Ludo Draft R1: Sjor/Pat vs GSTQ

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

....................................... TEAM SJOR/PAT ........................................................................................ TEAM GSTQ .................................................


TEAM SJOR/PAT

Formation: 4-5-1

How do you compete against a Murderers' Row of a forward line like the GOAT-fest sported by the opposition? For us, the answer is to prioritise collective team shape and workrate, and adopt the deeply unsexy but highly effective credo of Norway's 1990s arch-pragmatist Egil Olsen:

Team Motto: "å være best uten ball" ("be the best off the ball")

The general setup would be a "defensive" one, we have 10 players on the pitch that will work their socks of in defensive side of the game but in the same time they are all brilliant footballers, perfect combination. All are very disciplined tactically so going counter-attacking was a bit of a no brainer, specially considering opponents because if we open up we are dead and here we would be tough to break and we are confident we can hurt them on the break, the difference in work off the ball would just be too big.

The main tenets here are:

1) Collective Workrate: Simply put, every one of our outfield players will work their balls off. Our CF Denis Law typifies the ethos, allying all-time great finishing with a furious workrate and appetite for battle.

2) Pragmatic Formation: Brutally hard to break down when we get our men behind the ball, and hard to hit on the counter too with Rijkaard playing a screening role and such numbers and quality in midfield.

3) GOAT-quality defensive spine: Schmeichel in goal, Kohler as stopper and Rijkaard as DM are as good as it gets in their respective positions and for the task at hand. Throw in an excellent defensive organiser in Zmuda, two assiduous two-way FBs, and two ferocious B2B generals and it's going to be a tough nut to crack for any team.

4) Two-Way Midfielders: The obvious worry with a 4-5-1 formation is that the CF gets isolated. Law's own formidable attributes reduce that risk, and the nature of our midfield players mitigates against the problem further, with Robson, Gazza and Barnes in particular having the mobility, attitude and technical ability to bomb forward in support of Law all match long.

Gazza role

After the backheel came a nutmeg, Gascoigne on Matthäus. It was barely noticeable, because of the camera angle, the whirl of legs and its essential insignificance, near the halfway line and with Gascoigne losing the ball seconds later. But it was a reflection of his intrepid approach. “You would say, ‘You’re going to play against Rijkaard,’” recalled Waddle in Three Lions Versus The World. “And he would say, ‘Who? Who’s he?’ He didn’t care who he was playing against, and it wasn’t an act. He would say, ‘I’ll introduce them to Paul Gascoigne.’”

“Gascoigne had strayed in the match against Cameroon,” said Robson in a BBC interview years later. “I said to him, ‘Listen, if you do that against Germany Matthäus will come striding through our midfield and stick two goals past Peter Shilton from 25 yards, because that’s what he can do, so you can’t chase the ball.’ ‘Boss’, he said, ‘sit back and enjoy it, I know what I have to do.’ This is Gascoigne talking to me like this! So I looked at him and said, ‘I know you know what you have to do, but will you do it?’”

He did it. “The fact he was going to play Matthäus thrilled him,” said Robson. “He was going to adore that challenge and he was going to win it. And he did. He was better than Matthäus.” His defensive discipline was firmly evident after half an hour, when he blocked Völler’s cross from the right of the area with Shilton out of the game.

You would never associate Gazza with discipline going by his life but tactically he was superb and very disciplined, knew where to move and when to move and boy did he move, insane engine on him. He wouldnt be fazed by Di Stefano nor anyone in the opposition team, if anything that would motivate him even more as he was like that, whenever he faced top dogs and he faced a lot of GOATs he was always on his game, always. Baresi and his Milan entourage probably still have nightmares of Gazza running at them. Defensively he would help out midfield, when in possession he would go where ever he wants, Benarrivo would offer width on that side. Effenberg is also there to protect.

Individual battles
Team battles in our opinion we have in the bag, where queen has the edge is individual quality but we think we are ready for it and we have very good solutions to stop them.
Di Stefano vs Rijkaard - battle of GOATs, we can hardly ask for a better fit.
Garrincha vs Lizarazu - little frenchman was great defending 1v1
Kocsis vs Kohler - good luck with that
Puskas vs everyone - this one would require more of a team effort and with tactical awareness and workrates of our players we can confident we can push Puskas on fringes of the game.


TEAM GSTQ

Team Mentality : Score more goals than the opponent

Manager Mentality : Blame the mods for the rubbish last round of drafting in case the team doesn't do well

Specific player info -

1. Why is Czibor on the right - He was a free roaming player and although his best position was on the LW, he could play from anywhere in the front. He played on the right wing in the 1954 WC final and scored.

2. Why is Zebec playing the role of LCB - Zebec really was an immensely versatile player who played almost everywhere on the pitch during multiple phases of his career. In the late 1950's, he was considered one of the best CB's in the world.

