It's not the magic solution so many think is it. I'm not against hiring a director of football but the issue is the same person who has been hiring our managers will be hiring our DoF.
Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)
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That's a very simple way of looking at things. Imagine just now that YOU are in charge of Manchester United. Now, I don't mean any offence to you but I think it's safe to say that the great ivaldo is not quite clued up on how best to do this. But even you can probably find a good Director of Football who can do the work for you. This moves the onus away from yourself and you can focus on doing what you do best: Posting on Manchester United forums. Now you can do your job well, and he can focus on managing that end of things.
Beforehand, Woodward, along with input from his managers, was the Director of Football. He has acknowledged that this is not his area of expertise and is moving on from the role. I guess it would be like you (Forums Poster) hiring a Public Relations manager (Director of Football) to go alongside your accountant (Manager) to cope with all the glorious fame that comes with being a forums poster. Now you can focus on posting while the PR guy and social media guy do all the fantastic work earning you money by making you look amazing regardless of what you say.
PS. Don't take this as a dig at your posts, this is just the only thing I know about you so I had to come up with the best analogy I could with that limited information.
Even people like us can get a good DOF? I think you severely understate the importance of a correct person for the DOF.That's a very simple way of looking at things. Imagine just now that YOU are in charge of Manchester United. Now, I don't mean any offence to you but I think it's safe to say that the great ivaldo is not quite clued up on how best to do this. But even you can probably find a good Director of Football who can do the work for you. This moves the onus away from yourself and you can focus on doing what you do best: Posting on Manchester United forums. Now you can do your job well, and he can focus on managing that end of things.
Beforehand, Woodward, along with input from his managers, was the Director of Football. He has acknowledged that this is not his area of expertise and is moving on from the role. I guess it would be like you (Forums Poster) hiring a Public Relations manager (Director of Football) to go alongside your accountant (Manager) to cope with all the glorious fame that comes with being a forums poster. Now you can focus on posting while the PR guy and social media guy do all the fantastic work earning you money by making you look amazing regardless of what you say.
PS. Don't take this as a dig at your posts, this is just the only thing I know about you so I had to come up with the best analogy I could with that limited information.
If you read the piece on Dortmund, then he is reponsible for the philosophy, the transfer and the hiring of manager.
Getting this wrong could mean we will be in the doldrums for a long long time.
Quite the opposite, I think it's supremely important. I also think it's not a difficult thing to identify the kind of DoF you want. Finding a good DoF is a lot easier than finding a good manager, in my opinion (I guess actually getting them might be difficult sometimes, but hopefully not for a club of our stature). I imagine we all know the kind of philosophy we're looking for at our club, and we'll know the moment the DoF is unveiled whether or not the right choice has been made because we will know from their past history whether or not they are in tune with it.
My opinion is that you can find a solid DoF at clubs outside of the big five leagues because the philosophy and man-management skills are more important, and you can see the results in the teams cohesion and style at the youth level through to the signings for the firs tteam. Finding a manager outside the big five leagues is a huge gamble because you don't know if they can get results at the highest level, and managers are about short term results and keeping players happy with you despite you being the person who often doesn't pick them for whatever reason, etc. The DoF can be buddy-buddy all year round because they don't control the team selection or tactics. Managers have the tougher time, hence they need to be proven to handle egos etc.
Which DoFs would you be happy with, of those being touted? Would you be happy with Mitchell, who is being touted?
My opinion is that you can find a solid DoF at clubs outside of the big five leagues because the philosophy and man-management skills are more important, and you can see the results in the teams cohesion and style at the youth level through to the signings for the firs tteam. Finding a manager outside the big five leagues is a huge gamble because you don't know if they can get results at the highest level, and managers are about short term results and keeping players happy with you despite you being the person who often doesn't pick them for whatever reason, etc. The DoF can be buddy-buddy all year round because they don't control the team selection or tactics. Managers have the tougher time, hence they need to be proven to handle egos etc.
Which DoFs would you be happy with, of those being touted? Would you be happy with Mitchell, who is being touted?
