Looking to our past to correct our future is why we are going wrong

[Josep Dowling]

I see so many suggestions as to why we are failing and there is always constant comparison with Manchester United of yester year by pundits and fans a like. I even see such things as we need to play 4-4-2 again, when this formation hasn’t been used for about 20 years by the elite clubs.

The reality is football evolves and we must evolve with it or otherwise be left behind. How many times did Sir Alex change his system to keep ahead of the rest? In the 90s we used a 4-4-2 system to great success. This changed when Jose Mourinho arrived in England in 2004. He introduced the regular use of a 3 man midfield and dominated the league for two seasons. Sir Alex and United adapted and changed their ideas to what a rival was doing in order to win. We must do the same now.

There is only one way to play football in England at the moment. Guardiola and Klopp play high press, high intensity football with lots of width. Yes they have quality players but Liverpool haven’t done everything we could have done in the transfer market. The big difference is they had a plan and knew what they were trying to achieve. Those two clubs are so far ahead of the rest I don’t think I’ve ever seen such disparity in the league. That is clearly the current way to play and so far we haven’t appointed a manager that wants to play that style of football. I’m not even sure what Solskjaer style is to be honest.

We don’t have the players to compete with those two clubs at the moment or even the likes of Tottenham. But look at Liverpool. Klopp joined and slowly there was progress and evolution in their style of football every season even if results weren’t. I haven’t seen that under any manager we have appointed since Ferguson. Under Mourinho we started to get results in his second year but most can agree the football was dire.

Adapt or die, we are certainly dying at the moment.

 

[haram]

Have a good manager, have good players, and you'll play good football.

 

[snowkarl]

Have a good manager, have good players, and you'll play good football.

How about a squad of extremely average but passhunate players with a manager who holds the highest nostalgia levels in English footy?

 

[Denis79]

I agree with all you have said but that requires planning on a higher level than just the manager. We don't have that in place.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Your post is true, something I have thought for some time but it's a very complex answer. Not to get into tactics and where we go from here but we really do need to sever the umbilical cord that's latched onto the class of '92 nostalgia or the 'United' way cloches.

As a rule moving forwards everything should be focused on the future, where will we get to and how we will get there. It's not about reverting to how we used to play or harking back to better times because that's become the hall mark of our failures. To address this we seem to have loaded the club with as many ex players and coaches as we could without any real plan, naively thinking this would magically create a new culture and winning ethos. Last year when Ole was fielding questions in the CL and every other reporter was asking about his goal in '99 it really highlighted how stuck in the past some people are, credit to Ole he did tire of the question a bit by the end but we need to nip all of that in the bud. We're in the fight of our lives to cling onto being considered one of the PL's top 4 clubs (which is already arguable) and our past only hinders us with the added pressure of the history, vocal ex players mixed with our current form.

 

[haram]

How about a squad of extremely average but passhunate players with a manager who holds the highest nostalgia levels in English footy?

Well...

 

[Eoin McMahon]

Fully agree with your points and the main one for me is the lack of a clear playing style or tactics in every game we play at the moment. This was ok at the beginning of Ole's appointment as obviously he would need time to implement his vision of how his team will play. However after getting a full preseason with the majority of the current squad and 4 games into the current season, there is still too many moments of confusion and misunderstanding that if they continue we will struggle in every game.

It is frustrating to see clubs such as Liverpool, City and even Spurs have progressed in the last few years and are playing great football and alot of this can be attributed to the identity and style these clubs have adopted. Each player knows there role on the pitch, and the players that have been bought or brought through the academies suit the role they are given. This allows the players to build an understanding and cohesion that wins games. They are setting the standard that we must try to match and then better.

This is where I feel Ole just simply isn't good enough or experienced enough for a club as big as Man United. The managers job at Man Utd at the moment is one of the toughest jobs around at the moment due to expectation, following on from Ferguson and also the serious lack of quality players in the squad that our club should have. Ole to be fair has done a great job of clearing nearly all of the deadwood players that simply aren't good enough for us and had been allowed stay at the club for too long.