3. Why is Zito mentioned three times - All other names are bigger and 4 lettered Zito was making the picture look asymmetric and ugly. Hence 3 times.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Šjor Bepo @Pat_Mustard @GodShaveTheQueen All the best!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Few thoughts on the Madrid lads

Not much needs to be said of Di Stefano and Gento's work rate.

Anyone who has had the please of watching Real Madrid's games from that era would tell you both worked their socks off.

While its well known about the Don, you don't often see that side of Gento's game appreciated (at least I have not seen that here, maybe I am wrong). Its no wonder that most of his attacks started from very deep, sometimes just outside his own box.


A bit on the Hungarians from Ferenc Puskas

A fairly well known quote. Epitomizes the ethos of that Hungarian team from the early 1950's

When we attacked, everyone attacked, and in defence it was the same. We were the prototype for Total Football

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

Good luck mate.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

lets move vids out of the way right away

Gazza vs Rijkaard and Gullit

Gazza vs Balon d'Or Sammer

Rijkaard vs Real Madrid

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Few thoughts on the Madrid lads

Not much needs to be said of Di Stefano and Gento's work rate.

Anyone who has had the please of watching Real Madrid's games from that era would tell you both worked their socks off.

While its well known about the Don, you don't often see that side of Gento's game appreciated (at least I have not seen that here, maybe I am wrong). Its no wonder that most of his attacks started from very deep, sometimes just outside his own box.


A bit on the Hungarians from Ferenc Puskas

A fairly well known quote. Epitomizes the ethos of that Hungarian team from the early 1950's

Di Stefano really was like two players in one but from what i saw from Gento i wouldnt really describe him as a hard working player, he wasnt lazy dont get me wrong but id say he played like an average player from that era, most of the time he had the luxury to save himself for attacking phase while Di Stefano for example was going up and down for 90 minutes.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Di Stefano really was like two players in one but from what i saw from Gento i wouldnt really describe him as a hard working player, he wasnt lazy dont get me wrong but id say he played like an average player from that era, most of the time he had the luxury to save himself for attacking phase while Di Stefano for example was going up and down for 90 minutes.

I'll have to strongly disagree on Gento.

And when you say 'played like an average player from that era', you don't need to go very far to compare him with someone.

The other great LW from that era was of course Czibor. I watched a couple of games of his as well this week and you could see the great amount of difference in the work rate and average position vertically on the pitch.

I didn't have time this week but I will take some time out during the weekend and make Gifs. Of course one could best grasp the idea of work rate through watching the full games.

 

[harms]

There would always be a problem with the 50's defensive line though, which is well compensated by that attacking unit. Although Gascoigne won't test Zebec like a devastating wing dribbler a-la Garrincha/Best to be fair.


Czibor on the right in this formation is something that I don't particularly like though. When he played on the left he would either put a low cross to Puskas, who was closer, or a high one to Kocsis who was on the other side of the box. They are obviously not as static, but a low cross from the right has a fewer chance of getting to Puskas in his starting position — and it's harder to score if you're expected to meet the ball from a high cross at the near post.

He (Kocsis) told me to stop crossing low for Puskas, that if I’d put more crosses in the air we’d have scored even more. Puskas was the greatest player in the world. I don’t think anybody else would have dared take issue.

The protester nevertheless had a voice that commanded attention. Czibor took heed and began to alternate between low and high crosses. The critic duly vindicated his half-time outburst by scoring twice en route to a 6-0 victory. They contributed to him retiring having netted a preposterous 75 goals in 68 internationals and almost a hundred more headers than Dario, the Brazilian who sits second on the list of football’s all-time aerial kings. Those stupefying statistics pay testament to why Sandor Kocsis could challenge even the immortal Puskas.

Puskas had the best left foot and Kocsis was the best header of a ball I'd ever seen. The bad thing was that when we crossed the ball, we were always going to disappoint one, because one would want it on the floor and the other in the air. The good thing was that if we got the cross right, nine times out of ten it would result in a goal.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I'll have to strongly disagree on Gento.

And when you say 'played like an average player from that era', you don't need to go very far to compare him with someone.

The other great LW from that era was of course Czibor. I watched a couple of games of his as well this week and you could see the great amount of difference in the work rate and average position vertically on the pitch.

I didn't have time this week but I will take some time out during the weekend and make Gifs. Of course one could best grasp the idea of work rate through watching the full games.

Its just what we define as hard work really....compare Gento with Seeler for example who i classify as a hard working player and the difference is night and day.

 

[harms]

I'll have to strongly disagree on Gento.

And when you say 'played like an average player from that era', you don't need to go very far to compare him with someone.

The other great LW from that era was of course Czibor. I watched a couple of games of his as well this week and you could see the great amount of difference in the work rate and average position vertically on the pitch.