If reports are to be believed and OGS will have some transfer funds to spend in the new transfer window then who is calling the shots regarding our transfer targets ?
Surely, they can't allow OGS to spend money if he is only interim ?
Surely, they can't allow OGS to spend money if he is only interim ?
more accurate is that Woodward got promoted to his current post and didnt just start his job. He was already on the board as executive vice chairman and was not an outsider. He was the most senior executive brought in by the glazers. So he would have been well aware of, even if not fully involved in, the selection of Moyes
@cheeky_backheel yep, would have been involved for sure if he was on the board. But I'm equally confident that Gill would have been the one making the call at the time. SAF would have pushed it and Gill would have accepted it and signed it off, and it would have been made concrete as the thing that was going to happen before Mourinho was on board. I know we all say it was 100% SAF decision but really it would have been a board decision to go along with it. I still think it was right to let SAF push it. I actually still wonder to this day how much better/worse off we'd be if Moyes was given the three seasons that LVG and Mourinho got.
Excellent post.
Though the problem was both the managers were exactly expected to do what they did. The players these managers like are exactly opposite to each other. The style they play is exactly opposite to each other and both of them have burnt enough bridges with the players in the past that the current top class players which suit the styles are not interested to play old school football anymore, while ditching our 26 year old traditions with sir alex's style as well.
Yeah, I figured.
So has half of that board left because there getting away scott free st the minute considering only David Gill has left.
That's atleast a step in right direction i guess.
Mitchell has never worked as a DoF. He's someone that works under a DoF, and is currently working as the head of recruitment at Leipzig under the their DoF Ralf Rangnick.
Interesting article which states Woodward wanted a DoF but Mourinho was against it, which cast a shadow over their working relationship.
Why? What are you basing this on? Why is my ability to find a director of football any better than my ability of finding a manager? If anything, I'd say from a personal standpoint, and I think you would be the same, I know far more of managers and the nuances of their jobs than I do of DoFs.That's a very simple way of looking at things. Imagine just now that YOU are in charge of Manchester United. Now, I don't mean any offence to you but I think it's safe to say that the great ivaldo is not quite clued up on how best to do this. But even you can probably find a good Director of Football who can do the work for you. This moves the onus away from yourself and you can focus on doing what you do best: Posting on Manchester United forums. Now you can do your job well, and he can focus on managing that end of things.
Beforehand, Woodward, along with input from his managers, was the Director of Football. He has acknowledged that this is not his area of expertise and is moving on from the role. I guess it would be like you (Forums Poster) hiring a Public Relations manager (Director of Football) to go alongside your accountant (Manager) to cope with all the glorious fame that comes with being a forums poster. Now you can focus on posting while the PR guy and social media guy do all the fantastic work earning you money by making you look amazing regardless of what you say.
PS. Don't take this as a dig at your posts, this is just the only thing I know about you so I had to come up with the best analogy I could with that limited information.
Either way, the onus, the weight of expectation, is still with the original decision. You need to be right in the first place.
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Of course he will. He's the boss of the club.
Yeah can't see us signing anyone in January.
Unless the targets were already predetermined by our scouting team, I doubt we spend also.
Before making an appointment the clubs Board needs to agree on what that DoF role actually is?
With two senior managers at logger heads (as Ed and Jose often seemed to be) it seemed what was really wanted, in the simplest sense, was a referee, to hold the ring and get a balanced view on what the other two are arguing about, and then make their own recommendations to the board in order to break the log-jam! That kind of triumvirate structure can work at the top, but it needs the board to be hundred percent committed to the ideals that underpin it!
Now Jose has gone and Ole in his caretaker role you would suspect will be little more than the 'head coach', (not sure what Mike Phelan will actually do other than calm down the hot heads}, the precise role for the new permanent Manager needs to be thought through from scratch, the precise relationship with Ed Woodward and any new DoF role, defined in policy, structure and application of organisational development.
United's board at the moment seems light years away from such perception, appointing a DoF will to some be akin to "buying a dog and barking yourself' and that's as far as it might get!
