2nd bottom too. Does that means Weghorst>Mbappe under some system commonly used, or anything? I mean, the difference between Weghorst and Mbappe is 19, which is fecking gigantic massively huge, if what you called 2.89 is huge.
Pressing is rather overstated/meaningless stats for forward, after all its all down to manager preference of particular system (gengenpressing etc). Would most manager/team struggle to use Mbappe at all and would prefer Weghorst because of their preferred style of play? I don't think so.
Still find it weird that people say that Van Dijk was robbed in the 2018/2019 Ballon D'or. I think there is just a Messi/Ronaldo fatigue of them dominating the Ballon D'ors. No doubt that Van Dijk had one of the best ever seasons for a defender, but Messi scored 51 goals and took his playmaking to a new level. Had his name not been Messi, but anyone else I don't think there would be any doubt. For Messi that was just another normal season, which is why it no longer has the wow factor.
I wouldn't dismiss this so easily. Fact of the matter, it's been a while since one of the superstar divas (Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe, Neymar) won the UCL and arguably, the last time was also a bit lucky. In contrast, the most successful teams in recent seasons are very cohesive units with all players putting in a shift - even the goal scoring machines. Apparently, Klopp even vetoed Neymar as a Mané successor - and Neymar is still the hardest working of those four. Now Cristiano is struggling to find a club with Nagelsmann and Tuchel reportedly rejecting him.
I believe this has to change - at least in the big games. Messi for instance had 12.7 pressures per 90 in the Copa. Thing is, as good as those guys are, it is a legit question to ask whether they can really be considered the best players in the world when they aren't compatible with the best systems in the world anymore. And the collective beats individual class.
Hopefully he has a better season than the last.
This was playmaking and free kick Messi at his peak. Followed every Barca game because of how good he was. It was the season he said he'd try to bring the CL back to camp nou and he truly gave his all until Barca choked at anfield
I think Ronaldo struggle to find a top CL club is more to do with his age and being too big to manage, rather than his lack of pressing.
I could be wrong, as there could be some top managers out there who would prefer their player to fully blend in to their system (high pressing).
But I seriously doubt they would refuse to play someone like Mbappe if given the chance to do so, even the fact he is almost as bad in pressing as Ronaldo.
While ETH recently said he see Ronaldo as key player to his system. I think top managers would find a way to utilizes everyone fully according to their strengths and weakness too.
It’s more than just pressing, Ronaldo’s dribbling stats have dropped off a cliff and his athleticism is a shadow of what it was. Compare that to Mbappé at his peak, who is one of the quickest top players ever, a superb dribbler who opens and stretches games. Ronaldo can’t do that anymore or anywhere close, he also can’t hold the ball up.
Mbappé has 3.2 dribbles per game, which is similar to Ronaldo in 2010. Ronaldo now has 0.7 dribbles per game, similar to a lot of centre backs, while Mbappé can score like Ronaldo as well while having that weapon. Ronaldo’s intelligence in getting in scoring positions is still brilliant, but no top team wants a poacher unless off the bench and rotation, and Ronaldo’s ego won’t allow him to accept it, so nobody wants to touch the circus of a player being bigger than the club, when the player isn’t good enough anymore.
That’s another way of looking at that, but it also defeats the notion of pressing being important for forward, isn’t it? Of course Mbappe has other strength (pace, dribbling, goalscoring) to compensate for his lack of pressing. But Ronaldo also has something to compensate (being PL top 3 goalscorer for a start, and being clutch and scoring crucial goals is another one, and also his ariel strength inside the box would be another important factor).
Lots of Ronaldo and Mpabbe talk in the Messi thread.
Don't know. I'm pretty sure some top managers might see that differently. Especially regarding Ronaldo who of the aforementioned offers the least outside of goals. It's actually the same argument that's always been made, only now it extends to Messi in some ways: Goals aren't everything, the overall contribution is much more important.
I wouldn't say this is wrong. For example, I wouldn't know if City would be a better team playing with target man/main goalscorer with Haaland in attack, rather than spreading their attack play with more fluidity without one. Would be interesting to find out more next season, on whether the whole is more than just the sum of its parts etc.