However signing the right players seems to be a problem for us and this leads back to the problem with how the team will setup and what our style of play is and its culminated with big name signings for extortionate money that just simply shouldn't have happened. For any player to perform to at their best must be playing in a team and in a position and role that suits them. Many players can play in a number of areas on the pitch which is useful in case of injuries etc but there best displays will always come in their best position. So until we can sort out how we are going to play the we can sort out who is going to play.

 

[UncleBob]

Bizarre rant.

This crap about not understanding what style we're trying to play, if there is one at all, people confuse personal belief with facts. It's a bit rich seeing this coming from someone who reckoned that Liverpool should've signed someone else than Van Dijk as he's not good enough and it's a poor signing. Mint.

Oh, and Ole isn't talking about the past because we're looking to the past for solutions, reverting to how we might have played at one stage, partially it's about what the club represents, making the players focus on the history of the club they're at. Fergie did the same. It's also about putting a positive spin on things.

 

[Eoin McMahon]

Bizarre rant.

This crap about not understanding what style we're trying to play, if there is one at all, people confuse personal belief with facts. It's a bit rich seeing this coming from someone who reckoned that Liverpool should've signed someone else than Van Dijk as he's not good enough and it's a poor signing. Mint.

Oh, and Ole isn't talking about the past because we're looking to the past for solutions, reverting to how we might have played at one stage, partially it's about what the club represents, making the players focus on the history of the club they're at. Fergie did the same. It's also about putting a positive spin on things.

Bizarre? It is clear to see in the majority of games we have played under Ole, Mourinho, LVG and Moyes that fluid, dominant performances have been a rarity that were commonplace under Ferguson. Different managers with different ideas and a vision of how they would have the team play and all failed to either stamp their mark on the team or their play style just didn't fit the club or get results. Consistency is key and we haven't had that since Ferguson. Managers since then have failed to find that consistency that is the hallmark of the top teams.

 

[Class of 63]

I see so many suggestions as to why we are failing and there is always constant comparison with Manchester United of yester year by pundits and fans a like. I even see such things as we need to play 4-4-2 again, when this formation hasn’t been used for about 20 years by the elite clubs.

The reality is football evolves and we must evolve with it or otherwise be left behind. How many times did Sir Alex change his system to keep ahead of the rest? In the 90s we used a 4-4-2 system to great success. This changed when Jose Mourinho arrived in England in 2004. He introduced the regular use of a 3 man midfield and dominated the league for two seasons. Sir Alex and United adapted and changed their ideas to what a rival was doing in order to win. We must do the same now.

There is only one way to play football in England at the moment. Guardiola and Klopp play high press, high intensity football with lots of width. Yes they have quality players but Liverpool haven’t done everything we could have done in the transfer market. The big difference is they had a plan and knew what they were trying to achieve. Those two clubs are so far ahead of the rest I don’t think I’ve ever seen such disparity in the league. That is clearly the current way to play and so far we haven’t appointed a manager that wants to play that style of football. I’m not even sure what Solskjaer style is to be honest.

We don’t have the players to compete with those two clubs at the moment or even the likes of Tottenham. But look at Liverpool. Klopp joined and slowly there was progress and evolution in their style of football every season even if results weren’t. I haven’t seen that under any manager we have appointed since Ferguson. Under Mourinho we started to get results in his second year but most can agree the football was dire.

Adapt or die, we are certainly dying at the moment.

We'd switched to 4-3-3 long before Mourinho arrived, by 2001/02 it was the norm, and on the rare occasion, usually in the Champions League, we reverted back to 4-4-2 we played a specialist central midfielder wide left(Scholes, Fletcher or Veron).