With two senior managers at logger heads (as Ed and Jose often seemed to be) it seemed what was really wanted, in the simplest sense, was a referee, to hold the ring and get a balanced view on what the other two are arguing about, and then make their own recommendations to the board in order to break the log-jam! That kind of triumvirate structure can work at the top, but it needs the board to be hundred percent committed to the ideals that underpin it!
Now Jose has gone and Ole in his caretaker role you would suspect will be little more than the 'head coach', (not sure what Mike Phelan will actually do other than calm down the hot heads}, the precise role for the new permanent Manager needs to be thought through from scratch, the precise relationship with Ed Woodward and any new DoF role, defined in policy, structure and application of organisational development.
United's board at the moment seems light years away from such perception, appointing a DoF will to some be akin to "buying a dog and barking yourself' and that's as far as it might get!
What 'they' can spend is relative to what goes through their accounts (obviously). We have more money going through our accounts so we can spend more, much more (also obviously).
Honestly not sure if serious? Surely everyone knows by now that FFP is a farce and certainly doesn't stop City or PSG from spending an abundance of state funded oil money?
Sorry to have to ask but are you acting stupid on purpose? If not then go read up and learn before acting like you understand what you're saying. Ta.
What about Edwin van der Sar?
By all accounts he's doing a great job at Ajax, and knows United's DNA as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing a blend of United's DNA and Ajax's total football become our future philosophy.
We could also still get Paul Mitchell in as head of recruitment.
By all accounts he's doing a great job at Ajax, and knows United's DNA as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing a blend of United's DNA and Ajax's total football become our future philosophy.
We could also still get Paul Mitchell in as head of recruitment.
The head coach and DoF need to be on the same page or else it may cause problems. Paul Mitchell working under a DoF like Monchi or Berta would be something i'd like to see. But the most important connection is the DoF and head coach..
Oh I understand what FFP is supposed to be, but I assume you've not seen any of the Football Leaks, where it's pretty obvious City and PSG have threatened their way out of FFP sanctions by waging a war in court for years. I can't remember the quote exactly, but it goes to the tune of "I would rather spend 50m on lawyers in court over 10 years than pay UEFA a single euro" from one of the money men.
And the fact that Infantino have been outed helping both City and PSG avoid FFP while he was employed by UEFA making the rules for FFP.
Yes, we make more money than both City and PSG, but the money we make is nothing compared to what these multi-billion dollar sheiks are making, and are funneling through the clubs in various dubious and outright illegal ways. F.ex how PSG got Neymar paid through being a representative for the WC in Qatar, money coming straight from the country into Neymars bank account without having "anything" to do with PSG.
According to the Football Leaks these clubs have seriously violated FFP rules, with the current FIFA presidents blessing, and they will continue to do so, with little to no repercussions.
I'd think that Ole's job is to look happy and say nice things about the players. Phelan's job is to look like an old Utd stalwart.
So whose job is it to do the mgmt now?
Ole can't say anything negative about anyone. Maybe that means we can't look for new players lest we imply that the old players aren't wonderful. We might hurt their feelings!
Maybe the players are picking the next manager. Or Pogba's agent.
This is a fantastic post, I know people are worried that any DoF or such will still have to go through Woodward, well, yeah? It will be the same for any club with a DoF, there's no way a DoF will be left to do whatever they want and spend whatever they want, the appointment will just be to help Woodward with making footballing decisions, which is what we want, this way we can still get the noodle sponsors and such whilst also having a proper footballing structure in place helping Ed in what should be going on on the football side of it.
VDS is the CEO of Ajax, not their DoF. Marc Overmars has been the DoF for the last 6 years.
I would hope that rather than 'lets make plans for the beginning of next season' theres more of an outline for the next 3-5years. I think we need to line up our signings and sales over a period of years, rather than targeting the fixes for each season.
Theres been too many blatant signings that we've missed, because we are targeting players to fix a specific issue.
If this is true it at least shows Woodward is aware of his own shortcomings and is putting his egho aside and wants to recruit help.