I'd agree with @Šjor Bepo on Gento's workrate. I specifically looked into that as I wanted to use him in a similar fashion, but he was rather mercurial in the defensive phase and often turned off from the episode — unlike Czibor (and Di Stefano, obviously).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Its just what we define as hard work really....compare Gento with Seeler for example who i classify as a hard working player and the difference is night and day.

Of course, there will always be tiers when it comes to any quality. It can't just be Savicevic and then jump to Seeler.

Why Seeler, you already have the best comparison in his captain, Di Stefano. Night and day.

But for me, he was hard working with good pressing, not just on the flanks but centrally as well. A lot of his counters started centrally before he eventually drifted wide.

I wish I could make some Gifs, I'll give it a shot in a few hours.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'd agree with @Šjor Bepo on Gento's workrate. I specifically looked into that as I wanted to use him in a similar fashion, but he was rather mercurial in the defensive phase and often turned off from the episode — unlike Czibor (and Di Stefano, obviously).

Hmm, which game did you watch? Maybe I could pick the same one as well and compare notes if the full game is on youtube. I know how to make gifs only from youtube

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Czibor on the right in this formation is something that I don't particularly like though. When he played on the left he would either put a low cross to Puskas, who was closer, or a high one to Kocsis who was on the other side of the box. They are obviously not as static, but a low cross from the right has a fewer chance of getting to Puskas in his starting position — and it's harder to score if you're expected to meet the ball from a high cross at the near post.

He wasn't too much of a crosser from the right side. Was more of a wing forward who roamed and drifted a lot (even from the left of course).

He was much more of a Bale than Giggs for me, but often gets used as Giggs with the crossing theme repeating over and over again, draft after draft.

 

[harms]

Wait, you've left Garrincha on the bench?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Of course, there will always be tiers when it comes to any quality. It can't just be Savicevic and then jump to Seeler.

Why Seeler, you already have the best comparison in his captain, Di Stefano. Night and day.

But for me, he was hard working with good pressing, not just on the flanks but centrally as well. A lot of his counters started centrally before he eventually drifted wide.

I wish I could make some Gifs, I'll give it a shot in a few hours.

If i called him Savicevic you would know as i said, i dont think he was lazy and his workrate was decent for that era but if you compare him with hard workers from his time you see the clear difference.
Think we can all agree Di Stefano was freak of the game so IMO its unfair to compare anyone with him + used Seeler as someone who played on the wing just like Gento.

 

[harms]

Hmm, which game did you watch? Maybe I could pick the same one as well and compare notes if the full game is on youtube. I know how to make gifs only from youtube

Quite a few of them — not only Madrid ones but also some Spain games, versus Brazil in 1962 for example, of which I've made a compilation. I think it was more about his stamina, he more often saved his breath to hit the other team on the counter with his incredible pace.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Wait, you've left Garrincha on the bench?

tbf he is playing against @Šjor Bepo so you can hardly blame him for resting players

 

[harms]

He wasn't too much of a crosser from the right side. Was more of a wing forward who roamed and drifted a lot (even from the left of course).

He was much more of a Bale than Giggs for me, but often gets used as Giggs with the crossing theme repeating over and over again, draft after draft.

Fair enough.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Wait, you've left Garrincha on the bench?

I had different plans for Garrincha but they can't be used against this team.

Quite a few of them — not only Madrid ones but also some Spain games, versus Brazil in 1962 for example, of which I've made a compilation. I think it was more about his stamina, he more often saved his breath to hit the other team on the counter with his incredible pace.

I have seen the Brazil 1962 game and from what I remember he was the primary outlet for Spain's attacks in that game. He didn't have the riches of Real Madrid around him. Of course, I didn't watch it from a workrate point of view, but in general, he played a way lot higher up the pitch.

A good game to choose would be from one of Real Madrid's UCL final. I will choose one available on youtube and post few instances when I get time.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If i called him Savicevic you would know as i said, i dont think he was lazy and his workrate was decent for that era but if you compare him with hard workers from his time you see the clear difference.
Think we can all agree Di Stefano was freak of the game so IMO its unfair to compare anyone with him + used Seeler as someone who played on the wing just like Gento.

Yea, the onus is on me to prove it as my view if different from the general consensus. In a few hours hopefully or over the weekend.

 

[harms]

A good game to choose would be from one of Real Madrid's UCL final. I will choose one available on youtube and post few instances when I get time.

Yeah, I think it was the same when I watched their game with Eintracht, but it was a while ago to be fair.

 

[Indnyc]

Wasn’t Zebec a more attacking fullback? Not sure I buy him in a WM

 

[harms]

Wasn’t Zebec a more attacking fullback? Not sure I buy him in a WM

Like some of the pre-TV players he was apparently world class as a winger, fullback of sorts and a center back. There's definitely some truth to that but to what extent do you tend to believe it is on you.