And there's nothing wrong with looking back, SAF followed Sir Matt's blueprint, and Ole won't go far wrong if he copies those two greats, fill the team with hungry young lads eager to listen and learn and who aren't afraid to take risks, give the fans that and the fans will forgive you practically anything, even poor results.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Now the squad is lighter it’ll make it easier to add players with real class. We show we are a young quick team with a hungry mentality and adding in players who want to play in that environment will be easier since there aren’t “big names” in those positions. Let’s really hope United hire that DOF that can find us and sees the right fit for reach position. Ole’s job then would be man management and fluid football. He’ll get his chance and if he can’t figure out the modern game then the DOF will put in someone who will.

 

[UncleBob]

Bizarre? It is clear to see in the majority of games we have played under Ole, Mourinho, LVG and Moyes that fluid, dominant performances have been a rarity that were commonplace under Ferguson. Different managers with different ideas and a vision of how they would have the team play and all failed to either stamp their mark on the team or their play style just didn't fit the club or get results. Consistency is key and we haven't had that since Ferguson. Managers since then have failed to find that consistency that is the hallmark of the top teams.

Oh come on. After Mourinho's arrival in England, and his two excellent seasons with Chelsea, combined with our poor performances in England and Europe, this forum was full of posts about how Fergie should get the sack, past his best before date. If the majority on here were in charge, he'd have been sacked after the 05/06 season. The ideal solution was to get rid of Ronaldo, preferably in a swap deal for Robinho.

The vast amount of absolute idiots expecting instant results and this search for the holy grail that is a DOF, without understanding much else than "DOF is key to success" is staggering, people would've wanted Klopp out the door after two seasons. It doesn't exactly take long to search up the posts after Mourinho's first season in charge and the references to Klopp as a failure.

 

[UncleBob]

Now the squad is lighter it’ll make it easier to add players with real class. We show we are a young quick team with a hungry mentality and adding in players who want to play in that environment will be easier since there aren’t “big names” in those positions. Let’s really hope United hire that DOF that can find us and sees the right fit for reach position. Ole’s job then would be man management and fluid football. He’ll get his chance and if he can’t figure out the modern game then the DOF will put in someone who will.

I'm sure we'll need a DODOF as well.

 

[Florida Man]

Ed Woodward though

 

[In Rainbows]

The vast amount of absolute idiots expecting instant results and this search for the holy grail that is a DOF, without understanding much else than "DOF is key to success" is staggering, people would've wanted Klopp out the door after two seasons. It doesn't exactly take long to search up the posts after Mourinho's first season in charge and the references to Klopp as a failure.

The people who said Klopp was a failure were the Mourinho cultists. Klopp started to make Liverpool exciting, despite not getting results (improvement on Rodgers, but not to his standard). This was seen through how many goals they scored since he arrived in his first season (2nd only to Spurs).

You could clearly see he was implementing his style of football on the players.

 

[UncleBob]

The people who said Klopp was a failure were the Mourinho cultists. Klopp started to make Liverpool exciting, despite not getting results (improvement on Rodgers, but not to his standard). This was seen through how many goals they scored since he arrived in his first season (2nd only to Spurs).

You could clearly see he was implementing his style of football on the players.

And the majority still took the piss, which is my point.

It's not difficult to see what Ole is trying to implement, but implementing something and succeeding can be two very different things.

 

[Eoin McMahon]

Oh come on. After Mourinho's arrival in England, and his two excellent seasons with Chelsea, combined with our poor performances in England and Europe, this forum was full of posts about how Fergie should get the sack, past his best before date. If the majority on here were in charge, he'd have been sacked after the 05/06 season. The ideal solution was to get rid of Ronaldo, preferably in a swap deal for Robinho.

The vast amount of absolute idiots expecting instant results and this search for the holy grail that is a DOF, without understanding much else than "DOF is key to success" is staggering, people would've wanted Klopp out the door after two seasons. It doesn't exactly take long to search up the posts after Mourinho's first season in charge and the references to Klopp as a failure.

Your going way off the simple point of my post in that we are a team in constant transition and change and our team and how they set out to play has suffered massively to the point where we are struggling to win games be it the lesser teams to the top teams. We seem to be unable to put together a cohesive team which is ridiculous considering the money spent on players.