I've been reading the same reports for awhile now. Mourinho seems to have been the stumbling block. I think big changes are coming personally. Think a DoF along with Paul Mitchell will arrive to work on our recruitment strategy.
You're thinking too far ahead mate. I'm more worried that Woodward can't even get the right person for the DOF.
However, like a certain "Tim Sherwood" has said, if he does indeed get Paul Mitchell in and then Poch then I concede he does know what he is doing, a little.
I am using "a little" because if he is at all competent for the size of Man Utd he should get us someone of Klopps calibre. But because I know he isn't I will have to make do with Poch.
Just make all my decisions for me from now on. Excellent post.
The problem with your logic is that Mourinho does not negotiate the transfer fees. Thus isn't it unfair for him or any manager to bear the consequences of someone elses failings?
As an example, we couldn't secure Morata for less than 90m and was rumored we had a 60m offer declined. So we end up signing Lukaku for 75m+ but Chelsea then got same Morata for 58m. That is about 30m over payment we were facing.
Similarly on Fred, I dont think anyone can say he was worth the 52m we paid. Even in the case of Toby, there is something wrong somewhere if Levy was willing to miss out on 50m for 1yr service from Toby ( a notion I seriously doubt) or Perisic where Inter, who had FFP issues, were demanding outrageous amount (rumored to have been pissed off by our lowballing approach).
To me, such poor negotiating and relationships with other clubs have wasted our funds and limited our transfer options, which would leave any manager not so pleased having to deal with the resulting lesser squad.
On another note, you have cases like shaw, where the club refuses to buy a new LB cos they believe in Shaw or a new CB cos we cant sign anyone better than our 5th choice ( a ridiculous idea given our mediocre bunch). The manager has to have the final say on what the squad needs and if you don't trust his judgement on that, you should fire him not overrule him.
Hopefully a DoF is better equipped in dealing with transfers and the manager can be confident that things have been handled well enough.
The problem with your logic is that Mourinho does not negotiate the transfer fees. Thus isn't it unfair for him or any manager to bear the consequences of someone elses failings?
As an example, we couldn't secure Morata for less than 90m and was rumored we had a 60m offer declined. So we end up signing Lukaku for 75m+ but Chelsea then got same Morata for 58m. That is about 30m over payment we were facing.
Similarly on Fred, I dont think anyone can say he was worth the 52m we paid. Even in the case of Toby, there is something wrong somewhere if Levy was willing to miss out on 50m for 1yr service from Toby ( a notion I seriously doubt) or Perisic where Inter, who had FFP issues, were demanding outrageous amount (rumored to have been pissed off by our lowballing approach).
To me, such poor negotiating and relationships with other clubs have wasted our funds and limited our transfer options, which would leave any manager not so pleased having to deal with the resulting lesser squad.
On another note, you have cases like shaw, where the club refuses to buy a new LB cos they believe in Shaw or a new CB cos we cant sign anyone better than our 5th choice ( a ridiculous idea given our mediocre bunch). The manager has to have the final say on what the squad needs and if you don't trust his judgement on that, you should fire him not overrule him.
Hopefully a DoF is better equipped in dealing with transfers and the manager can be confident that things have been handled well enough.
No, he doesn't, but surely you agree that Mourinho is very aware of how transfer dealings operate and that such things are volatile. This is why he is very much part of the board that decides this stuff - he is very aware of how much is being quoted, what the situation is. He should very well know that if a great CB isn't confirmed yet, then it is a gamble to buy a player you quite frankly refuse to play because you don't have the CB's to play him. And, as mentioned in my post, you can hardly blame the rest of the board for not wanting to pay £70m for a good CB when Mourinho has already got five of them, the CB isn't a world-class CB (this is debatable of course), and two of the five CBs he's already got were his own purchases which he is now saying aren't good enough. There comes a point that you have to look at the manager and tell him that if they aren't good enough, perhaps he needs to do better. Mourinho is supposedly a defensive manager who is great at managing people, yet he can't get his CBs performing. Why would you want to pay £70m for Toby at that point? Again, transfer dealings are volatile and you don't always get your man. You suck it up and get on with things. This has been the way at every single club throughout transfer history.