After all that, he was transformed into a CB (but he also continued to play as winger/attacker, wing half and full-back) and he was very good on that position. During the one of the most important games for the national team (qualifications for World Cup 1958), in which Yugoslavia played against Romania he played as CB. Many claim that this was his best game for national team at that position. Every high ball was his (very superior in the air), he won every 1 on 1 play against opposite attacker, also during the game he was in every place in the defense. In one word: Perfection! One of the coaches came to him after the game, grab his shoulder and said: "Are you a man or are you a beast? I've never seen anybody playing the whole 90 minutes so perfect and without any mistake!"

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Wasn’t Zebec a more attacking fullback? Not sure I buy him in a WM

Quite a few things wrong there.

1. It's not a WM.
2. While Zebec was an attacking full back, his best days as a defender were as a CB centrally.

He was a very versatile player. He was considered among the top 3 left wingers in the world in the 1954 world cup along with Czibor and Schafer. You'd never see him used as one here though

I don't blame you about the Zebec part though. I have heard the same thing over and over again and gotten tired of correcting them. Quite a few great quotes from his CB days.

 

[Indnyc]

Like some of the pre-TV players he was apparently world class as a winger, fullback of sorts and a center back. There's definitely some truth to that but to what extent do you tend to believe it is on you.

I don't deny that he can play CB but i would consider him to be a left winger more than a CB

Quite a few things wrong there.

1. It's not a WM.
2. While Zebec was an attacking full back, his best days as a defender were as a CB centrally.

He was a very versatile player. He was considered among the top 3 left wingers in the world in the 1954 world cup along with Czibor and Schafer. You'd never see him used as one here though

I don't blame you about the Zebec part though. I have heard the same thing over and over again and gotten tired of correcting them. Quite a few great quotes from his CB days.

Huh? The team sheet looks like a WM to me?

Zebec from what i have seen was an attacking player.. His best performances for me came at Left wing

I don't see him as an ideal fit for the formation that you are playing here

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Huh? The team sheet looks like a WM to me?

Well, it's not. Look closely.

I don't see him as an ideal fit for the formation that you are playing here

Fair enough. You are definitely entitled to your opinion. Cheers

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Wasn’t Zebec a more attacking fullback? Not sure I buy him in a WM

He was versatile. I read when he played against France, despite playing as winger, he was tasked to handle Kopa defensively and successfully neutralised him all game. He should be fine there, esp as Gazza ain't a proper winger.

 

[Himannv]

Huh? The team sheet looks like a WM to me?

It's an MM.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Huh? The team sheet looks like a WM to me?

WM is 2-3-2-3. What you are seeing here is 3-2-3-2.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I had different plans for Garrincha but they can't be used against this team.

In what situation would Czibor on right be better than Garrincha?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

In what situation would Czibor on right be better than Garrincha?

It's not about being better. He is not better by any stretch of imagination.

1. I never picked Garrincha for this formation. I built 4 different formations and Garrincha makes into only 2 of those.

2. One other reason was I have been watching Czibor a decent bit since the last draft (Faced him in the last draft against Pat and found his assessment quite inaccurate from fellow drafters over the old threads). So I wanted to play him in a different role and responsibilities from the usual. I was very surprised to learn that he was naturally right footed a few weeks ago.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Say what you want about the arguments, but my match threads are always super active

Great start to the game with a lot of neutral views.

 

[Indnyc]

It's an MM.

WM is 2-3-2-3. What you are seeing here is 3-2-3-2.

Tomayto, Tomahto.

 

[harms]

It's an MM.

It’s called WW

 

[2mufc0]

Rally like that midfield of Pat and Sjor.

I'm guessing ADS will be playing more deeper here to help out @GodShaveTheQueen ?

 

[Moby]

I like how both managers have their love for United flowing out in their teams with both gone for non-functional right wings.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Rally like that midfield of Pat and Sjor.

I'm guessing ADS will be playing more deeper here to help out @GodShaveTheQueen ?

Define more deeper.

He was well known to drop into full back and sweeper/CB positions on a regular basis let alone deeper into the midfield.

Might be tough to drop him any deeper without offending Yashin

 

[Moby]

Also, Garrincha being dropped in favour of Czibor as a right winger is really a true reflection of how far the draft hipsters have gone into harassing people and making them so scared of having any kind of individual ability and flair and pinned the audience into appreciating workman like teams, in a bloody fantasy game where one of the motives to play is envisaging some of the great combinations that never happened in real life. This Thomas Muller cult has gone too far into sucking the entire joy out of these tournaments. lol

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I like how both managers have their love for United flowing out in their teams with both gone for non-functional right wings.

Non functional? Hmm