Funnily enough its instant results that got Ole the permanent job in the first place and its everything afterwards which has raised doubts which is commonplace in the modern game. My major concern which you haven't seem to have grasped is lack of progress and while of course time is needed for a manager to mold a team but how much time is enough.

 

[UncleBob]

Your going way off the simple point of my post in that we are a team in constant transition and change and our team and how they set out to play has suffered massively to the point where we are struggling to win games be it the lesser teams to the top teams. We seem to be unable to put together a cohesive team which is ridiculous considering the money spent on players.

Funnily enough its instant results that got Ole the permanent job in the first place and its everything afterwards which has raised doubts which is commonplace in the modern game. My major concern which you haven't seem to have grasped is lack of progress and while of course time is needed for a manager to mold a team but how much time is enough.

I didn't even quote you.

Look, i don't expect much, i've already pointed out what the debates where on here when Mourinho arrived in England and first won the league, how we were clueless and inept due to sticking with Ferguson.

Complaining about lack of progress after taking over at the stage Ole did last season, and 4 matches into the new season, is daft. After the amount of years we've gone with the wrong managers, expecting progress this early is absurd. We're still at the point where we're trying to sign the right players and get rid of the wrong ones, miles away from having a settled team. Players need to adapt, get a better understanding between them.

Not sure why people struggle to see what Ole is trying to implement. I can understand complaints about perhaps being naive in our approach to tactics, but actually arguing that there appears to be no style..

It's hardly a big surprise that an unsettled team still trying to find it's feet is struggling to break down compact teams that defend deep while looking for a draw. Just as it wasn't a surprise that we'd find it more difficult playing against Wolves than Chelsea. What to expect is that there's an improvement throughout the season, quicker transitions, better understanding on what we need to do against teams that play deep.

 

[Eoin McMahon]

I didn't even quote you.

Look, i don't expect much, i've already pointed out what the debates where on here when Mourinho arrived in England and first won the league, how we were clueless and inept due to sticking with Ferguson.

Complaining about lack of progress after taking over at the stage Ole did last season, and 4 matches into the new season, is daft. After the amount of years we've gone with the wrong managers, expecting progress this early is absurd. We're still at the point where we're trying to sign the right players and get rid of the wrong ones, miles away from having a settled team. Players need to adapt, get a better understanding between them.

Not sure why people struggle to see what Ole is trying to implement. I can understand complaints about perhaps being naive in our approach to tactics, but actually arguing that there appears to be no style..

It's hardly a big surprise that an unsettled team still trying to find it's feet is struggling to break down compact teams that defend deep while looking for a draw. Just as it wasn't a surprise that we'd find it more difficult playing against Wolves than Chelsea. What to expect is that there's an improvement throughout the season, quicker transitions, better understanding on what we need to do against teams that play deep.

If you scroll back 6 posts you'll see where you quoted me but anyways I see from this post that we're close to agreeing but your point on the struggle for people to see what Ole is trying to implement is that it is hard to see exactly that.

The progress I wanted to see coming into this season on the back of a good preseason was how the team would setup and how we would play and that is something that should have been the one of the main focuses of preseason. Barring Oles first 10 games where we looked great and seemed to have a cohesion and style of play that suited the players and was getting results every game since has seen that early promise vanish and we have started this season in the same way we finished last season.

Every manager needs time but Ole has half a season and a full preseason to have a formation, tactics and style that suits the team and gets results. Jose and LVG had this problem too and it meant for constant changing of the formation and team selection. If Ole can replicate how we played for his first 10 games brilliant but if we continue to look like a team of individuals and not a team then questions need to be asked.

 

[Siorac]

And the majority still took the piss, which is my point.

It's not difficult to see what Ole is trying to implement, but implementing something and succeeding can be two very different things.

You can't expect objectivity regarding the Liverpool manager on a Manchester United forum. Of course the majority took the piss for as long as they could.