I completely agree, but this is not a new problem for United at all. Sir Alex complained of it on a regular basis, for a good decade. No value. We get given United prices. This is a problem we have to live with as a big club with a lot of money. However, we can find value on occasion, which is why we need to not just give in every time someone negotiates a high price. If we did that, we'd be fleeced every time. It's important for a club to be able to say to another club, sorry, we will not pay that price. If we did it every time then we would be seeing Morata and Toby situations even more regularly. It's a tricky line to walk - each time you say "You know what, yeah, we'll splash out for this player because he's worth it" every other club points to that when you try to buy a player from them. You have to manage this kind of stuff. For Levy, I am not so surprised he would turn down £50m (if he actually did get that offer, I don't know) because this could be the difference to his and United's side that could push him out of the Champions League. £50m is a lot of money, but Levy has always been shrewd and he will know that when United are competing for CL spots with his Spurs side, weakening his team while strengthening his opponent is not a great plan. I'm sure he was thinking he'd be able to get Toby signed up for one more season but you never know what's going on behind the scenes.
Yeah, I imagine a DoF will be significantly better equipped. I think that's one of the main things we are wanting to solve. I'm pretty sure there are 50 or so DoFs in Europe that are better equipped than Ed when it comes to transfer dealings - probably one of the main reasons that he has been wanting one since the start of the year!
I've got a feeling that Phelan might be in contention to be the DoF.
I think he might have been brought in to re-acquaint himself with the club and the squad. The added benefit will be that he's a shoulder to lean on for Ole for 6 months.
After Solskjaer leaves, he'll move upstairs with first-hand knowledge of the playing staff. Then he'll be responsible for resetting our club philosophy to what it was during the Fergie days. Having seen everyone in training, he'll know exactly whom to sell and who has the potential to train on with the next permanent manager.
On the face of it, it could be a perfect strategy by the board with virtually zero downside.
I think he might have been brought in to re-acquaint himself with the club and the squad. The added benefit will be that he's a shoulder to lean on for Ole for 6 months.
After Solskjaer leaves, he'll move upstairs with first-hand knowledge of the playing staff. Then he'll be responsible for resetting our club philosophy to what it was during the Fergie days. Having seen everyone in training, he'll know exactly whom to sell and who has the potential to train on with the next permanent manager.
On the face of it, it could be a perfect strategy by the board with virtually zero downside.
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Sounds good
Just the small matter of him being not even remotely qualified for such position, United boardroom have made some daft decisions since Sir Alex retirement but this would take the cake even Moyes appointment had some merit this would be just plain stupid.
Didn´t know until today, that Man Utd wants to introduce a Director of Football.
I think it´s a very good descision. You need a powerful strategic position for an intelligent man with a lof of football insights, experience on the highest level and "club dna".
At Bayern i would have liked to see P. Lahm as the Director of Football. But that didn´t happen becauce Uli Hoeneß is not (yet) willing to give a way power. Maybe in some years, if Salihamidzic fails.
I also heard that Barca likes the "bayern model", where former players get important positions at the club. I don´t think a "club dna" is nessecary for every important position at a football club, but if there is one position, then the Director of Football.
I think it´s a very good descision. You need a powerful strategic position for an intelligent man with a lof of football insights, experience on the highest level and "club dna".
At Bayern i would have liked to see P. Lahm as the Director of Football. But that didn´t happen becauce Uli Hoeneß is not (yet) willing to give a way power. Maybe in some years, if Salihamidzic fails.
I also heard that Barca likes the "bayern model", where former players get important positions at the club. I don´t think a "club dna" is nessecary for every important position at a football club, but if there is one position, then the Director of Football.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_football
There are different kinds of DoF's. Phelan would be brilliant as a 'General Manager' at the very least.
Also, the board have a working knowledge of Phelan's exact qualifications. They can broaden or narrow his remit as required.
Woody can keep doing the board-room negotiations. Phelan can look after the football side.
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